Belonging,

There is one thing I AM sure of. Had this decision not come about by me, I was NOT worried that I was going to lose him or that I was forcing thim to marry me. Had this issue not come up, I was perfectly comfortable that he accepted me, and until it came up, while I knew if he asked me to marry him, I was definitely interested, I was also well aware of his 2-year clause and was willing to work within that. I had made it clear that I had no interest in being in a relationship with ANYONE for longer than 2 year and not have it go anywhere. Waste of time, in my eyes.

And I did NOT give and now take away as a way to hook him for marriage! I hate that anyone might even think that.

This is tearing me up inside, not only because I love him dearly and don't want him to leave my life, but because I know the pain and torment I'm putting him through, and because I love him and know the pain he's experienced in the past, that's the LAST thing I wanted to do!

But I can't (or don't want to) tune out God's voice, which has become very loud.

As a couple have mentioned. Why is my master? My Lord, or my zipper?

LL

Guys/Gals, I shouldn't probably do this, but I have no one else to really bounce this off of. I'm putting his latest email (sent to me this morning) out here in it's entirety. Disect away. I was a bit calmer UNTIL I read it. I'm shaking again now and pretty sick...

I'm not at all sure of where to start. First, in your most recent e-mails you've referenced Michelle an awful lot and basically put my "commitment issues" on the shoulders of that situation. Let me state that any lack of commitment on my part probably has as much, if not more, to do with other things I've gone through in life and other fights I've had to fight besides the Michelle issues. In general, I think the thing that has been most difficult to deal with in pondering our current issue is the fact that I was truly hoping for a gradual and continual increase in our desires to be with each other over time. In that regard, I've always felt that when things were right, they would come very naturally and it would feel right. Well, nothing has felt "right" for me for 5 and a half years and I'm not real sure you truly understand the struggles I've had. Unlike your ex-husband and many single fathers, I've lived 5 1/2 years with NO desire to lose my fathering ability, however, I've lost almost all of it. It pains me beyond belief to know that my son interacts with and receives much more "fathering" from a man who was a complete stranger to him up until two years ago, when he has a very willing father who would love to be there for him. It's just enough ****** that I really don't want to deal with more, you know. I'm thinking you don't though and can't possibly understand what I've been through since your ex is so much different from myself.

Geez, this has already gone a totally different direction than what I thought. Getting back to some points you made in your e-mails. Considering our time together and my prior experiences. As I referenced last night on the phone, I really don't think we'll be effectively able to maintain something if we're spending overnights together, either at my place or yours. I really, really, really have no desire to go an extended period of time presenting myself with constant frustration. I've had enough of that over the past 5 1/2 years. Also, this whole thing about boundaries. A part of me says I should really push the envelope, see where this might go, perhaps it would even be fun. How far can one go without having intercourse??? After all, Clinton didn't have SEX in the Oval Office, did he??? I think you get my point. But moreso, my point is, the reason your having these thoughts and these difficulties is because your feeling guilty that your not giving enough of yourself to God, that perhaps I've become your Master. Well, truly, that's a constant struggle that doesn't end with a marriage certificate. What if you don't like some of my philosophies, choices, decisions once we're married? Truly also, what about those other things you put before God? There are plenty of "born-again", "Conservative" Christians who would be more than willing to stand up and state that embibing in alcoholic beverages is a sin, still more who would show you passages in the bible pertaining to symbols on the skin, etc. etc. etc. Where does it all end? Where are our boundaries here? Truly, we can spend a lot of time over the next several months worry ourselves sick, creating boundaries, experimenting with and testing boundaries, and basically driving ourselves CRAZY.

And yet, I understand fully why it is what your doing and the feelings your having. On a certain level they make sense spiritually so I truly do not wish to attack you. That's my biggest fear is that this whole thing will just eventually create resentment or will eventually lead to some irrational decisions on our part. Truly, I believe living apart while being married for two or more years is rather silly, irrational, and just plain crazy. After everything I've been through, I've definitely been looking for something that is less than weird, less than crazy, and doesn't drive me CRAZY.

I've been really thinking HARD about Thanksgiving and I realize that your family expects my presence. Beyond that, other than your sister, I think everyone else is also expecting to see someone who is totally smitten with you and very desirous of what's going on between us, basically, no issues. So, I've over the past 48 hours really thought that it would be appropriate to be there for the day and go home late in the evening Thursday evening. Also, I really would like to be able to watch the Nebraska game with my brother and father on Friday. Plus, have to work in my room on Saturday. Plus, if we are to proceed, which I'm just simply not willing to make a decision on yet, I'm totally confident that it will be proceeding in a fashion that WILL NOT include overnights and WILL NOT include ALONE time. That'll simply drive me crazy because, well, I'M A GUY!!!!

When did it start, what's happened to cause it...?
Try to discover WHAT REALLY awoke up that voice in you, what made it so loud... That'd give you some answers on many things...

Soooo... he still wants to spend Thanksgiving DAY with you (did I read that right?), and simply hasn't made a decision about the future yet (VERY FAIR, AND RATIONAL!!!).

This looks fair to me... he didn't dump you. Very well thought out. Why are you shaking?

Belonging,

Like it says on "the Grinch who stole Christmas" (one of my favorite Christmas shows)...

It started out low, and continued to grow...

That's how this started. Little things I'd see or hear would catch my attention and I'd wince, momentarily, but put them out of my head. And then it was just more and more, and the final straw was when I was just flipping channels on the way to his place one night and happened to land for a minute on a channel. There was talking. I started listening. Knew quickly it was one of the contemporary Christian channels in his area, and thought, "let's see what they're talking about".

Well, it wasn't specifically about sex outside marriage, but sexual immorality was part of it, and that happened to be the part that was on at the exact time I hit the channel.

Call it coincidence, but it seemed very loud to me. So then I felt compelled to actually pick up my Bible and do a little research. And that was when the voice got REALLY LOUD! (I had put my bible away and not touched it for almost three months.)

I have had experience with God getting my attention in the past when I was living outside his will. Eventually, he will yell at me in some form, if that's what it takes.

LL

OMGosh!!!!!!!!!!
I'm SO excited for you, LL!!!
He is not OUT of this at all!!
He's making every effort, and he's being very fair here!!!
This dude's got it going on if you ask me.
He's still coming for Thanksgiving! Then he's going to do some things to take care of himself...you need to do the same!
Let him come, be your regular wonderful self to him and just enjoy the day...let it be. Then let it rest for awhile. He said he was looking forward for things growing between you! You had him written off, and I don't hear that at all!
He wants some normalcy, bless his heart, and he's going to do what he has to do to get it-that's totally fair!
Maybe you two can consider what you CAN live with. I think that's what you need to think about the rest of the weekend. What you CAN do to live with yourself and your beliefs and see if you can work something out!
Oh, BTW, I've got no email, and we have work to do!!!
PLEASE! Let him come, let it be, and enjoy Thanksgiving with the man you love... deal with the rest later!!!!

I actually read his email, especially the last paragraph as sort of snotty. Like it was saying, "Fine, we'll put on the show, but I'm NOT deciding what I want to do, and I'm NOT doing overnights...and by the way, NOT DOING OVERNIGHTS IS GOING TO DRIVE ME NUTS BECAUSE I'M A GUY!

Partly, I say this because WE were looking forward to watching the Nebraska game together at my place. Now there's no mention of ME in the picture. I do understand his need to work on his paper on Saturday and it's something he can't do at my place. But it sounds like avoiding to me, and how can someone avoid and still have a relationship?

I was debating just saying, "Let's just call off being together on Thanksgiving to keep the pressure down."

Right now I just don't know what move to make.

LL

If you love him so much, and you are in so much turmoil over this....why wouldn't you jump at the opportunity to be with him? Are you SURE you want to be with this guy? It's sounding like he can't do anything right... ??
He's REALLY thought about all of this from what I can see, and is trying to come up with something...he MAY say, "can't do it", but give him a chance!

I got your email! See you tomorrow!
Until then,
Ms Clean

Drita: You are the coolest!!

LL: The guy likes you. It's obvious in the email. There is no reason for you to feel sick and not eating...never a reason for that where men are concerned anyway except when you are married and they are cheating!

IMHO you probably started sleeping with him too early in the relationship. Let's see, in early August you knew him 3 weeks and you started having sex a month after that, right? So as far as I can tell, from the time you met you had 7 weeks of "alone time" with no sex. Now is a perfect opportunity for you to start exploring your common interests. You two have been in the infatuation stage and it's easy for physical contact to get in the way of healthy conversation. So tomorrow, just relax and have fun. No serious chats but lots of laughs instead. Be his friend, because in the long run that's what is important.

I think if he wanted to call it quits, he had the perfect oppurtunity, and didn't take it. He cares for you, wants to spend Turkey day with you, so you SHOULD spend the day with him, and WORK THROUGH THIS CRISIS with him. Don't run. This problem was not created overnight, and it can't be solved overnight.

I honestly see caring, thoughtful words, although he's trying to be rational and NOT make hasty decisions, and he's not making any promises either way. But he IS promising to enjoy Thanksgiving, and to consider a future with you, if ya'll can work through this together.

If you pitch another fit and tell him NO to thanksgiving (he's already agreed to come!!!), that's just more drama.

LordsLady:

I admire your resolve and your dedication to Christianity. You did the right thing by telling this man that you're no longer willing to go against your moral values and have a sexual relationship with him. At this point, I have to stress that since you've done the right thing for YOU, it really doesn't matter if he continues to see you. If he feels that the sexual aspect of the relationship was so important that he'd rather LEAVE you completely than give it up, then he likely wasn't the right man for you.

LL, you are so charmingly… childish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yes? We’re listening to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have just read his mail and:

I understand him in all.
To be honest, I’d be afraid too, when and why and what might happen in the future if just flipping channels you hear something and say: "let's see what they're talking about". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And... I think he takes your words too seriously…


On the other hand, this even might work for you, to shake him and make him decide. At least, it worked for some people I know...
But don’t ever forget: insecurity (the same with any other 'issue') doesn’t end with a marriage certificate either…
(And I too think you could have some counseling in order…)

For anyone with nothing to do but read, I am going to post BF's email again with my responses included. Please tell me if I responded adequately, if I totally blew it again, or if I just should have not responded at all.

LL
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[i] [color:"red"] I probably should sit on this a while before responding and make sure I'm thiking clearly and saying exactly what I want to say, but wanted you to get it sometime today and am not sure what this evening will hold as far as email time yet. I'm going to respond to your comments in red.
[/color]
Good morning,

I'm not at all sure of where to start. [color:"red"]Can't blame you. I dropped quite a bomb. You can't see in my heart to know the pain it's causing me, both because of my own struggles, my pain at the thought of losing you AND because I know it's putting you through ******, and the last thing I want to do is hurt the person I love. [/color] First, in your most recent e-mails you've referenced Michelle an awful lot and basically put my "commitment issues" on the shoulders of that situation. [color:"red"]This is because over the months, whether you realize it or not, Michelle comes up a lot in trust/commitment conversations, so it was an assumption on my part that the pain you suffered in that relationship was a big factor in being so hesitant in the next. [/color] Let me state that any lack of commitment on my part probably has as much, if not more, to do with other things I've gone through in life and other fights I've had to fight besides the Michelle issues. In general, I think the thing that has been most difficult to deal with in pondering our current issue is the fact that I was truly hoping for a gradual and continual increase in our desires to be with each other over time. In that regard, I've always felt that when things were right, they would come very naturally and it would feel right. [color:"red"]This is the age-old issue of one person moving faster than the other in a relationship--something I think is all too common. It's not that I've had wedding bells ringing in my brain or that this latest development has anything to do with some ulterior motive I've had to trick you into something (just in case that's crossed your mind). Up to this point, I've been very content with how things were progressing. But I when I said I love you I meant it, and I guess not being as gun-shy as you are and having come from such a difficult marriage and knowing I was happy in trying to make that one work, I am pretty able to work with anything if I feel enough for the person. I take commitment very seriously. [/color] Well, nothing has felt "right" for me for 5 and a half years and I'm not real sure you truly understand the struggles I've had. Unlike your ex-husband and many single fathers, I've lived 5 1/2 years with NO desire to lose my fathering ability, however, I've lost almost all of it. It pains me beyond belief to know that my son interacts with and receives much more "fathering" from a man who was a complete stranger to him up until two years ago, when he has a very willing father who would love to be there for him. It's just enough ****** that I really don't want to deal with more, you know. I'm thinking you don't though and can't possibly understand what I've been through since your ex is so much different from myself. [color:"red"] While I've not experienced the same thing with my ex that you're doing for your kids, I am and have been totally impressed with your fathering, and it's one of the many things that attracts me to you. I'm not trying to come between you and your kids. I'm not expecting you to leave the area before your kids are older. And even my distance-marriage suggestion didn't, in my eyes, have any negative effect on your fathering. If you end up with Tarah living with you next summer, that's great. I'm not expecting you to spend more time at my place than you do right now. I was more thinking that I might have more freedom to come to yours, depending on Kait's situation and my dog situation. But even then, I wasn't wanting to "butt in" on your parenting. I just wanted to be with you.
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Geez, this has already gone a totally different direction than what I thought. Getting back to some points you made in your e-mails. Considering our time together and my prior experiences. As I referenced last night on the phone, I really don't think we'll be effectively able to maintain something if we're spending overnights together, either at my place or yours. [color:"red"] This may be the difference between a woman and a man. I hadn't totally ruled out the overnights your direction simply because if we have Tyler at your place, it's more of a slumber party and there is no opportunity for sex, yet it still allows us to spend quite a bit of time together getting to know each other better. But maybe that is still too frustrating. Yes, overnights at my place are trickier. [/color] I really, really, really have no desire to go an extended period of time presenting myself with constant frustration. [color:"red"] Me neither, nor do I think that's what God wants anyone to do. That's why other options had come to mind. (There are actually verses in Corinthians or Galations or somewhere that address that exact issue, but with an answer you're not comfortable--if one is burning with lust, it is better to marry). But this is totally dependent on two people sharing the same beliefs and the same level of feelings for each other, and I think this is what you and I are struggling with right now. [/color] I've had enough of that over the past 5 1/2 years. Also, this whole thing about boundaries. A part of me says I should really push the envelope, see where this might go, perhaps it would even be fun. How far can one go without having intercourse??? After all, Clinton didn't have SEX in the Oval Office, did he??? I think you get my point. [color:"red"] Yes, point well taken. [/color] But moreso, my point is, the reason your having these thoughts and these difficulties is because your feeling guilty that your not giving enough of yourself to God, that perhaps I've become your Master. [color:"red"] It's not that I don't feel I"m giving enough of myself to God, it's that he is making it clear to me that we are doing something that is very clearly not allowed per his word, and by doing that I am telling him that you (or physical gratification) are more important to me than he is. I can't continue to do that. I want to be in a relationship where we want to please God, not where we try and ignore him or rationalize around him. In a marriage, I don't think he sees anything wrong with constant sex, and even speaks strongly against withholding it. But outside marriage is a different story. [/color] Well, truly, that's a constant struggle that doesn't end with a marriage certificate. [color:"red"] First, if you marry someone who is a true Christian, they should want to make the Lord the center of their life and of their marriage. That in my eyes does NOT mean living in church 24/7 and being a religious zealot, but it does mean assessing their lives and making sure they are in line with what the bible says. The bible speaks a LOT about a Christian marriage and how close the husband/wife are supposed to be with each other, and how the husband is the leader, which I totally agree with. First point, you'll never really be able to 100% guarantee that your spouse is going to agree with you on everything once you're married any more than they'll agree with everything before you're married. That would be utopia, and I'm convinced it just doesn't exist here on this planet. That's where being strong and committed enough to work through issues comes in. Second, unless your choices, philosophies, decisions go totally against what God's word says, I can't imagine my disagreeing with them to the point it would become a major situation. The only issues I disagreed in a major way with John were his abuse of alcohol and drugs, his pornography issues, his being away ALL THE TIME with his friends and ignoring his family and never calling, and well..that "other woman" thing. I didn't even push his lack of desire for physical intimacy, which in hindsight I should have. Do you have specific issues in mind? If so, maybe we should discuss them. I truly will be honest with you and if they look like they're something I'll disagree with, I'll tell you now. I don't want to play games. [/color] What if you don't like some of my philosophies, choices, decisions once we're married? Truly also, what about those other things you put before God? There are plenty of "born-again", "Conservative" Christians who would be more than willing to stand up and state that embibing in alcoholic beverages is a sin [color:"red"] these are the things we need to discuss beforehand if you feel they are issues--in your example, I can't find biblical evidence that says "don't drink", I only see "drunkenness" as an issue. I think you have to look at how it's written[/color] ., still more who would show you passages in the bible pertaining to symbols on the skin, etc. etc. etc. [color:"red"] yes, I have a tattoo, and yes I thought a little about that--but where it's mentioned is in the OT, and it to me refers more to things that were done to worship other Gods. This is body art, it's not meant to worship anything. [/color] Where does it all end? Where are our boundaries here? Truly, we can spend a lot of time over the next several months worry ourselves sick, creating boundaries, experimenting with and testing boundaries, and basically driving ourselves CRAZY. [color:"red"] I do NOT want to go crazy. I do think that it would be helpful for both of us to pray, and to dig out out dusty bibles and read a little, and even maybe to talk to someone, depending on how strongly we feel for each other and if we think our relationship is worth pursuing.
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And yet, I understand fully why it is what your doing and the feelings your having. On a certain level they make sense spiritually so I truly do not wish to attack you. [color:"red"] And I'm going to step WAYYYY out on a limb here and say something crazy: It came to my mind that perhaps God is not only speaking to me, but through this and how it's playing out, he may be speaking to you as a fellow Christian, too, asking you to align your life with his in order to get his blessing. I'm not saying you'd win the lotto or anything, or even that your situation with your kids would change, but who knows...maybe he is saying, "BF and LL, BOTH of you listen to me...you need ME in your lifes and you need to follow MY principles for your life in order to really feel the peace you both seek. If you'll trust me, I'll help you." [/color] That's my biggest fear is that this whole thing will just eventually create resentment or will eventually lead to some irrational decisions on our part. Truly, I believe living apart while being married for two or more years is rather silly, irrational, and just plain crazy. After everything I've been through, I've definitely been looking for something that is less than weird, less than crazy, and doesn't drive me CRAZY. [color:"red"] On that one, it would not be the "normal" idea of marriage, but there a lot of things in that respect that aren't normal. People who work different shifts so their kids don't have to go to daycare, who rarely ever see each other except for passing in the halls--they sometimes do this for years--it's not easy, but they manage. Some peoples' spouses travel every week--they have weekend marriages--they make it work, and it's often not just temporary. Besides my assistant who is in that situation, I have a colleague whose wife travels almost every week AND she's been located in their home in Florida trying to sell it since last March while he's been here. They see each other at best once every couple weeks. And you have the spouses who have been called to active duty in the military, who are stuck in Iraq for a year. Granted, they're not facing the temptation of being with the person they love and not being able to show that love. But I'm willing to bet they, especially the guys, are dealing with some very strong sex drives and that under the pressure and stress they often face, there are tempting and frustrating moments they have to get through. Finally, you will never find a perfect marriage (if you do, you have my sincere but very shocked congratuations). Seriously, do you know a couple who has been married for any length of time who has not faced a serious issue or two? Some people face them and work through them and use them as an opportunity to grow and to appreciate each other more; others give up and divorce.
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I've been really thinking HARD about Thanksgiving and I realize that your family expects my presence. [color:"red"] And while my family expects your presence, and I miss you, it is not your worry if I need to explain why you are not there, should you choose not to come. I don't either of us to have to put on a show or for you to be totally uncomfortable. [/color] Beyond that, other than your sister, I think everyone else is also expecting to see someone who is totally smitten with you and very desirous of what's going on between us, basically, no issues. So, I've over the past 48 hours really thought that it would be appropriate to be there for the day and go home late in the evening Thursday evening. Also, I really would like to be able to watch the Nebraska game with my brother and father on Friday. Plus, have to work in my room on Saturday. Plus, if we are to proceed, which I'm just simply not willing to make a decision on yet, I'm totally confident that it will be proceeding in a fashion that WILL NOT include overnights and WILL NOT include ALONE time. That'll simply drive me crazy because, well, I'M A GUY!!!! [color:"red"] Can you clarify your last two sentences. Maybe I'm dense, but interpretation makes all the difference in the world sometimes...if it's wrong, it can cause a lot of problems. Do you mean you don't want overnights or alone time because those two things will drive you crazy because you're a guy -- or -- you don't want those things but not having them will drive you crazy because you're a guy?
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Okay, gotta send this before I lose my connection. Of to get the kids. Perhaps more later.

[color:"red"] Let me know your plans one way or the other, either by email or phone call tonight. K? Right now my interpretation is that you'll be at my place, but you could change your mind. I'll try not to push more than that. [/color]

I think that e-mail communication is dangerous. You should either talk like adults (on phone), or not at all. Let's face it, you each have written a ton, and I still can't even tell (nor can you, apparently), if he is coming for Thanksgiving tomorrow.

But having read his letter and your reply, here is how I would feel if I were him.

I would feel that I met a great woman last summer, who liked me a lot too, liked me so much in fact that she started picturing marriage with me (and I think that is pretty much on the mark). Then, I would think, she started having sex with me, because we both wanted it. But soon enough, she said that sex is wrong and she won't have sex with me unless we were married.

So, I would think, she probably had sex with me as a tool to get me to marry her. And then I would see her e-mails, suggesting long-distance marriage, and I would become even further convinced that this was all manipulation into a marriage proposal, DESPITE the fact that I had made it abundantly clear at the outset that I have a 2-year rule for whatever reasons.

The "God doesn't want me to have sex before marriage" would sound really holow to me - first, we have been having sex for months, and second I would know that this woman had sex with others outside of marriage before. So, to me, this would really come across as a manipulative tool, especially when it was then repeated to me over and over that we can get married and live apart for two years. I would feel tricked and manipulated, and I would be livid.

LL, you say that you do not hear wedding bells (which is not true, I don't think), but then you repeat over and over to him that long-distance marriage can work, has worked for your colleague, etc. That makes it sound precisely like you are saying "if you wanna have sex, you need to marry me", which would seem like a huge bait and switch.

Why are you even considering marriage with a man with whom you OBVIOUSLY have huge, gargantuan issues to work out? Do you think marriage would resolve those issues? Why are you even considering marriage with a man who seems to have huge doubts about you? Do you think that marriage will make his doubts go away? I doubt it.

My suggestion, which I don't think you'll take, is to call him and ask him if he is coming tomorrow (if he does not answer, I would enunciate very clearly into the answering machine that you are assuming that he is NOT coming, and that you will talk to him sometime in the future). Next time you talk to him (in person or on phone), lose all the marriage talk. Lose all the sex talk. Try to talk about other aspects of your lives. Joke a little.

Do not continue this spiral of arguing about marriage, it is a spiral that only flows in the worst possible direction. You will never ever convince somebody that they should marry you, and that is how your arguing appears to him right now. He needs to want to marry you - NOT because then you'll have sex with him, but because he would have chosen you over all others. Let me ask you this very simple question: In the past few days, have you behaved in a way that would make him CHOOSE you out of the crowd? Or have you tried to push him in a certain direction? Do you think he sees you today as someone he would want to be married to?

You are no more ready to marry this guy than he is you; I hope that you will take a nice long break from the marriage idea, and try to rebuild the relationship, which at this point has a very negative balance - not a good stepping stone to a marriage proposal.

AGG

AGG,

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. And in rereading the things I've written, while the last thing I'm trying to do is bait and switch, I can see how that could be easily assumed. And that makes me sicker.

Yes, he knew I had sex with my ex before we married--for 4 years to be exact. He also knows that I wasn't a Christian at that point. He also knows I had a casual sex experience with the guy I dated 5 times during the summer--also knows how sick that made me for many reasons and how quickly it brought that whole deal to a screaching halt. I did voice my goals of waiting 'til marriage with him in the beginning, but I'm guessing my past gave him reason not to really "hear" them, and then of course I proved him right.

Yes, I do think future with him. My initial suggestion of the long-distance marriage wasn't something we should do right this second anyway. I did say had he asked me, I'd have said yes at this point, because I love him. My cooky marriage suggestion originally was to try and find a way to keep sex off-limits for the next 7 months (which would put us at a year together) and then if we felt we were happy together and knew each other well, the long-distance marriage idea could be an option. But it probably sounds like I'm asking for it right now. I'm not. I'm wanting to tone things down...get them back to a "dating" level for several months and try to rebuild things.

But my gut feeling still is that there is so much damage done, and that sex is so all-fired important to him, that even if he DOES love me, he loves sex more, and that will make his decision.

I haven't heard from him since my email I sent, not that it's that unusual. He may be not responding for a reason, or he may be waiting to talk to me. It is 9pm. When things were good we always called each other between now and 10pm each night.

I should probably wait for his call, but I really do need to know about thanksgiving so I can start prepping people if he's not coming. I owe my mom a call yet tonight and she's going to ask.

LL

LL, if you have learned anything from Harley, it is that love is conditional. Therefore, it's not a question of him loving sex more than him loving you, but rather that this whole sex fiasco may have made huge withdrawals from his 'ol Love Bank.

Realize that his love, no doubt, has diminished in the past few days. So now would be the absolute wrong time to be discussing marriage. And if he ends things with you, it is not because of his love of sex, but because of your relentless lovebusting.

I told you last summer that while Infatuation is great, the important phases are Disillusionment and Negotiation. He is currently very Disillusioned with you (and you with him), and you need to live through this phase before trying to enter the Negotiation phase.

The phase where you are now is when you no longer look at him as "Mr. Wonderful", but as a nice but less-than-perfect guy. This is the phase for you to really consider if you want to accept this guy with all his flaws, which you are now seeing. He is doing the same, which is good.

But instead of doing that, you are trying to pacify the normal pains and doubts of the Disillusionment phase by coming on too strong, being needy, and impulsive. Thinking that marriage might help things along. Nonsense. That will not get you through this; that will cement in his mind that his doubts have solid basis. And, you bet, he will start loving you less and less.

You are lovebusting all over the place these days - and when you do, you cannot then say that he never loved you - you need to accept that your lovebusting killed his love.

I'll say it again - pretend you only met him today for the first time - how would you go about getting him to like you? Not by pushing and pressuring him, right? What would you do? Why not do that now?

I think a phone call regarding Thanksgiving is fine, I wouldn't even wait for him to call. I would call, ask him very calmly if he is coming, without discussing the past few days. If he says "yes", you say "great!". If he says "no", you say "great!". If he says "well, I dunno, I need to think, I am confused, what do you want?", you say "You are invited and welcome, I hope to see you, please let me know what you decide at your earliest convenience".

AGG

I did call him to ask about thanksgiving. We ended up talking for over an hour. At least he's still talking. Yes, he's coming tomorrow. Not staying too late--may watch Survivor here, or may go home beforehand. Told him he didn't need to be here until around 1pm if he wanted to bum around home first. He said he'd arrive around 11am.

Yes, he's frustrated, and he's confused, and then he's very nervous. And I guess I understand it. His thought process is this: It's going to be very, very hard to try and do this, and he's not sure he wants to even attempt something so frustrating when I sort of already had two strikes against me. They are things he and I have discussed, and that for the most part he's been able to get past, but this threw such a huge wrench in things that it brought both of them up to the forefront.

The first is the whole situation with our initial meeting. Like he said, if he'd have told ANYONE what was going on with me at that point, they'd all have told him to run away as fast as he could. But for some reason, he stayed. I think some was interest, and some may have been a challenge of sorts. (I don't really understand men and challenge but it's there).

Second red flag is that he's figured out that about once every 3 weeks, I freak out about something and get it stuck in my head and it's hard to make it go away. I ruminate on it. He does admit that as of late, it's been things about my daughter which, while they stress the relationship because his parental side wants to come out and it can't, he somewhat understands my worry and my focus there.

But then this TOTALLY out of the blue. I told him there were a few times that I made some subtle hints. His response, "LL, you were married to a guy for 19 years. Did it EVER work to be subtle with him? If you want to know how guys think, one thing to know is that you can't be subtle!" Okay, so now I know.

Anyway, his point is that I'm already sort of at three big strikes where red flags in his brain are concerned (the third not so much being WHY I'm doing what I'm doing, because he still claims to understand, but HOW I did it after three months of activity and no warning). The first two were part of why he wanted to move slower. He did, however, discount my statement where I said I thought I had moved faster emotionally in the relationship than he had--he said he was pretty much on track with me up until now thinking it was heading in a permanent direction at some point, though just a slower pace than I was thinking.

So his point: What next, LL? What's the next big red flag going to be? Why put forth something that is going to be extreme effort at this point to put the cat back into the bag if there's just going to be something else.

My suggestion: BF, let's try, with the understanding that if some big thing like that happens, you have every right to end things right then.

Second statement: LL, I'm almost willing to bet that we will end up back in the sack by Feb 1. Then what? We're going to feel frustrated, you're going to be freaked out and crying. (I assured him that while I want to believe this can be a 100% perfection thing, that I am aware that people sometimes stumble along the path as they grow. If we do, I will NOT end up crying, though I will be upset with myself the next day. If we fall, we won't keep doing it just because it happened again. We will assess what happened and try something different.)

He also asked a couple interesting questions: LL, what if we got married and then you decided you found some other thing that the Bible said was wrong and you decided you couldn't do it. (I know he's thinking I"m going to become a prude.) So we did talk that one out pretty well, as he made a half-joking comment about guessing he better start doing some reading (I think meaning he better make sure there aren't any other potential issues in that arena we might have to deal with.)

On the plus side, he does still maintain that he truly wants a Christian marriage with someone someday. And when I asked if he was willing to pray (not necessarily with me) to God to give him strength and guidance through this, he got almost indignant and said something like, "Well yeah, that's what Christians do, isn't it?"

He really doesn't like me on here getting advice, so I need to be careful. He feels that it's just a bunch of people I don't even know and that rather upsets him. But he's also very sensitive because my predecessor spent a lot of on-line time when he wasn't around, and it was with other men, one of whom she ended up having a relationship with. So he's nervous.

So I figured he'd be really torqued if I told him I shared all this with one of my pastors, because my ex always got angry when I went to them. He actually was pretty okay with it--said he'd rather have me do that than get advice from strangers, so long as it was never behind closed doors with a pastor of the opposite sex (it was on the phone).

However, he is very clear that he has NOT made a decision yet as to if we are moving forward. We're just talking ideas right now. He may do Thanksgiving to live up to the obligations he feels, and then decide fairly quickly that there are just too many issues to make it worth even trying this.

I'm praying. It feels overwhelming from all angles.

LL

your view of reasons for counseling is very, very limited, based on your concrete examples, and one abstract example, non hatred. look at the messes that you get yourself into, and ask yourself WHY? look at the situations that you are in and say, HOW CAN I ACHIEVE MY LONG TERM GOAL?


your goals and your actions are contradictory, as well as any sports or success psychologist would point out, [color:"blue"]you are acting with lots of self sabotage in your man quest.[/color]

counseling might be able to work with you to uncover the reasons [color:"red"] and maybe even help with solutions[/color] for your incongruent behaviors undermining your manquest, and your lack of understanding of relationship dances.

if you want to improve yourself by understanding and practice, get some counseling,
if you just want to get out to convince someone to marry you with the only tools you have, high probablity of making the same mistakes again, because you haven't learned how and why not to make them, keep up what you are doing.


again, you have rationalizations and beliefs that keep you stuck in your own drama, and in the end its your drama and your life, if you like the kind of drama that I quoted from the reactions of people of interest to your life. . .

wiftty

Well, I went to bed last night praying to God for guidance and somewhat at peace.

I woke this morning with this thought: What are we gong to do? All that we've shared in the last three months, the feelings I have when we are close and holding or kissing (that have pretty much lead to bed every time)...all that. It's all gone. How do I keep him from being frustrated beyond belief? I don't want to give up our couch snuggling with TV or our kissing, but those are both "alone" time and if we do we're both going to be going nuts. And when do I get to see him if we can't share Sat/Sun together? How does one date long-distance and only see each other maybe on a Saturday afternoon? How do you build a relationship that way?

It's feeling so darned impossible this morning!

LL

LL, Happy THanksgiving! Enjoy today!

I think you and Wiftty were posting at the same time this morning, so you may not have seen his post.

I read a wonderful chapter in my latest book last night, Boundaries in Dating. It was on spirituality, and balancing God in your dating relationship - watching out for idolatry in your relationships - what to look for in a mate - how to decide if you're equally balanced, want the same things, etc. It briefly touches on not walking the talk vs struggling. There's a later chapter on physical relationship.

You and BF (YOU at least) can get books like this one, and others, to help think through tips, perspectives and guidance on where to go from here, to help find God's perspective... and help with that "frustration".... and figure out how your dating relationship can be a fulfilling and enjoyable one!!!!

Be thankful for today, and enjoy it! Say hi to Drita for us... or was she already there?

hugs,
Faith1