My WW when asked what would she do and how would she feel if I became involved said she would never worry about that as I love her too much, am too honest, and have too much integrity for that. Very strange answer for me.

***As I said in an earlier post, people who have EA's have an easy way out.......they are able to justify their behavior to themselves and to their S's, as 'NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED'.***

So, let's get this straight -- he considers all of this to be NOTHING:

1) Ignoring you to give his attention, affection and companionship to another woman

2) Publicly humiliating you by being seen as HER escort and companion instead of yours

3) Letting you suffer endless hours of loneliness and anxiety while you wonder where in h*ll your husband really is and what he's really doing

Ask him if he really considers those things to be NOTHING.
Mulan

***My WW when asked what would she do and how would she feel if I became involved said she would never worry about that as I love her too much, am too honest, and have too much integrity for that. ***

Politely ask her what it's like to be married to someone like that. Tell her you have to ask because unfortunately you have not had that experience.
Mulan (If you feel evil enough, that is)

Wow! What a storm I started. LOL!
I agree that EA sub-board would be a good idea!
They are a BIG DEAL!!!

Thanks so much for responding. I total know that this is serious and an affair. I've always known it was whether he wants to believe it or not. I've told him I'm not stupid.

This time I haven't been able to pinpoint who it is or if there is anyone in particular. As with every story here it's complicated. We are in the midst of a finacially hard time (just like the other times).
It also coinsides with a visit from a friend we haven't seen in years, AA. AA stayed with the best friend of the first EA player, SH, while he was here.
And someone told my husband about a incident of jealousy on my part that happened in Sept.
Everything happens at once for us. :-(

I gave a party for my H in Sept. His best friend, wife & kids came. She got her shirt dirty. I was at dining table with Mom & my best friend. We look up to see my H & bf's wife going into our bedroom. A few minutes later he comes out, 2-3 mins she comes out. The 3 of us just looked at each other. Of couse it was discussed.
I was pissed & thought it grossly inappropriate. I could have gotten the shirt if either had asked me too. For once I just let it go. I know she is just looking for attention and have tried to work on my own insecurities. I didn't say anything to him. I worked it out on my own & by talking to my mom & friend.
Well someone told him. (I'm sure it was my bf's husband. He noticed the change in shirt & said something. I later found out H & him discussed it right before our storm-talk.)

In the middle of trying to get out of him what was bothering him & what to do about our money
he brings this incident up! I almost lost control.
I couldn't believe the sheer anger on his face. It made me sick. I stayed calm & explained that I was upset but let it go. I asked him "Would you have even known if someone hadn't told you? Did I in anyway take it out on you? I didn't think it was something to get in a fight about."
Of course he would have just gotten mad at me for being "jealous or controlling, etc".
I was proud of myself for being able to handle it & not blow it out of proportion; then he finds out! UGH!!

I confronted H and then bf's wife a fews years ago when this all started between them. Long story.
In this new storm-talk, I told him that I had a very hard time getting past it back then, I'd been working very hard not to let every little thing bother me but they made it very hard. After I talked to both of them, NEITHER of them respected how I felt enough to stop! They were actually pissed that they couldn't continue "talking" like they had been. I have proof of that!
I endured a lot of agony watching the 2 of them. It was a big thing to move past & especially since we have been friends with the whole family for 20yrs!!!
Not seeing them isn't an option.
He didn't say a word! Just looked at me and I asked if he believe what I said & understood. He said "I have no reason not to." It was so cold & angry.

He is awful to get things out of (what man isn't!!).
I feel that the "jealousy" issue is a place to lay blame on me. It's the only thing he can find to be mad at me about.
(enough to cause a breakup)

I'm not sure if something is going on or if it's just all these old ghosts popping in for a visit.
He's just so shut down & distant with me.
There is only casual talking. He's avoiding any kind of physical/emotional closeness with me. It's obvious.
He's always given physical affection in holding hands, caring touches, kisses etc. There is none of that now.
I can barely get a peck good bye. Which I insisted on after
contiued lack of.
I don't know where to start or how to talk to him to get him to open up or even try.
What is a good first step or plan?
There are so many dianamics I don't know
which is more important. I feel like an
elephant on a tightrope & I know he's just
as bogged down with all of this.

thanks for trying to help guys!

Tia

Your husband is furious because he's been cold busted as being a liar and a cheat.

He's trying to shift the blame onto you by saying you are "jealous" and "insecure" and "controlling" - you know, the same words that high school boys use to get their girlfriends off their backs and out of the way.

Don't fall for any of it.

Did you see my post above about "NOTHING?"
Mulan

I just came in from spending $116 with a therapist trying to cover this same subject...no sex = no affair.

He is playing the blame game big time as well. While the entire 4 months of sex and longing is in black and white email print outs his response is simply...they are just words. I didn't mean them. Yea right. I have some words I'd like to say, and I would mean each and every one. However, I am not LBing for today. I wonder how they can be so dillusional. Maybe a few more people need to read these emails in terms of exposure. He can call me crazy, jealous, etc but maybe a few other people may need to see it and say I am not crazy. I hate to air our dirty laundry but it may be what has to be done so he can see the light. Thanks for letting me vent. This EA stuff is very difficult stuff.

EA's are SO SO SO insidious! Nothing tangible for the BS to prove. Nothing tangible for the WS to admit to even to themselves. If they have "feelings" for OP they are not hard to deny to their S or even to themselves for that matter. If they are spending time together it is because "they are on the same bowling team" and who doesn't go into the lounge afterwards? (my sitch) If they work together they have a "project" to work on. etc., etc. If they are deceptive about phone calls or meetings it is because "they don't want to cause any waves on the homefront when there is nothing really going on anyway." (my sitch when I was just starting to become uneasy with their "friendship"......so he started to call OW on his cell instead of the home line.) Everything is justifiable to the WS, or at least to a small degree they feel they are able to justify their actions, as to them THEY ARE NOT HAVING AN AFFAIR AS AFFAIRS ARE PHYSICALLY SEXUAL. YES, MY H KNEW HE WAS EXCLUDING ME, YES, HE KNEW HE WAS HURTING ME, YES, HE KNEW HE WAS INCONSIDERATE OF MY FEELINGS, BUT D---IT HE WAS NOT HAVING AN AFFAIR!!!!!!!!!................. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

TOUGH STUFF INDEAD SICKOFTHIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blessings,
Tarehurts

Add on to my last post:

AND NO (at the beginning in my sitch)HE WASN'T WILLING TO A NC AS THEY WERE "JUST FRIENDS", "BOWLING BUDDIES", "SHE WAS A M WOMAN FOR G--'S SAKE", "WE KNOW SHE AND HER H WELL!" HE WOULD "BE FRIENDS WITH WHOMEVER HE WANTED TO, D---IT AS HE WAS NOT HAVING AN AFFAIR!!!!!

Blessings,
Tare

For all of us with EA's driving us to insanity.
I really liked a description of AFFAIRS I read yesterday.
It was lengthy but in short it said

AFFAIRS are like peeling an orange. Once the protective layers (ones that protect a marriage) are peeled away they can never be put back. Once another has seen behind the layers and shared intimacy you can not unsee it. You can not go back to being "friends".

I firmly believe that. It doesn't matter whether it's sexual or not. If you share that side of yourself with someone there's no going back. They share the intimacy that should only be for your spouse.

Why aren't people able to understand that?!!!
I've never allowed myself to open up with another
man that way. That's why I have girl friends!
I tried to make my husband and this bf's wife
see that it's a fine line to walk being "friends"
like that and it's very easy to cross the line.
No body cares what I think. I'm just making
too much fuss. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-P

All I know is that this time I will not sit
back & take it. If the line is crossed again
the whole world is going to know how I feel.
I don't care anymore. They don't care that I'm
being hurt by it. I will also expose the proof
that I have if need be. Come what may, I'm tired
of being s&%t on!!! I was smart enough to keep
all of the evidence.

My thoughts are with everyone who feels
as betrayed & awful as I do.

Tia-

If you have solid proof - go for it!!! EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE!!!!!!!!! AND THEN EXPOSE SOME MORE!!!!!!!!

Problem for some of us is that we don't have any real solid proof in EA's. That has been the case for me. Lots of huge red flags, even some comments from people about seeing my H and OW together alot after bowling in the lounge, but how do you have any absolutes in any of that kind of thing?
I exposed anyway after all of this. I never accused him of having a PA (which I am 90% sure that he didn't) but I exposed an inappropriate "friendship". Somehow believe it or not it didn't backfire on me, but I really think helped him come to grips with the sitch. And took the "secretiveness" out of their R........HUGE HELP!!....Got back to the OW as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Blessings, Tarehurts

Glad you exposed. The lying, the secrets, the illicit aspect of an EA are what wrong. An ea steals from the m. Any r that detracts from the m is wrong. all r's must be marriage friendly or they are harmful.

My H said that he thinks it makes me mad because he's not jealous! That's not what makes me mad. His crossing the line is what makes mad(hurt!!).
I don't give him a reason to be jealous! I have NEVER allowed myself to get close to the line; forget crossing it! Even years ago when I was neglected & easily could have with one phone call, I didn't. I love and respect him and we have been friends our whole life. I could never look him in the eye again if I betrayed him that way.

He is still not talking about any of our issues.
There is only small talk. No affection at all.
I thought there might be a break through coming on friday night but I was wrong. Things were the same.
I don't know how much longer I can put up with it.
This is not the way I want to live. The anger is building up so quickly now that I know an explosion is coming.
He's not mean just avoiding.
I don't know how to get him to open up. I wish he
would before I loose it. I have tried so hard not to
say things that there's no coming back from.
Please keep us in your prayers!
That's all I seem to have right now.

AND Shay, it is the threat and the danger that if the EA were to continue, chances are it WOULD become a PA. My H skirted around this issue months ago....."It hadn't gotten that far.".........and that means? It would have?...Could have?.......Of course on pursuing that comment at a later date, (I have always given him too much time to think) He said he didn't mean it that way........"It would have NEVER become P."

And you are sooo correct Shay, it is the lies, secretiveness, illiciteness that is so harmful to the M....and one more thing that I might add.......the common perception of people in general that the only A that is real is a PA..........(example)... H told me a mutual friend (female) that is also a good friend of OW, told my H how ridiculous I was to think anything was going on with them as they were in the lounge at the bowling alley with all kinds of people around.......it was in the middle of winter......friend's quote..."What did she think you were doing, throwing her up on the bar and X#$$@ing her?....or going out to the parking lot in 20 degree weather and X#$%$ing her in the car?"...."She's being ridiculous"......keep in mind that this was OW's good friend, which I think might have a bearing on her comments......BUT..SHE WAS ABLE TO USE THE COMMON THEORY THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE KIND OF AFFAIR..AND THAT IS PHYSICAL.

TIA-
Are you in any kind of counseling IC or MC? You need a professional (a good one) to help you sort all this out and to help you have a starting point. Had you worked anything out after the initial D Day? Is this a recent distance between the two of you?......Are you (and this is a BIG MAYBE) having any kind of intuition or gut feelings that some "friendship" is rekindling between he and OW? I think the counseling road is important for you...especially at this point. The problem w EA's is that they are sooooo ILLUSIVE.....SO VAGUE.....NOTHING TO PIN ANYTHING ON. And I really think are sometimes more destructive than PA's for this very reason.

My prayers are with you and your H.

Blessings,
Tarehurts

....."It hadn't gotten that far.".........

That one phrase speaks volumes about the r. and many pa did start as an ea.

My fws had ed at the time of the ea. I think that that is the only reason his didn't go that far. I know the thought was there when he lied about how many pills came in the sample of the levetra.

You need to plan a your butt off. Have you showed him your copy of "Just Not Friends?" I had gone to Glass' website and printed off a copy of a checklist that is used to determine if a friendship has become an ea.

Also, have you asked him if he is sexually attacted to this woman? When I thought another of my husband's friendship was going too far, he stated, "but Shay, I'm not sexually attract to her at all." So even my h realizes that the key is the attraction or sexual chemistry, not the act itself.

Just a few afterthoughts-

Tia-

Have you read any of the articles on this site? I see that you are fairly new to MB. Read, Read, Read as much as you can. I highly recommend the Harleys for any kind of M difficulty and they are very knowledgeable about infidelity both E and P or both. You will gain alot of insight. Their goal is to save M's at all costs, and they truely believe that most M's that have suffered with this can indeed be saved if you seek help. They have M courses and also counseling if you are in the area, and if not they have phone counseling as well. Read about it at the beginning of the site.

Another thought---

The jealousy attack is a common one as (1) "A's are only P in nature," (yeah right!) (2) Some people have a very hard time w/ empathy.....it is hard for the WS to put themselves in the place of the BS. (3)I believe that at the beginning of an EA the WS does not even realize themselves what is going on as there is nothing P with their outside R.......they have the permission of the world to discount their BS's reaction as just "jealousy".

Blessings,
Tarehurts

No we're not in counseling. I mentioned it & later he said his sister mentioned it also. There has been no real commitment for anything! That's my point!
He simply doesn't talk about anything important.
He avoids me like the plague with only pleasantries
here & there.
I really believe the finiancial strains (#1 reason I'm not at counseling myself already and why I'm on here for help) brought up all of this old stuff.
I brought up the EA's because they are a reoccuring problem for us. With all that's going on, I'm sure if he's not already starting it he will.
He's cornered and just threw out what ever he could to push me away. I can analyze him to death but I don't know what to do to help this. He hasn't picked up the ball on anything that I've suggested or done to help.

He's the kind of person that the more you push or displays of anger/hurt only shut him down more. That's why I do my best to give him time. I'm just at my whits end this time.
I don't know how long I can do this. It's killing me.

I'd rather know the worst than to be left hanging in the wind. It's horrible and painful.

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers.
Keep them coming.

I posted my story on just found out a while ago, it was also an ea and I agree that it is hard to deal with. My H broke up contact as soon as his secret came out. I am still struggeling almost every day. I don't know if it is harder for me personaly since she was a family friend or why, but I don't seem to be able to get her of my mind at all. I wish I could tell her exactly what I think of her but really don't want to ever see or speak to her again. The WS really seems to have an easy time saying we are just friends. I know one thing though, I wont ever deal with, just friends, of the opposite sex for my H ever again. She had a crush on him in Highschool and he wasn't looking for anything from her. Yeah, well something happened though so now I sit here and try to get their image out of my mind. Kind of hard when she spend so much time here. I hope it gets better at some point for all of us.