Yep, still here. WH (Toolman77) most likely not seeing OW (for newbies, OW is 21, we're 41, 43 respectively). Haven't posted b/c really don't have much to say. I've been plan A'ing. WH recognizes my efforts, but cannot seem to break his habits of LB's. I've gone through the whole spectrum of emotions: fear for family (2 children 5, 9), fear for marriage, fear about affair, anger about affair, frustrated with lack of progress, and now, ambivalence. I'm just marking time here. M/C has been really good about embracing MB techniques, and worked through our EN questioniarres, etc. We've spent hundreds of dollars, dozens of hours, but I see no progress. I'm still going to do the things H sees important, (housekeeping, childrearing, cooking, diet & exercise, etc.) but my heart isn't in it. This isn't for the M anymore. I don't see any hope of us ever getting back to where we were. The bank has been in negative numbers too long, so I won't EVER go looking there for any EN's again. Don't know, and really don't even care if WH sees the OW (girl) again. I'm emotionally unconnected to this relationship--no more opening up, dropping down walls, just to be hurt again.

Glad to see your back...I was wondering what happened with you guys.

You sitch does not sound ideal. Ambivalence is no way live in a marriage. I hope this is just a down day/week in the recovery roller coaster. If not, at what point do you cut your losses???? Are you setting a time limit before you say enough...you either change or I am moving on???

Keep Plan A'ing but do it for yourself. You can't change him. You only control you. I hope things get better.

Mr. Wondering

I admit I'm not familiar with your story. I can identify with some of the things you feel. What kinds of LB's are you talking about?

I am terribly sorry you are feeling hopeless about the situation. I know that isn't a fun place to be.

I think what ima feels are LBs are my attempt at being honest and open, so we can understand and meet each others needs. Ima takes them as a personal insult, not as the intended challange for improvement and offer of support - i feel like she intentionally misunderstands and seeks conflict. I certainly do recogize ima's efforts at 'domsetic support' and 'family commitment'. I am working at her needs for 'conversation' 'affecction' and 'admiration'. So far, my efforts have not been enough for ima to count, so I am redoubling them. While I agree we have made no progress in a few areas/ENs, we have made good progress in others: We have a solid understanding of each others needs and how we would like them met. We can work as husband and wife to run our family smoothly without much disagreement. We have learned to have reasonable, productive discussions about almost any marriage or family issue. Our time and money at MC has been well spent I think. In most ways, we are no longer disfunctional. That said, I agree we are far from a 'happy' marriage (if such a thing exists).

cut the crap toolman..

are you in 100000000000000% no contact with the CHILD

ARK

Its true we have made little or no progress on the remaining empotional needs 'sexual fulfullment', 'physical attractiveness' and 'admiration'. It appears we have very different deep rooted beliefs. Its my understaning that ima beleives sexual fulfullment and admiration MUST come unconditionally. For me, they are intertwined with physical attractiveness and emotional stability. Ima says she will not look at it any other way. Ima says my need for physical attractiveness is vanity the worst of the seven deadly sins. I think her need for unconditional admiration is pride the root of all sins. And so we are stuck.

And then there is 'affection'. I find it nearly impossible to show affection in the face of very unpleasant, uncivilized behavior. The red-faced shouting, threats, insults, fear of destruction and violence, alcohol and fear of the next bender is more than I can withstand. I am at the outer limits of my physical ability to absorb (digestive problems, hives, etc) and have withstood far more than most husbands would tolerate and for far longer. Ima says this behavior is my problem - it is because of me and when we divorce it will disappear and she will become her wonderful real self - it is my problem to deal with alone becuase 'this is who i am' she says. Ima is very much a 'my way or the highway' person. And there we are.

Are you going to answer ark or are you going to talk more smack?

Crap? Smack? thats nice - why dont you be more specific? None from me for over two months, last attempt by OW around a month ago and no replies from me whatsoever. What is your point?

I wasn't trying to be nice, I was trying to find out how long it has been since you spoke to the OW. That was my point. Thanks for answering.

Here's a suggestion that always works to resolve conflict in my marriage. Instead of worrying about what I am "getting" out of this deal, I, instead, focus on what I can do to make my partner happy. It works wonders.

Scenario #1: "what am I getting out of this deal???" <-----leads to constant conflict

Scenario #2: "what can do for him that would make him the happiest?" <----------leads to reconcilation and acceptance

When I focus on what I can do to make my H happy, we seem to relax. And when I do things for him, he wants to do things for me. This attitude dramatically changes the atmosphere.

Toolman,I understand what you are saying. One of your EN is a calm and beautiful wife. Unfortunately, we all have limitations. B/S's in paticular are very sensitive and raw with feelings of insecutities of not "being enough" for the w/s. I can also see your wife feeling there is no way to compete with a 21 year old in the looks department. I am sorry, age does things to men and women alike. You, I am sure do not look like a 21 year old man. Granted your b/s should learn to control the lb's such as outbursts, but please be understanding enough to know that these are unfortunately, normal for a b/s to have, ESPECIALY, if there is still CONTACT with the O/W.

If you are still having contact with o/w, your thinking will be cloudy, leading you to be super critical of your wife's looks, behaviors, etc. In order for you to start accepting your wife, and her love for you, you must not have ANY CONTACT what so ever. Forever.

Please be honest with your wife. She needs to know what she is up against. If you still are seeing the o/w, she needs to know this, so she can make the necessary decisions for what is right for her and your family.

I think what ima feels are LBs are my attempt at being honest and open, so we can understand and meet each others needs. Ima takes them as a personal insult, not as the intended challange for improvement and offer of support - i feel like she intentionally misunderstands and seeks conflict.

your wife is extremly hurt....and your sudden interest in honesty and openess is a good thing...but it cause great conflict and pain...

why now
how now

how can the same person that has an affair..suddenly be sooo interested in honest and open communication...

and I am saying this to you to help you step outside the box and see how it feels to be her.....

your age and the OW age is a huge huge issue to deal with...
she didn't have the life experiences needed compared to you....and there is a taint of you taking advantage of her...

which is a big issue...

toolman....
are you working on YOUR issues...
or are you focused on your wife's

ARK

ImAnotherone,
Is it true you are drinking too much and having angry outburst??

These behaviors are the worst Lb's.

Drinking never helps. Please seek outside help if alcohol has taken over your life.

Drinking never solves any of your problems but only makes them worse. If you feel overwhelmed, as many b/s's do, please see your dr. for a.d.

I know it is hard to control your emotions when you feel so raw and feeling insecure about whether the contact has ended, or you measure up to o/w but the outburst are very counter productive. Yes, you do need to set boundries for husband, and you do need to communicate how his behavior has affected you, but it needs to be in a way that is not lovebusting. If you can't trust yourself not to lovebust, type out what needs to be said, use us to critique and offer suggestions of changes to how things are being written or said so as not create lovebusters.

I don't want to insult you, so, please don't take offense.

Have you been trying to make yourself more attractive??

Makeup? Hair looking good? Clothes nice???

Or are you wearing, old ratty warm-ups with slippers, no-makeup or hair style??

I take toolman's need for attractiveness with a grain of salt, mainly because his critism of your looks will be tainted if he is still in contact with o/w.

Good point, I have been focused more on my wife's issues than mine. I do have issues too and work on them, maybe I just don't see them as being as hard on the marriage. Maybe they are in ima's eyes, I'll think about it. Thanks.

"and I am saying this to you to help you step outside the box and see how it feels to be her.....

your age and the OW age is a huge huge issue to deal with...
she didn't have the life experiences needed compared to you....and there is a taint of you taking advantage of her..."

Can you fill me in on this -- "huge huge issue to deal with" -- excuse my ignorance i just did not see it as taking advantage. I realize it makes it that much worse for the B/S. Is there some other lesson I am missing that I need to realize from this? Maybe I should talk about it with my counselor?

On the issues within the marriage thing...

Remember this...YOU can't change Ima....just as SHE can't change YOU.

But...you can change yourself. Think about MelodyLane's comments above on how she handles conflicts within her marriage.

If you change the things that you can control, it can lead your wife to change things for herself. Bluntly friend...my wife STILL does a number of things that I don't like. DJ's at the drop of a hat, AO's, etc... But...I can't change that. What I CAN change is how I react to them. And by changing my response, it has drastically improved our relationship. And at the same time, she seems to do this behavior at least a little less frequently now...and my hopes are that she'll stop doing it eventually. But, if she doesn't, we'll be fine, because I have changed how I react to it.

Get the picture?

If you want to improve the marriage, work on YOUR half of it...not hers. And let her work on her half. Once you're both doing your own part, you're likely to have a lot less that you both have to work on together.

toolman/...

you picked the most vulnerable and easy person on the planet to have an affair with...

a girl...
six years ago she didn't even have a period...

she doesnt' the life experiences needed to compete equally with a grown man with children......whose life experiences are way beyond hers...just based on the number of years on this earth.....

you robbed her time she should have been spending with people and boys her age...
AND
you offered her a very warped view of marriage, fidelity, and honor....

you picked an easy target to dabble with..and you might want to explore deeper the meanings YOUR actions and choices in this affair....

to me thats not some soul mate issue of equals..
it is a huge imbalance of power and knowledge that feeds the older partner and robs the younger...

where was that going...

gonna go home and have dinner with her mom and dad...

I appreciate your ability to hear me out on this...

are you thinking that it would be acceptable for your daughter when she is 21 to be with a man in his 40's...
or would you want to meet that guy at the door with a shotgun...

it's unequal in a normal single dating scene...
in a affair scene its even more insidious....

ARK

I got the picture, thanks. Certainly is much better to work on yourself than futile trying to change someone else. Would you mind giving some examples of AOs and DJs? - are we talking about the same type of episodes?

ima also uses the words "pick" and "choose". Foul I say! I feel like more it was the OW who chose me, that I was the sitting duck taken advantage of in a bad spot. (boo hoo poor me?) Imbalance of power not at all no way. This is not for sympathy, just to point out I am not some kind of scheming predator, and everyone has moments of weakness.

I said to ima if i were to 'choose' to have an affair, which I would not, that it would be with someone close to my age, a mom not some party girl. The word 'affair' is technically correct -- it may be minimizing, but the A was certainly not the long term relationship that comes to mind with that word. At that time I was more "vulnerable and easy" than the OW. I did not trick, seduce or rob her - you have a misconception of who I am and what actually happened. Of course I would not want my daughter to be with someone so much older.

Toolman,

My w/h fell for a woman young enough to be his daughter, he didn't do it on purpose, he was in a situation where he had daily contact with her, they exchanged confidences back and forth, and he fell in love with her. He did not plan to fall in love with her, and I know if he would have known the outcome, he would have taken steps to prevent it.
It was very inappropriate.
He knew it. It was wrong.
He admits that it was wrong.

What was your situation?
Why don't you think what you did was wrong?
21 versus 40 something ????????
How did this happen, and what could you have done to prevent it from happening in the first place.