And the funny thing is that if he ever left with her, she would dump him quickly. It's just sad. My WH is living with OW who is 20 years younger. I know it won't last, but I'm done.

But I would get an alarm clock for your daughter. She will feel much better when she learns to be responsible for getting up herself.

I'd like to see you start taking care of yourself. Don't expect him to do anything for you. As you start recovering, it will make it much easier on you. You will be able to stand your ground and do what needs to be done.

Thanks Believer. Actually, I HAVE been doing a pretty good job of taking care of myself. I've lost 15 lbs, and my blood pressure has dropped 20 points on both systolic and diastolic. I'm feeling more confident, and folks are noticing. I do, however, think I need to cancel this girls' trip I have planned this weekend. I won free tickets to Vegas on the radio station, and they expire at the end of the month (I haven't used them in a WHOLE year!!). Anyway, it's clear WH is going to make my life miserable if I go, and I don't want him trying to turn the kids on me while I'm gone. I'm going to go see my lawyer tomorrow, and we'll draw up the papers. Hopefully, I can get Toolman served next week, and we'll be getting this show on the road.

DD has a wonderful alarm clock--she just needs to sleep in her bed to hear it. I will tell her that in the morning, since she's so worried about being late. Good point again, Believer. BTW, she usually is the first one to rise, automatically. She gets up and takes a bath all by herself. She's one of these competition cheerleaders, though, and they have her practicing tumbling and stunts late into the night right now to get ready for their first regional. I know, she's only 9, but she's very dedicated. This will all have to stop soon, though, because we won't be able to float the 3 grand plus per year to keep her in the program.

Thanks for suggesting I read your thread. Toolman writes the way my H talks. My H even says some of the very things -- that it's my way or the highway, that she's the one who pursued him (so therefore it was OK?), that the problem is my perception, that I think that getting rid of him will solve all my problems, that I should be committed to work through the marriage and the problem is I'm not...

I see no indication of concern for how you feel. None. It's all self-justifying BS.

Cherishing

Hi imanotherone, I rarely visit here anymore, but your post caught my eye. Sorry to hear what you're going through. My STBXWH left 5 years ago for a much younger, married employee and they're still together, so it actually can last longer than anyone would've thought. We, too, own a business together in CA, and it's costing a fortune to get a divorce. I've been running the business alone since STBXWH left and I send him a check every two weeks as pre-payment on what I owe him to buy out the business. He hasn't worked since he left. He already forced the sale of our "dream house" so he could buy a house for himself and MOW and I've been living in a travel trailer for the past year (saving my share from our house for his pay-off). I ended all contact 3.5 years ago.

I agree with believer at this point that my WH did me a favor. It's not what I wanted when I got here, but a lot has changed since then. I'm 54 and average looking, too, but hope someday to get another chance to get all those needs met you're talking about, as well as to do a better job of meeting someone else's needs than I did with my WH.

Well here I am again. Stuck. Toolman lays this huge guilt trip on me about how the kids will be ruined forever if we divorce, and that it will be all my doing. I guess I'm going to have to talk to a child psychologist or two to get the real low-down on this issue. I don't want to screw up the news breaking to the kids, so I'm back in limbo.

Already, I can feel the signs of resignation coming back. I've got a twitch in my eye that started this morning and won't go away. I can feel my heart racing. As soon as I'm done writing this I'm going to curl up in bed.

I don't understand how D can be so devastating to children, that having a miserable, disrespected mother is preferable. This marriage is going no where good. Part of me thinks that I should go on this trip tomorrow and hope the plane goes down. At least that way the kids will get a nice settlement, and I won't have to live in this misery anymore. I know that sounds crazy, and I really don't want to be dead, but right now I feel dead inside. This can't go on, "just for the sake of the kids."

If it were me, I would take the trip. Sounds like you need a little fun for a change.

Glad you are losing weight. Hope you are exercising. That will make you feel better.

I would continue working on myself. Try to eliminate the LB's. Your WH is a big jerk (sorry Toolman, I guess that was a DJ), by comparing you to a 21 year old, and saying he needs physical attractiveness.

Divorce is very harmful for children. But so is also harmful if their mother doesn't want to live any longer. Have you thought about taking anti-depressants?

We're both on antidepressants. I've tried prozac, paxil, lexapro, cymbalta, and currently wellbutrin

He's tried the whole spectrum as well, and is on a coctail of prozac, xanax, and clonopin

Between us we've read books, including HN/HN and been to at least 100 MC sessions with at least 4 different counselors in the past 10 years.

Fact is: if all that does not help, maybe there is something REALLY wrong here that cannot be fixed.

Just for clarification, not saying I want to be dead, just saying everyone might be better off if I were. Not feeling suicidal, just exhausted and resigned to being miserable.

"Not feeling suicidal, just exhausted and resigned to being miserable."

Well that doesn't make a great mom.

I suggest you detach from your husband and work on yourself. A person can be happy with no help from their spouse. Just realize that he is not going to be the one to meet your needs. Once you stop expecting anything from him, you will at least not be disappointed.

Do things with your friends, enjoy your children, and liven up your life in other ways. It is quite possible. I was completely miserable when WH first left, until I got busy. Then I realized that there was not too much to miss about him.

As the saying goes there are three sides to every story -- her side, his side, and the truth. There are so many half truths, mis statements, out of context quotes, and just plain vengence in this string that I could write a book about it. So, if anyone of you is interested in really understanding our problems please ask, so you can have a fair chance at grasping the third side. I'd love to read your responses to my side of things. Shame on you.

Is there any value to his side of the story? single choice
	Yes, lets hear more.
	No, its all BS.
Votes accepted starting: 12/01/05 03:38 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Define BS:

If

BS = overt lying then

no

else if

BS = lying by omission then

yes

Toolman = never once (that I see) admitts or discusses A.

else if

BS = total confusion + fear + hurt then

yes

else

unknown

end if

Toolman, I wonder if perhaps it would be good to let your W run her thread and your have your own for a while? I'll happily pick on you in your own thread all you want. (Just kidding about the picking on you part).

With prayers

It would probably be better for Toolman to have his own thread. I can see that he looks at things much differently than his betrayed partner.

Maybe some of the more calm posters can help him. I give him credit for posting, because many WS's never do. But I don't think I'm sympathetic enough to help him. The fact that he doesn't see a married man with kids having an affair with a 21 year old as very inappropriate gives me the creeps. Then when he tries explaining that he was not looking for an affair and she chased him, it makes me even angrier.

So I'll try to help his wife pull the knife out of her heart and heal. Hopefully someone else can talk to him.

The whole thing makes me sad. From the outside, it looks like these two are very blessed - children, a place on the beach, a business. But they both have to be on meds to tolerate each other.

OH MY GOOD LORD!!! HELP THIS MARRIAGE AND FAMILY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'm a long-time lurker. I created an account to respond in this thread.

First, I'm in the same age group as IAO and Toolman, so I fully understand IAO's feelings about the OW being so young and how it must make her feel about herself. But, betrayal is betrayal, whether the OP is 20 or 40. It sounds to me like there were so many problems in this marriage, that an affair was going to happen sooner or later to one of them. It would be helpful if Toolman would talk more about why he was ripe for this affair and take some responsibility for it, but everyone has completely ganged up on him and never given him a chance. IAO just trashes him. If Toolman were trashing her to this degree, he'd be run off the forum. Lack of sex is no excuse for an A, but really... how many husbands could go 8 years and only have sex three times and not have left?

It sounds to me like Toolman cares at some level about the marriage. He's shown an interest in recovery. Can I ask you, Toolman, if you miss your old wife and the friendship you had before you two got at each others' throats? Do you really want your marriage back, is there any love left, or are you only being motivated by the ulterior reasons that she assigns to you?

It sounds like you two really loved each other at one time and were close friends. It also sounds like neither one of you is willing to let go of the animosity of the last few years and remember your old feelings for each other. At this point, it does seem pretty hopeless if you two can't be civil to each other. One of you has to disengage from this nasty spiral you're in and show some kindness to the other.

Why is there no sex? If you guys could get past that hurdle, maybe you could find the reserves to let go of so much pride and remember a bit of what you once felt for each other.

Anyway... I want to hear Toolman's side. I'd like to see IAO talk more about what created the problems and her share in it and what she needs to stay in the marriage. It sounded like right after the initial exposure, that you both went through a period of trying. Why did you both give up and why are you both so adversarial with each other? Is one of you willing to stop being such a jerk to the other one? Toolman, I got the impression that IAO really needed some major reassurance that you cared about her and wanted her. It really sounds like the only reasons she thinks you want to stay with her is to maintain your lifestyle and use her like a maid and a nanny. Is that true? If you care about her, make sure she knows it. And keep repeating it and showing it by action, because she's got a lot of forgiving to do and a lot of wounds to lick. Since you're the BS, maybe you should be the one to bend over backwards to make her feel loved and wanted again.

IAO, I can understand your rage, but it doesn't sound very productive. If Toolman really does love you and is willing to change, would you be receptive? Can you remember why you loved him before all this and why you wanted to save the marriage after the A?

I don't think it's time to throw in the towel yet. I've seen huge turnarounds in seemingly hopeless situations--myself included. I really do think that people should be trying to help you both determine if you want to keep trashing each other to the point of no return, or if you two really do want to try to get your relationship back. All I see now is a lot of venting from IAO and a lot of cheering her on. I think everything is too volatile at this point to really know whether the M is savable or not.

Believer,

I've been reading your posts for a couple of years and I really do think that you offer great support and suggestions to people and that you're a good person. So, please don't think that I'm coming down on you, because I respect you a lot.

I think that in this situation with IAO and Toolman, that it's too close to your own pain and too raw. And I'm saying this as someone in my 40's whose husband was interested in a 20-year-old. So, I've been furious and hurt and felt old and ugly. That said, as hurtful as it is for the wife when a middle-aged man strays with a young woman, it's really not biologically sick or anything. And it was completely socially acceptable until a few years ago. Old crusty 60-year-old men used to marry teenagers with no one even blinking and the young girl's family happily pocketed the dowry. And I really don't find it all that unbelievable that Toolman wasn't seeking the affair. She could've easily been chasing after him and IAO even stated that she believed that Toolman had had chances in the past and resisted. People screw up and have affairs for all sorts of reasons and good people who love their families can give into temptation. Although the fact that Toolman's OW is 20 years younger is additional hurt for IAO, IMO, it's not the main issue with these two.

Their issue is the state of their marriage before and after the A. Hopefully, Toolman is telling the truth and this is the only time he's cheated and he wouldn't have cheated if the marriage had been happy. Only he knows if he's being truthful about that. If IAO and Toolman are to survive, they have to address the major problems they have in their relationship and rebuild their love for each other. His A has caused a ton of pain for IAO, but it's possible that they would've gone on for years in their miserable state if things hadn't come to head from the A. This A could be the reason they try to save their M if they don't let it destroy them.

GrownUp -

Glad you decided to sign on and start posting. You gave them some good advice. I really wish their marriage could make it, since they seem to have so many good things in their life.

And I do apologize to Toolman for calling him a jerk. That isn't helping the marriage at all. You are right. It is much too close to my situation.

I'm sorry that you've been through so much pain, Believer. I hope that there are lots of good things in your future.

Got in a car wreck today, driving the kids to practice. First accident I've been in in over 20 years. First one EVER to be my fault. No damage to either car, no injuries to me or the kids. The guy I his is a professional insurance scammer though. Started acting all zombie, then jumped out of this car and started taking pictures. (Of what, I don't know, since neither car had any damage.) Then he decided to lay down in the middle of the road on this busy throroughfare and just be nutz. I called the cops and an ambulance. What a nightmare! His lawyer (one of our local ambulance chasers) was on speed dial on his cell phone. Just more [censored] for me to deal with. Toolman was very nice to come out and give the kids a ride to the practice, and meet me afterward. He's being pretty understanding about this, which is cool, since I'm obviously mentally not all there right now. Good news was that the kids were fine, (DD even asked if we hit the guy--she thought I just hit the brakes hard.), and the police were totally on my side. I didn't get cited or a ticket, which is another good thing. Still....

Ok, so I've decided I'm going to take my trip tomorrow, if for no other reason than to get my head back on straight.

There were several questions about why we hadn't had sex in so long. First off--I'm not frigid. I really, really, really miss it. So much sometimes I ache. Toolman really seemed to lose his interest in me about 3 months into my first pregnancy, almost 10 years ago. We've never been the same since. My figure is awful--I've gone from being probably a 8 1/2 to a 2 1/2 on a scale of 1-10. I knew this would happen. I've never gained or lost weight until my pregnancy, because I knew it would be really tough to take off. Until children, my weight never fluctuated--no "fat clothes/skinny clothes." Toolman has been repulsed by my physical appearance, and wouldn't ever even approach me about sex. Now it's gone on too long to recover. I'm about 50 lbs heavier than the woman he married. My skin isn't as tight anymore, I have wrinkles on my face. It wouldn't matter if I dolled myself up in nice clothes and pretty hair and make-up. Underneath, my husband will always see me as a fat pig. Given that, I wouldn't want him to ever try to be intimate with me.

Most folks think that when a R goes on so long without any SF, it must be the woman's fault: she's frigid, non-orgasmic, or uses sex as a weapon. My case couldn't be farther from the truth: I have a strong, very frustrated libido, and witholding sex sounds like cutting off your nose to me. I don't deserve to be in a relationship where my spouse is repulsed by me and chooses to sleep with a 21 year old. I think I've said this somewhere before, but in my mind, I keep remembering that the last time H and I had any kind of sex, and it really couldn't be called SF, his girlfriend was 17 years old. Can't get past it--keeps replaying over and over.

I don't know what to do--I'm just going to tread water for a while and hope I can get my footing back. Unlike most of the BS's here, I'm not fighting for the M anymore. Folks might say I've given up too easily, but when you look at the big picture, all the counseling, medication, books, etc., we haven't come very far.

So sorry that you got in an accident. That happens a lot with BS's. Thank goodness everyone was okay.

I really hope you will go away for a couple of days. You really need it.

You deserve to have some SF. There are lots of men that WOULD be attracted to you. I'm 16 years older than you, and very average. I'm finding lots of guys that are interested. Just waiting for my divorce.

Don't let yourself believe that you are worthless or unattractive. Your husband has a problem, but not all men do.

In my less self-deprecating moments, I do have the "ah-ha" experience: Many men DO find me attractive. In social settings, I'm often the receiver of more than a few passes. I used to travel a lot more, lots of tradeshows, and I'm constantly being hit on by guys. Not all of them can be married losers hoping to cheat on their wife, right? On the overall scale of attractiveness, I'm probably not really a 2 1/2, but my husband has taught me that you automatically discount anyone in the lower 50-70%, and compare yourself to the rest. He does this to himself as well. Kinda skews your opinion of yourself, I guess.

Toolman-

It sure sounds like IAO isn't giving this a snowballs chance in a very hot place of being saved. HOWEVER, like someone mentioned above, there have been marriages in worse shape that have been salvaged, recovered, polished, and are looking good. SO, after reading this thread tonight, I want to tell you one thing that I have not heard you say or even come close to referring to. You HAVE to say (and of course, believe it too), "IAO, the A was 100% my fault. There is nobody else at fault as to this A happening. It is not your fault for gaining weight. It is not the OW's fault for chasing me. It is ALL my fault." Once you believe that, you can move forward. If you continue to point the finger in other's directions as to whose fault it is, things will never ever get better. You are hearing this from a FWS. My W and I are still working things out and I know now that nothing would have been accomplished (we still have a long way to go) until I realized that. I admit that the A might not have happened, that I might not have been as vulnerable,etc.. if more of my EN's had been met and my W agrees. BUT, when it comes down to it, the actual A was 100% my fault. Now, I am re-examining how many times I play basketball a week, how long I stay at work, what I do around the house to help...these are all things that show my W I am interested or not interested in repairing the M. If you are still going to your brother's house and not planning dates with her, what is she supposed to feel? Nothing has changed except maybe you aren't seeing the OW anymore. That's not the major thing now. The major thing is for you to work on finances, work on meeting her EN's, working on filling her Love Bank, working on changing things that you do and don't do. I am not saying this to pick at you. Believe me, I have had plenty of people tell me the same things. When I first heard them, I thought if I am going to change, then she has to change. Unh-uh. Not the way it works. The way it works and the only way it works is for you to first start showing her, your W, that you are serious. From what you have typed, you are not as serious as you need to be. What you are saying is exactly what I was saying. Too much finger pointing and hand waving...not enough real truth. If you don't feel you can or will admit to the 100% responsibility and don't feel you can or will change the way you act, the way you spend your time, and the way you treat your W no matter how much LB'ing she does at the beginning, then it is not going to work. When you start doing some serious changing, there is a much greater chance that she will also - if she decides to give you another shot.

Just some thoughts from a FWS who was almost exactly in your shoes at one time. Take it or leave it.

I'm thinking and praying for you and your W and your D.

SNT