an update to my original post "advice on whether my marriage can be salvaged". As my situation is not completely clear as to if my W is having an affair I don't know how to proceed with plan B. Based on my own fact finding, I can only assume that she is in an EA "as a friend" but in denial of it.

After many emails detailing my improvement and no response from her and a surprising 2AM encounter/dinner that lead to her still telling me to "Move-on". Finally, last night I decided to move-on to plan B by leaving her a Voicemail with: "Ever since you’ve moved to SF, your words to me are very clear; to move-on with my life. No matter how much I want to make this marriage work, I have to accept what you’re telling me and move-on just as you have. A large part of that moving-on includes your possessions moving-on with you so that I can have some closure. So I’ll pack them up and put them down into the garage. Please contact me to arrange a convenient time to pick them up this weekend. At that point, I would also like to ask that you return the keys, garage door opener, and the parking pass to the apartment."

30min later I get a call with enraged tone about throwing her possessions out and being unreasonable about the time frame.

I eventually calmed her down to be able to talk to her about all the things I have learned but have gotten no response back and seeing her few nights ago reassured me that she was indeed happy and in a "better place" now, that I must not resist and let her be happy by following her wishes for me to "move-on". Therefore I must have some closure.

She expressed that she hasn't finalized the divorce because she wanted to give me time to be ready. I thanked her for that and said if she still feel the same way then I'm ready.
Long pause and then I press her for an answer, she showed discontent for the pressure I'm giving her. Then she said she can't talk to me anymore on the phone because it causes so much confusion and makes her lose her bearings, but we can email. I left it at that and we went to bed.

As I thought about it, by leaving it as such, I haven't moved into Plan B. So in the morning, I woke up a, bit confused, and began writing a Plan B letter when she called and was very angry about my "tone of voice" last night; causing her anxiety again, accusing me of throwing out her possessions again. I tried to explain that this is my way of "moving-on" just as moving to SF was her way of moving on. She hung-up on me and when I tried to call her back, she screamed into the phone something about "throwing out her things".

stu, I think if you want to save your marriage, you should hire a P.I. and find out what is really going on here. I strongly suspect she is having an affair and there isn't much you can do to save your marriage until you bust up the affair, if that is the problem. If you go into Plan B without having done Plan A, you just increase the odds of divorce. And I think there are lots of things you can do to prevent that. But first, you must find out what the real issue is. And I don't believe the full story is known yet.

I am so confused, I am a believer of the concepts of this website. At the same time, when I try to talk about these concepts as they apply to my situation with my pastoral marriage counselor, he is telling me that I don't need to find out that it should be enough for me that she is not sharing her life with me and to go ahead and move on...
I don't want to make the wrong move.

stu, you are certainly not obligated to do anything but move on, but don't you want to see if you can perhaps save your marriage first? I can see following your counselor's advice if you have tried various things to save your marriage, but you haven't. You still have some clear opportunities here. I am not trying to give you false hope, but we have seen much worse situations than yours come back from the dead.

At least if you TRY a few things, you might have a chance, but if you just throw in the towel and give up like your C advises, you will have no chance at all.

If you are really done with the marriage and don't want to try, I can understand that. Are you done with the marriage?

No, in fact I'm trying to revive the marriage from the dead. I thought the counselor was trying to help me do the same as well.
Even if I find out and know for sure that she is having an affair how do I confront her? Tell her I hired a PI to spy on her?

Stu, please understand this, if she is in an affair, all of your efforts to revive the marriage are absolutely futile until and unless you bust up the affair. This is WHY you must know if she is having an affair. It makes all the difference in the world in how you approach the problem.

Right now what you are doing is like a blindfolded doctor trying to stop the bleeding in a dying patient. You are fumbling around in the dark while the patient slowly dies. Until you take the blindfold off, you can't stop the bleeding and save the patient.

In order for you to save your marriage, you must first find out what the real issue is. You can't very well address a problem when you don't know truly what it is. It sounds like she is in an affair. If that is the case, then you would confront her with your evidence and then expose her affair to key family members. We will guide you through this.

stu,
Your story (as it sounds right now) seems close to mine....H moved out, sais he is happier, no sign of an A. I too thought of hiring a PI, but have not done so....my gut tells me not to....

Just as your wife, H has stuff at my house (has not picked up anything since early sept when he got the winter cloths, books, and guitars....all else is still in the basement. He has the key as well. I admire you for just getting to the point and leaving a message on her machine...I have not done that. I am planning on having "the talk" soon....

It is difficult to know what to do if there is no A. Just wanted to let you know I understand.....been there for 6 months...there has been some suspecious activity with my H but nothing is certain....Now we have not talked about "us" in 3 months...all I know is that it cannot go on....will probably do what you did fairly soon here....your post spoke to me....

Best of luck to you...
Daisy

I haven't read you rprevious posts so I'm shooting from the hip here ;-)

If you do not know if there is an affair, yes, find out.

I'm trying to revive the marriage from the dead.
Good. Don't give up until you are ready.

"Ever since you’ve moved to SF, your words to me are very clear; to move-on with my life. No matter how much I want to make this marriage work, I have to accept what you’re telling me and move-on just as you have. A large part of that moving-on includes your possessions moving-on with you so that I can have some closure. So I’ll pack them up and put them down into the garage. Please contact me to arrange a convenient time to pick them up this weekend. At that point, I would also like to ask that you return the keys, garage door opener, and the parking pass to the apartment."
Hmmm? Some of this is Plan B but the main gist of it is not that you want tpo remain married but that you are "moving on". Her thinking, you do NOT want the marriage.

She expressed that she hasn't finalized the divorce because she wanted to give me time to be ready. I thanked her for that and said if she still feel the same way then I'm ready.
Are you really "ready", at least as far as going along with it?

Plan B makes one thing crystal clear. You WANT to remain married.
The Plan B letter is leaves absolutely NO doubt about what your intentions or thoughts are or what you want.

You need to stop and do not take action based on her yelling at you or you feeling guilty or whatever. Action, not reaction.
Make a decision, figure out exactly what you need to do, then go about doing it.

If you think you are ready for Plan B, write the letter an post it here BEFORE you send it to her.
Get some comments, edit it and post again BEFORE you send it.

Daisy, I am sorry to hear that you're in the same situation. I really feel for you.. Thank you for writing. My sitch involves W having a friend in SF who is male. I don't want to believe that they could have ANY relationship outside of "friends" but I guess I must in denial. She refuses to answer my direct question because of her "principle", and her convictions are quite strong. She believes that since she "moved-on" that her personal life is no longer a concern of mine and that she does not need to dignify my question with a response (!?what's that all about?!)

Melody and Chris, Thank you for your inputs as well, I think I will look into finding a PI. Looks like I'll be looking for a lot of help as I start the PI thing...

Any good recommendations on finding an affordable PI? Any websites or forums that talk about these?

I'm assuming don't try to contact her in the meantime while I gather the evidence?

. My sitch involves W having a friend in SF who is male. I don't want to believe that they could have ANY relationship outside of "friends" but I guess I must in denial.
It is more than a river...

She refuses to answer my direct question because of her "principle", and her convictions are quite strong.
No, she refuses to answer because she IS doing it.
Why would she say this if she was not doing anything???

Any good recommendations on finding an affordable PI?
No, but don't worry about getting too much "evidence". If you know what is going on then you know.
Most ws, you could show them graphic pictures of them and they would deny it with all the conviction in the world while making you out to be insane.

'm assuming don't try to contact her in the meantime while I gather the evidence?
Yes, lay low but don't hide. If she calls or shows up, try to keep it short but don't rush her along.
Be pleasant, no matter what she says or does. Under no circumstances should you be anything but a nice guy or let her see you getting hurt or angry. Save it 'till she is gone.
If she says something and you even feel like getting ticked off, simply say, "Hmmm. I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that for a bit".

Denial is definitely more than a river...
Chris,
I have asked her once when I went to SF initially (1 mo ago) to find her at his house. (this guy was her friend from grad school whom I also knew from back them when we were together). She denied any relationship with him and when I drove away leaving a message on CP saying that he would treat her well. She called back angry of the accusation. So my question is if she hasn't admitted to it and I don't have any direct evidence. How then do I confront her with the situation.
2 nights ago I emailed her a letter at the end of it says: "that night keeps replaying over and over in my head. Besides conveying to you my feelings, there was one question that I posed to you, which you avoided. That is: "have you moved on with someone else in your life?” Reflecting on the bliss evident from your expression when we spoke of your culinary experience in SF (with whom, I can only guess) and on your avoidance of that question, it is painfully obvious to me that you have something to hide. Avoiding that question to me was a sign that you do not have enough respect for me to be honest with me; perhaps you are not proud of the choice that you've made. However, please know that, if indeed you have moved on with someone (whether emotionally or physically) and are happy with your situation, I will accept your choices (even though I may not agree with it). For the many years we've had together, I think I deserve, at the very least, to hear the truth from you. If you’re still the (W's name) that values honesty and respect, the (W's name) I fell in love with, then you’d know that deep down in your heart I deserve nothing less than to hear the truth from you."

Her response in our conversation last night was "again your accusations..."

I take it that was not a good way to confront her...

I guess my approach appears more along the line of "Tough Love" than MB's plan A/B.

Stu,
I really am amazed at your email....I need to take some serious advice from you....

Has your wife directly said she wants a D?
My H basically left, told me to "heal" and lets be friends....no D talk yet. I wonder if that is the same with you.

I understand what you mean about confronting the person when you have little or no evidence (just kind of a gut feeling) and she is deniying it. I asked my H if there was anyone else after I saw a hairclip on the floor of his bedroom! He asked if it was mine?! I said no. But he denied having anyone else, said it would just makes things more complicated....true, but that does not mean that it could not happen....

He acted really strange that day, did not want me to go into the house, told me I should not come over without calling first, then when I was not leaving basically worked hard to get me out of there by asking for a ride and then telling me in the car that I can come over any time, and I can stay over and it can be like when we first met. Then gave me the cold shoulder after he finished work!

Lots of red flags (this was back in Aug) but I felt that I had no real evidence, so I don't know what is going on over there....I do think about the PI, but I worry I will regrett it....but if you don't have any issues about it, I know it can be very helpful to know exactly what you are dealing with!

Best of luck....

Daisy

Daisy, I don't know if I'm a good person to take advice from, after all...I'm in this sitch too. But if I can be of any assistance or support, I'd be glad to...Feel free to use whatever you like in that email :-)

My sitch with the D is that it was filed 14 months ago. Has been stalled since ~12months ago, after we decided to work things out. We have discussed the division of property thing but no summary of judgements (final court order) yet. During these 14 months we had 2-3 fights that she refuse to talk to me for weeks. This time the move to SF is her way of "Moving-on". But she didn't finish the D or move her things, nor did she even tell me she moved, I had to find out from her BIL.

I have had a slight issue with morality of invading her privacy, but got over it when she betrayed her own sacred value of honesty by not answering my question.

I wouldn't consider that to be tough love and it doesn't conflict with marriage builders principles at all. The only problem is that a WS in an affair is not likely to just admit an affair. This is why I am telling you to find out on your own if you want to save your marriage. She has no reason to admit her affair, she can lie as long as she wants.

Stu,

Pat on the back my friend , you handled the situation as you described in the first post on this thread beautifully. You have great instincts. I also agree with your pastoral counselor that yes, indeed, you already have as much proof as needed in regards to the existence of the A.

However, one of the greatest tools that BS have in their workshed is called exposure. For that you need details.

Best of luck my friend.

Cymanca, his pastor told him he didn't need to know the truth, because he should just "move on" and be done with it. Do you agree with that advice?

I believe there is a PA. Ge a P.I. and get the facts. At this point asking her if there an A is an exercise in futility in my opinion. She will deny, deny, and deny.

You need the proof not only to relate to her more productively, but also to convince the people you will expose to, as they most likely will be inclined to believe otherwise, just as you are at the moment.

So your first order of business is to hire a PI, get Surviving An Affair, and read all you can on this site.

Best wishes.

Melody,

My bad. I read it that the pastor meant that there was enough evidence of the existence of another person.

D*mn speed reading course! I need to get my money back.

Thanks for clarifying, I wondered if I had missed something! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I deeply thank all of you for your inputs so far, please keep them coming, as brutally honest as possible. I'll get a PI and get some evidence; Photos I presume. Hopefully they'll be able to get some evidence in this coming up short work week.