Toolman = never once (that I see) admitts or discusses A.
11/16/05 05:07 PM "Did I say that? I DO think it was wrong. I agree it was not appropriate... I knew better then and I know even better now. I knew I was vulnerable. I took steps to prevent it..."
Is there more that needs to be discussed? Let me know if there is. Just trying to avoid salt-in-the-wound irrelevant details. I have plainly admitted to IMA that I am much more of an [censored] today than when we married.

Since IMA and I communicate on this thread, I think we'd like to stay on the same one, if thats ok with you IMA?

Thanks for helping me see how extremely sad and painful this is for IMA, and thanks for helping pull the knife out of her heart. I hope its not too late. I need to be more sensitive to her feelings. IMA's tough shell is hard to see thru. She needs to be more fair and understanding. I can't be nice when I'm under attack.

The meds are not to "tolerate each other". I've been taking prozac on/off since clinical trials back in 1986 - I've had seasonal affective disorder since I was a kid. IMA suffered severe and lengthy post-partum depression with both pregnancies. IMA deals with unresolved issues - bipolar disorder, alcoholism, deaths in her family. Several years ago we went through a very stressful period with job changes, moving across the state, our first marriage breakdown, and sleep deprivation as two new clueless parents all at the same time. We both were treated for PTSD which lingers to this day as clinical depression and generalized anxiety disorder.

Yes I miss the wife I married and the friendship we once had. About two years ago I actually went through a grieving period as if she had died. I'd love to have our marriage back, my best friend back. Its been so long I can hardly remember. The ulterior motives are not there; if divorce would release her pain and our family would be better off then Halleluiah. You can get a maid/nanny anytime. There is only one IMA.

Why is there no sex?
11/16/05 12:23 PM "Its my understaning that ima beleives sexual fulfullment and admiration must come unconditionally. For me, they are intertwined with physical attractiveness and emotional stability." Its not an age or wrinkels thing. Its not the weight alone, its also the attitudes and habits that cause and result from it. "Am I shallow, do I have a problem?" I had to ask my shrink. Psych ref: "much of personality is an artifact of your physiological health with high physical fitness correlating to high emotional stability and optimal brain symmetry. Physical attractiveness is also likely just a function of fitness." IMA is a "10" in our wedding photos.

SNT: I didn't see it but yes I'm doing a lot of finger pointing. Maybe its a phase I have to go through. Also defending myself from all the trashing. Only recently I've been re-examining my own behavior and trying to change, working on changing myself. Hard to shake habits from years of not caring about each others needs, especially when we are at each others throats.

Toolman,

Is it possible that the root cause of all her problems here is not post-partum depression, bipolar personality disorder, overeating, alcoholism, deaths in the family, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorders, etc. etc. etc.

but her inability to cope with you willingness to make decisions that hurt her even if they seem to benefit you?

Please consider that you are underestimating just how much your affair hurt her and that the affair is more or less the tip of the iceburg as to how badly you have treated her.
You sound so much like my husband. He never really understood that what he does affects how I feel.

JoyfullyCaring

First of all, I've NEVER been diagnosed as bi-polar in my life. Toolman and I see the same shrink, and he thinks I have the garden-variety depression. This same shrink knows how I use alcohol to self-medicate, and I've told shrink that I'm probably an alcoholic. After many sessions, he still does not categorize me as an alcoholic, and has had few concerns of prescribing meds that can impact liver function. The image that Toolman presents of me, makes me think that I must look like jabba-the-hut with stars around my head, and a bottle of whiskey in both hands.

In fact, I can and do get on the treadmill several times a week, and run/walk for 90 minutes, on a steep incline. I can bench press more than any woman I know, and leg press over 300 lbs. (My stamina and leg strength surpass Toolman's on any day.) I am a member of two health clubs, including Curves for women. Today is my 291st workout at curves in the past 3 years. I'm sorry, but most folks would define me as "active" or "very active."

Toolman doesn't acknowledge any of the headway I've made in many areas. I've completely given up my 2-3 liters of Diet Pepsi a day (Sorry Mel), and don't drink more than 5 glasses of wine a week. I work out at least 4, sometimes 5 days a week. I get my finger and toe nails professionally done, and do a very time-consuming 4 color hair process to make my naturally dark brown hair look younger and fuller, and cover those greys!

While I spend virtually no money on clothing or shoes (not very feminine I know) since I shop at Walmart for the most part, clothing has never been a big factor for Toolman. Actually, I think he's always liked that "slutty" look, but I've always resisted him on that.

With all that said, Yes, I did give up on my looks after the babies. Yes, I was sleep deprived and had serious post-partum depression. Yes, we had virtually no support with the first child, and we were clueless. Yes, I breastfed both children for over 18 months each. Yes, I spent the first two years of each of their lives with them, never taking more than an hour or two at a time to myself. I did not leave either of them (not even with Toolman) for an overnight trip until they were over two years old. Yes, I gave up a high-paying, high-profile career as soon as I was 3 months pregnant over ten years ago. This has all taken a toll. Especially painful is the knowledge that the person Toolman fell in love with was a pretty selfish, shallow person, too. Fortunately, I have grown, and see more in people than their exterior. Someday Toolman will be bald and impotent. My feelings for him would not have changed, because that was not what was important. Toolman will always see me as a drunk, lazy, crazy, fat slob, even if no one else does. That, I do not deserve, no matter how important marriage is to the children. I do not deserve an emotional death-sentence because I (temporarily?) ruined my body, career, and mental health by having two beautiful children.

"Please consider that you are underestimating just how much your affair hurt her."

JoyfullyCaring,
I was underestimating. I think I see how bad, but its likely that I am still underestimating and it's just the tip of the iceberg. Thanks for pointing out I will keep trying to open my eyes.

Why are the husband's feelings expected to take back seat to the wife's? Implicit is that no matter how badly the wife treats the husband, he is The Man and must suck it up. Any effect on him is his own fault. The idea of a wife abusing a husband is scoffed at. There are no battered husband shelters. Only the wife's feelings are legitimate.

You mean s#!t happens versus deliberate decisions like deciding to try to save our marriage, like deciding to read this and other webs to try to understand her side, like deciding to go to MC, like deciding to keep myself healthy & sane so I can earn money and be a good father?

Toolman-

Your W says in a post a few back that you will always see her as a "drunk, lazy, crazy, fat slob, even if no one else does." Is that true? Why would she say something like that? Honestly look at your actions and ask yourself is there a reason that she would say something like that. Remember, if she is making headway in her health/physical appearance (assuming she is), and you don't say anything, how will she interpret that? There is a book called "Love Languages" by Dr. Smalley. In that, he defines five different love languages that people "listen" for to see if someone truly loves them. My guess would be one of your W's primary ones is "Words of Affirmation". That is, she needs to hear encouragement, compliments, etc.. as a method of receiving love. The other four by the way are quality time, gifts, physical touch, and acts of service. You know her and MIGHT be able to identify hers but it sounds like you are missing the mark. If hers is "words of affirmation" and you are trying to show her your love by gifts or acts of service, your love for her may be going in one ear and out the other. I am not saying that is hers but I am just using it as an example. There is a quiz in the back of the book for husbands and wives that can let you (and your S) know what yours are. My W and I just took the quizzes and hers came out to be "Words of Affirmation". I can't tell you the amount of gifts and acts of service I did over and over and thought I was showing her how much I loved her. She told me that in our 13 years she never felt loved by me. I was knocked over! Just some things to think about and hopefully use! Also, when the A was exposed, I took a LOT of yelling, name-calling, etc... All you can do is just take it. I am not sure how long this has been happening to you. I agree that you can only take so much but you really need to bear most of it without "retaliation". Anyway, that is probably a lot to digest so I'll just end it here. I'll write more later. Don't read what I wrote though as criticism of you or what you are doing. I know a lot of how you feel because I was in your shoes. I am a business owner. I had an A. All of it. One more piece of advice...pray hard.

IAO - are you really red-faced yelling at TM? What are the LB'ers he is actively doing now? Are you still just re-living your past with the TM of old? Why do you think he is not sincere in wanting his best friend (you!)? As I mentioned above, I am a lot like TM in the background department. I put a lot of things above my W (we talked about that last night) during our M. I thought I was showing her how much she meant to me but I was doing it in the wrong way. Do you think that if TM knew (and he obviously didn't...I didn't either) how to show you he loved you and desired you that it would be worth another shot? I don't know the whole past with you two but it sure sounds like you are saying a lot of what my W is saying. How do I know that this is not temporary and I will start disregarding her EN's in the future just like I did for 13 years? All I can say, is that I was in a fog and now I am out and have no desire to go back in. I believe that TM is out or really trying to get out of the fog and work on being a better person. I may be 100% wrong. At first, I thought he was saying a lot of BS but it sure sounds like he is trying now. If he is trying to get out of the fog and is met with yelling and name-calling, it is hard to get out. Can you let him out and see what he has become? I know that is something that will be hard to do. When I compare who I was to who I am now (or at least am working to be), they are two different people! My W would never want to stay with the old me. NEVER! But, the new me is like a different person. She doesn't even want to recognize our "old" anniversary because it was married to another person.

This has turned out to be a lot longer than I thought. Sorry. Just think about it IAO. You are saying things that you feel he is thinking or feeling and they may not be necessarily true. He might just not be speaking your language. And TM, don't resort to yelling or retalitaion if IAO pushes you in whatever way she does. Let her talk or yell. And listen to what she is saying. Take a breath. Then respond in a normal tone of voice. Don't react.

You guys can do it. I did and I didn't think we would make it either. My W and I are happier now and have the potential to be happier than we ever have been in all of the last 13 years.

Pray for each other several times a day. I will be praying for both of you and your children.

SNT

Oops..."Love Languages" is by Dr. Gary Chapman. Dr. Smalley wrote a book I am reading called "DNA of Relationships" which is also very good.

SNT

You know... and this is obviously based on limited info, but you seem to always have a way of justifying your behavior or blaming outside factors, like mental problems, IAO's problems, being chased by the OW, etc. IMO, you'll never get anywhere until you take a good, long look in the mirror and see what you've done that is wrong and do your best to change the things you should about yourself w/out blaming anyone else or some other factor.

IAO sounds like a big girl. I think she can decide for herself if she needs details about the affair and when she feels that it has been discussed enough to help her understand what happened. Withholding info from her doesn't seem to be doing you much good. Why don't you follow her lead and let her decide how much detail she can handle? If you come clean about everything, she's more likely to start building trust in you again.


Ok... I know that I've noted that others seemed to be ganging up on you and I'm trying not to do that--only to tell you how it looks from the outside, in case it might helpful for you and your wife. You speak of your affair and the effects on your wife in passive voice. You always add in IAO's faults and use that to justify your own behavior and the affair itself. I think what none of us have seen (so makes me wonder if IAO has ever seen it) is a real mea culpa from you. How about "I am sorry for having an affair and hurting you so badly. I am so sorry for what I did. I'll do whatever it takes to prove to you that I love you and I'll do whatever it takes to save our relationship." Something like this, from the heart, without a lot of excuses and justifications would go a long way, I'm sure.


You know, I mean this with no disrespect, but I think you've been spending too much time at the shrink's. Sure, all these life events cause tremendous stress. But, that's part of life. People get depressed. People have great times and people have low times. People get exhausted and stressed bringing home babies. Women have huge hormone shifts and bone-numbing exhaustion from sleep deprivation when having babies. From IAO's account, it sure doesn't sound to me like she has bi-poloar disorder. She sounds like a woman who is seriously pissed off and fed up. She sounds like a woman who feels like her husband finds her repulsive and can't stand her. I think anyone would be angry and depressed living in a situation like that. Try to get behind her eyes and she how she feels.


She sure doesn't seem to feeling any of that from you, from what she's saying here. And your best friend has changed. She's not the same person you married. You've both made mistakes and hurt each other. You have to resolve that somehow and you each have to take responsibility for how you've wronged each other before you move forward.


Ok... I think you've revealed plenty here. When I read IAO's account, I was hoping that her situation was more like my own. I was hoping that she was being too hard on herself and assuming that you weren't attracted to her because of being too hypercritical and then rejecting you because of her own insecurities about herself. I was hoping that you really had wanted sex all these years and that you could've had a healthy sex life if she hadn't assumed you were repulsed by her. Many men are not as hung up on women carrying a few extra pounds as the women themselves are. But... I'm wondering from your comments if she isn't really right-- that you find her repulsive and have no sexual attraction for her and that YOU are the one who has cut off SF in the marriage. If that's true, then you need to get past this pyschobabble that you are using to justify this and try to figure out why you can't get past her weight gain from having YOUR children and still love the woman you married and want sex with her. I can't even imagine how unloved, unwanted and hideous this must have made her feel over the years. I cringe when I read IAO refer to herself in terms of how she thinks you see her. It's obvious how devastated and hurt she feels.

From reading both of your posts, it doesn't sound like IAO has this unreasonable request for admiration. I mean, come on, having your husband value your existence, want to touch you and have physical contact with you is not a need for admiration, it's a need to be valued as a spouse. And it sounds like her putting her career on hold to nurture and breastfeed your children, should be something else that should be highly valued by you, that increases your love and care for her. The time period when children are young is a short time during marriages. Couples have to adjust to making sure that the little people are well taken care of. It pays off later to put a lot into the children when they're small, because you end up with well-balanced children who are enjoyable to be around. Your kids are old enough that you can both start focusing on your relationship again. But, please don't make IAO feel that her physical appearance takes precedence over everything else and that you can't love her as she is now. If she felt loved and attractive now, I'm sure it'd be easier for her to take of the pounds. It sounds like in her isolation and loneliness, she turned to food and booze to try to cope.

I'm not justifying IAO's behavior if she has been cruel and mean to you, but I am saying that it is understandable that she would be angry and resentful towards you if she feels like you find her repulsive and hideous and you don't show any kind of appreciation or understanding for her role as a mother to your kids. I know from experience that once a couple gets into situation of feeling like the other one has disdain for them, it just takes on a life of it's own and it spirals out of control quickly. The good news is if one can disengage and refuse to react negatively and LB, that with time, the other one can start to come around. In my M, I had to outwardly let go of tons and tons of resentment and anger and try to change the way I was reacting. If H was nasty and disrespectful, I did everything I could not to respond in kind. I wear my emotions on my face and I had to try not to show irritation or anger and it was hard. But, it worked. Each of us are the types who have to be right and have the last word and I had to stop and just refuse to play along. It takes a ton of self control and a lot of time, but you see a change in the other person when you don't take part in the damaging behaviors. I really thought we'd gone past he point of no return, but after a few months of me really trying, he started changing in how he treated me. The same dynamics occur when treat each other well as when you treat each other badly. The more each person is kind and loving and attentive, the more the other person responds the same way. And I can say that now, my H and I are truly as in love with each other and as good of friends as ever. It can happen, but you have to swallow your pride and not care who is to blame or if you're wronged. You have to refuse to play a part in what is destroying the M.

Try to really think about how she must feel and how much she must hurt and why she might've acted out about it over the years. And I'm sure that your rejecting her and then screwing a young, thin woman was like ripping her guts out. It really sucks to take an objective look at yourself and admit all the hurtful things you've done to another person, but it can take the shock of seeing how ugly you can be, w/out the excuses or justifications... just the naked truth staring you in the face, to get you to really get serious about making the needed changes.


A lofty goal, but I don't think you can do it at a superficial level here, but you'll have to bare all and it'll get really painful and ugly. But, it really depends on how much you want to save your M and how much you want to become a person you can be proud of being. If IAO can do the same, you two have a chance of not only salvaging your marriage, but actually liking each other and being happy again. But, you have a long road ahead of you and one of you has to be the one to make the first effort.

TM & IAO...

Haven't heard anything for several days. What is going on?

Just thinking about you guys...

SNT

IAO,
you wrote


"I do not deserve an emotional death-sentence because I (temporarily?) ruined my body, career, and mental health by having two beautiful children."

I am a BS and a mother. Baby, I feel your pain. If you had a different wonderful career and a body made for the cover of Vogue, I think you would still be feeling that you may have been given an emotional death-sentence.

Regarding your body, you are responsible and you alone for the shape it's in. It's the only one you've got, so why not begin to treat it well? You deserve it, honey! It will continue to age and will never be perfect. Welcome to the club. If I could say all this in person, I'd hug the bod you've got and tell you what all your best features are. I'm sure you've got lots!

Regarding your career, when you had kids (yes, you made some sacrifices for them, as you should) you didn't ruin your career. You changed careers. If your kids are older and you want to "get back out there" in the workplace...Go For It! Focus on your future.

Regarding your mental health, I just want to offer something wonderful to you. This is not a substitute for any medication or therapy for dianosed mental illnesses. I just know from personal experience that my relationship with Christ has kept me from losing my mind during my marriage crises. My H has had more than one A. I have spent years of my life wondering what was wrong with me in more ways than one. Making time to pray and read my Bible and spend time with friends who do the same has been key in my mental and emotional survival. I know how it hurts to feel ugly, neglected, emotionally abused...being betrayed by the most important person to you on Earth is beyond devastating. How great to know that God will never let me down, that He desires my beauty, that he loves me and likes me, and that He will never leave me! If you don't know God you might give Him a try.

Thank you to all who have replied and offered wisdom. I just got back from a mini-vacation in Las Vegas with some friends. It was good to get away. Toolman took care of the children and has been an attentive parent. He has also given me space. I guess you could call it his version of plan A. I do appeciate the effort, but I do not think it will solve anything.

When SNT talks about "words of affirmation," he really doesn't know how bad it is. No words of affirmation have come my way in years (not in ANY way, shape or form). The only words I get are words of condemnation.

When GrownUp talks about his hopes that the lack of SF may have come from me feeling less desireable, less sexy, etc., and that translated into no desire for SF, I hope you see now that the opposite is true. It is the lack of SF, the lack of any "words of affirmation", etc, that has driven me down, little by little. Whereas a typical husband might say, "Oh honey, you don't look fat, come here for some luvin!", Toolman is more likely to swat away any attempts at intimacy by me, with a look like, "You've got to be kidding me--I would never sleep with such a disgusting slob!" Read back up a few posts: on 12/2 I tried to give a more accurate portrayal of my looks, health and overall desireability. Honestly, I'm confident that I feel MUCH MORE beautiful than Toolman thinks I am. People who know us, who know that we haven't been intimate in almost 4 years cannot believe it. They don't say, "well ******, IMA, you're a fat, disgusting, slob! No one would want to have sex with you!"

That said, I will say that I am mildly impressed with toolman's efforts lately, but there is no possible way that I will ever open myself up for that kind of hurt again. Someday, I'll be older, more wrinkled, my skin will have age spots, and things will sag even more. If I'm repulsive now, I know what the story will be later. Toolman is not going to love me as we age gracefully. He's very driven by superficial looks, and always will be. While he's a good father, I wouldn't want my daughter to marry someone like him. If she were to become disfigured or depressed and gain weight, I wouldn't want to know her husband would find a younger, fitter version of her as a replacement. If I wouldn't want that for my daughter, I think I deserve the same treatment.

I don't want to be lulled into believing that things will work out in the long run, if I just give it a chance. I have my flaws, and Toolman has his. In my opinion, Toolman's character flaws are deal-breakers for me. I'll stick it out as long as I can for the sake of the kids, but I'm not in love, Toolman is not in love, and there is no chance that BOTH of us would come around. One of us maybe, but I won't dare open up enough to try with him again. I have too much to loose. I gambled in Vegas for 4 straight days, and came out a little bit ahead of even. How did I do it? A little luck, plus, I NEVER BET ON THE LONGSHOT anymore.

SanNMad--I appreciate our thoughts about trying to turn to God for a boost in the mental health arena. I'm not a fair-weather friend, but I can say that I'm a bit too disillusioned right now to turn to God. I didn't ask to be in this spot, and I live a very moral life. I don't ask for reward, but I don't expect to be punished for no reason, either. I'm no Jesus, so I cannot be nearly as forgiving. Not a good time for me and my God. Maybe when I don't feel so betrayed.

IAO

Glad you had fun in Vegas. I have been there once and am looking forward to going back again. Impressed that you came back ahead of even! I was way up for a while and then the craps table became very unkind. Oh well. ANYWAY...

You are absolutely right. None of us (I don't think anyway) know toolman. None of us can see what you have put up with specifically. There are, however, a bunch of us who have been on both sides of the fence and can relate to what you are thinking and feeling. I wish you would listen with sort of an open mind as to what you are reading. You sound to me like a very strong woman. You have developed a strong opinion of what is happening based on historical facts. There is nothing wrong with that. I am sure that historically, you have been unhappy with toolman and there have been some things that toolman has been unhappy with also. Surely, that is a no-brainer for you.

When my W found out about my A, it was very difficult for her to have any desire to work on our M. We have three wonderful kids and that gave her a slim reason. When we sat down and I heard of all the heartbreak and pain I had caused over our 13 years of marriage, I was taken aback. I couldn't believe it. I thought I was the one who had most of the unhappy times, the one who hadn't had his EN's fulfilled. That was the reason for the A - my unhappiness in the M. Needless to say, I was very shocked when she started going over what had happened in the M from her eyes. As we talked and after she found out about the A, she started some self-examination and realized that she, too, was at fault in a lot of ways. That opened the door for us both to put ourselves in vulnerable situations of exposing ourselves to the other one. Sure, either of us could have really hurt the other one. I could have, she could have. And there were lapses. However, communication overcame these lapses and we kept moving forward. I can honestly say that our M right now is better than it ever has been.

Nobody here would say, "IAO, jump back in with both feet!" There is no longshot betting here. I think toolman has his eyes opened. Make a list of the EN's he wasn't meeting. I know you are thinking that you don't have enough paper! I know that would have been my W's response. But seriously, just list the top ten. Give them to him so he can see in writing, stuck to his bathroom mirror, what it is he needs to know about you and your EN's. There is no exposure there. Then, if he tries to meet an EN on the list, LET HIM! You can protect yourself. If he goes against the EN and takes a withdrawl from your Love Bank, then TELL HIM! He has to know in a kind voice that "Honey, when you told me that my hair was getting gray, it really hurt me." Or whatever.

As far as the Love Languages go, I was just using that as an example. Obviously, "words of affirmation" are important to you or else you wouldn't have jumped on that example. Do you know what his Love Languages are? Do you or did you speak to him using that language? How does toolman speak to you - i.e., which love language?

Finally, during my A it was hard for me to maintain any relationship even a distant one with God. I couldn't imagine why God would have created me this way. Why would he put me in this situation? A lot of whys! You may want to consider giving Him a shot. It doesn't have to be some long, drawn-out prayer. Just a simple one at a red light. Or right before you go to sleep. Nobody has to know except you and Him. He is there. He knows what you have been through. I know you feel betrayed by toolman and maybe even by God also. It's not God that betrayed you. Just think about it, OK?

I am praying for you and toolman.

I wrote this on another thread but it might be applicable here also. My Bible verse in my kid's devotional was (in summary), "Be quick to listen, be slow to speak, and be slow to anger."

SNT

IAO

You said you "don't expect to be punished for no reason either".

I was just wondering...in your opinion, what role do you think God has played in the events of your life, if any?

You said alot when you said "I am a very moral person". You know, I feel the same way about myself and I was treated horribly by my WS. I heard on the radio today that the hardest sacrifice of love a person can make is the gift of forgiveness. It wouldn't be nearly so hard if we felt they "deserved" forgiveness.

Here's the thing, IAO. I believe that if you are not loving God and letting Him love you the way He wants to, you are cutting yourself off from the only true friend you will ever have. I think if you will look for Him just a little, you will find yourself loved and comforted and directed like never before. THis is how I feel God has been to me and continues to be. And yes, I have angrily asked "why" a LOT.