I agree with Faith, sounds very manipulative and immature. He is still very much testing your resolve and your boundaries, and I think he still thinks that under the right conditions (e.g. a motel room on a cold Nebraska night) you will give in to him. I find it annoying, if not insulting.

If you are not careful (or clear in your boundaries) all your future interactions will be marked by confusion, his attempts to go a bit further than you want, you slapping his hand, his acting hurt, and you feeling guilty.

Take a break, give both of you time to think, and then start dating as if you are starting with a clean sheet, not as if he has any "rights" to your body.

And BTW, while I do not share your view on celibacy, LL, I don't believe I ever said anything to imply that your choice is not right for you or that your BF does not need to respect it. I hope you didn't feel that that was my position, as it is not.

AGG

I whole-heartedly agree with Faith! I've been there, done that also!! It's something I've vowed to never do again!! No one deserves that behavior and I'm just as guilty of dishing it out as I am as receiving from the STBX.

I have a feeling you won't listen to any of this good advice so let me just say...when you email him back and tell him you will go with him...please suggest separate rooms.

Faith, Drita, AGG,

That's what I thought--that the comments look a little manipulative.

Granted, BF is rather a jokester so lots of our emails have had joking things back and forth, and little innuendos of this and that. He's that way around me, his kids, his brother, his parents, pretty much everyone. It's just his personality and for the most part it just makes him fun. We flip a lot of static back and forth sometimes, but nothing that has been hurtful or degrading.

I guess I'm just sensitive though, because the particular nature of the comment is related to the issue with which we are struggling and it does feel more hurtful. Maybe he's just trying to joke because that breaks the tension a bit for him. Maybe AGG is right and he's testing my boundaries (it'd be a warm San Antonio night, by the way), wanting to prove to me that I can't hold to what I say I can by putting me in that situation.

Maybe my boundary should just be: "Okay BF, no sex. Hands stay above the waist. Clothes stay on. Can you live with this?"

Why does this have to be so confusing? I guess for now I'll just sit tight and wait on his call tonight and see how that goes.

LL


LL

LL,
When all of this started, almost 2 weeks ago, and you were flipping that radio dial and you had this revelation... what was it that made you tell BF no more?
I think you need to be looking in your heart, asking God what it is that is okay FOR YOU. Not BF, not AGG, not me, not Faith...YOU, LL, what is acceptable for you to live with? What was it that you could not do that led you to where you are now, with the stress you have submitted yourself too... I thought initially this was to give you some peace, you felt you were not obeying God's plan for you...YOU ARE NOW! Why still the drama?
You thought BF would be gone. He's not, but now he's not what you want him to be.
I think you need to give yourself some time and figure out what it is that is causing you to keep doing this to you and those around you.... what is going to work FOR YOU< LL!!!

You started out saying sex was okay. Then, you changed the rules and said no sex. He dealt with this. You said a different form of release would be okay with you. When he tried that, you changed the rules and said that was wrong, too. It's no wonder BF is mightily confused and frustrated.

I'm guessing he's man enough to deal with the sexual frustration. He says he can and then you say you really don't believe what he says about that.

So now he asks you on a trip and asks if sharing a hotel room would be within your boundaries. It's email so I'm not sure how people managed to project sarcasm and zingers into the 'tone' of things. He had ??? after it and said he wasn't trying to bring the drill into things. He's confused. He was trying to lighten things up and ask what the new rules are since they change almost daily.


As much as you want the room to have your beliefs and feelings, you need to give BF the same options. If he's feeling frustrated, so be it. Let him have his feelings. Let him decide what he wants. Let him think for himself instead of you telling him what he's really thinking. Give what it is you hope to receive in return.

And please, give the man some major credit for riding this out. He's shown strength of character in accommodating your every wish here. Most of the negative stuff is what you've been projecting onto him and not things he has actually said and done.

Drita,

I keep asking God, and then I keep getting more and more confused, because things I thought were maybe acceptable seem to put us in a situation where sexual tension builds, and then I'm not comfortable with that. Maybe I just shouldn't ever date? (Don't like that idea any better..)

whoknew,

I have to say I agree totally with your email in regard to my being all over the board. BF has even said as much about trying to figure out who LL is anymore. I guess after this whole thing, LL is trying to figure out who LL is, too.

And it's hard to not have resolution one way or the other...to just sort of feel like we're hanging in the balance beating our heads on walls, which by the way is exactly how he said this would play out, because it's exactly how it played out with him when he was in his teens dating the woman he eventually married. They finally just threw their hands up and gave up and gave in after trying and failing over and over. That's just one of the reasons he's SO not wanting to do this again. He said he had two+ years of extreme frustration and disappointment back then. He had since resolved himself to sex outside marriage being acceptable.

And true, zingers or not, he should get credit for even sticking with me at this point. I've changed, and changed, and changed again. He has to think I'm more than a little insane after all this. But it wasn't like when I made my decision I had all my boundaries worked out, or even knew how it would all play out. I had no idea how he'd react at that point. I had hoped a little better, but I suppose it could have been much worse.

Okay, so say I go for now with kisses/hugs/cuddling is okay provided hands remain above the waist and if things start getting pushed beyond that we will either mutually agree to refocus on something else, he can excuse himself to deal with his sexual tension, or I will get up and walk out of the room, the apartment, whatever. Does that sound like a clear statement to give him? Thing is, I can't promise this is my boundary 100%. It could change depending on if this does or doesn't work. But if I say this, and apply that to even his possible invitation to San Antonio, does it sound realistic, or just plain NUTS!??

And guys, if you really cared for someone and had been seeing them for 5 months, and you did in some way understand that there was a very important reason that your girlfriend had changed and made a celibacy-until-marriage decision (whether it be faith-based or something else that she felt very strongly about), and you were well aware that there was nothing physically wrong with her, the sex had been good, and that her sex drive was just fine, would you be willing to wait for a period of months, possible a year or two, and find other methods of release, or would you dump her for someone who would have sex now?

LL

Drita,

I forgot to answer a question you asked. What was it that made me make this decision? Yes, the radio program was just the final straw that broke the camel's back. It was enough to get me to be brave enough to pick up the Bible I hadn't cracked open in three months and do a little research on what God has to say about sex, and sexual immorality (fornication, specifically). And I pulled my head back out of the sand and said, "Whoa, I can't be doing this. I truly am deliberately sinning over and over. It's not like sex each time I'm with him is an accident. It's planned."

LL

This is why I said to take a break until you figure out what you want and don't want. You are a dating hazard in your present state, and seeing him at this time will most likely ruin any chance you have with him.

AGG

Why can't you say this is your boundary? It's YOUR boundary. Are you saying that he if 100% can't handle it and will walk because of it that you will cave and change YOUR boundary?

LL -

At this point, I think your boundary on the issue should not be as much for you as it is for him. Let's face it, it's probably a lot easier for you to push back from whatever you are doing than it is for him to. IMO, the boundaries should be whatever is going to keep things from going so far as to keep putting him at the point of getting extremely frustrated every time.

Normally, I would say that means the two of you should be sitting down to figure out realistically what those boundaries should be. But since he isn't enthusiastic about this in the first place, I'm not so sure how that talk would go. Still, I think that's the reason you're causing him so much confusion trying to figure out your boundaries on the fly like this - because the boundaries are really for him more than for you! He's the one who needs to tell you where they need to be, if he will. (When I sayd they are more for him... sure, they are for you, because you're the one who says no sex. But where to draw the line is for him, because you have a lot more flexibility in where that line can go without causing frustration than he does.)

AGG and Alluring,

I should clarify that boundary statement. No, I didn't mean that if I try this and he walks that I'll cave. I more meant it the other way. I don't believe it's right for us to go to places that are going to have him right on the edge of going nuts, because that in my eyes isn't exactly right either. It's causing him difficulty controlling his desires.

So what I meant is if I went with this boundary, but found that it left him extremely frustrated and he wasn't able to deal with it, or was pushing for more and more, it might have to be tightened up yet again.

I don't want him to be totally frustrated. I know that's just going to lead to more resentment.

Osxgirl,

I agree, we should have figured out the boundaries together. But, that would have been assuming we both came to the no-sex decision together. Yes, it's easier for me to push back, especially if I maintain important articles of clothing, like pants! But for him, five minutes of semi-passionate kissing and he's moving far down the path.

But if he calls tonight, and if the opportunity comes up in a friendly way, I may try and talk through my thoughts on these boundaries, so he knows in advance, and so that we both have an opportunity for input. And if he starts shutting down halfway through the talk, because it's having that dental visit feel again, well...not sure what I do then.

LL

Well, I think BF and I had our first nightly phone call since this whole ordeal began that didn't feel like a dental drill. It had a few awkward silences but overall we did okay.

I threw my boundary idea out for discussion. He first sort of was hesitant and avoiding, but I explained that I wanted him to know where I was, since I'd been pretty much all over the board, which he agreed with. While he wasn't thrilled with my boundary because it excludes something I once told him might be something we could do, I told him for now I'd rather just start here and see how it goes. It's a start, right? And I explained that I'm trying to come up with a compromise that keeps him from getting so worked up that he goes nuts but yet allows us to enjoy being close to each other.

His response, "I'm pretty much at your mercy..."

(Now, that wasn't said in a snide tone or with any sort of manipulative tone to it. He truly sounded rather beat. I felt bad for him in a way.)

So, at this moment he's trying.

As for when we'll see each other again, that's up to him. I tossed Thursday out there and asked how he wanted to handle it--should I come over or not? I also have been invited to a candle party that night, so told him so. He asked what I'd rather do. Well, DUH! I'd rather see him. But I told him, "BF, I'm leaving this up to you, and the weekend, too, as for how you want to handle it, because I want to let you decide what works best."

He's hesitant. I'm sure he just doesn't know what to do at this moment. So, he asked to think on things for 24 hours.

Oh, the San Antonio potential trip came up, too. I don't think it'll happen because we both agreed it would be very, very difficult to be in a hotel room together down there and not yield to temptation. So he may try and get his dad or brother to go with him, if he goes. Makes me sad--I think it'd be fun to road trip with him for that distance. But not smart.

He ended the call with "g-nite, babe". It's been rare to hear anything more than a frustrated "Good Night LL" since this started. Could all change tomorrow. But at least we ended pleasant tonight.

LL

I understand that. Your position is pretty clear from your posts. And I think that a lot of guys would respond actually very favorably to that. Women with strong moral values and with waiting for intimacy until a correct phase of the relationship are very respected by guys. And I am glad that your BF is on the same wavelength as you are. Lucky LL!

Generally, in order for a guy to understand the values and the position of a woman on the issue of waiting for sex until later, I think that she needs to be able to vocalize the feelings about it very well. If she does not want to discuss it, then he’ll think that something is wrong, as in: is she afraid of intimacy? what is wrong with me? Why does she not want me in? Am I doing something wrong? Is she purposefully delaying intimacy? Does she have zero or very low interest in sex?

And please remember: guys generally do not respond well with hints, or subtlety. That is not their strong suit, especially when it comes to sex. If a woman can’t talk to a guy about sex without blushing, or being embarrassed, or talking in hushed voices, she should practice until she can. If a guy perceives that talking about sex with him is hard for his partner, then he’ll just assume that the woman is not comfortable talking about sex, that she really does have a hang up with sex, and that she is just using morality as an excuse to withhold sex. She need to be able to explain your position clearly, firmly, calmly, and without any embarrassment.

Good luck, LL!

LL:

You do realize that not having sex won't kill anyone???

He's a man and not an animal(same as you). I would certainly venture to guess he has not screwed everybody that he has "passionately kissed" or has given him a Hrd On. You and him both act like not "releasing" these desires will kill him. Come On. If at his age, he has no more control than that - RUN.

I still say you deserve better than this.

I am also going to bring up something else that may be subconsciously at play with you. I really believe deep down, part of your motive in this is to try to get a commitment out of him. He's been very open about his intentions it seems to me. I can name several "excuses" he has put forth and I ain't even been there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Please quit making excuses for his zingers and frustration. Frustration won't kill either of you. I still say it sounds more like a case of friends with benefits or F... Buddy from my view. And yes, I will agree he has put up with a lot for these benefits, but I can show you other cases where men have put up with more than than for their "benefits."

[color:"blue"]I married a "jokester" and his personality included the tendency to poke fun at sensitive subjects and exchange a little static back and forth. I thought it was fun and stimulating.

When things were bad, though, the jokes were not funny, the zingers were likely to sting pretty good, and the static became more personal comments and less jokey horsing around.

To me this description seems like a very passive way of passing on a negative message that he is uncomfortable expressing directly. So he gets to let off a little steam and frustration, and meanwhile if things turn ugly, he can always say that "he was just joking"...

V. [/color]

Yes! sunny... I was thinking about this last night... soooo many times people pass-off the truth as a "joke". When does joking and teasing become sarcasm... when does sarcasm become hurtful... when does it become jabs.... when does it become mean and manipulative.... AND, like you said, it ALWAYS leaves an "out" for the person when they can say "I was just kidding!".

Especially in written word, there is NO tone of voice, so if you are an expert at knowing your reader, you know they ALWAYS know you're kidding, regardless of what you say. It's easy to get away with stuff in writing (anger, sarcasm, put-downs), and later say, "oh, I forgot to put a smiley-face! I was teasing!!!"

LL -

Sounds to me like talking with him about it - and not just talking, but helping him see that you aren't trying to control things, but instead trying to work with him to come to a good boundary you can both live with, may have helped difuse the situation some.

In other words - POJA. I know the "no sex" thing wasn't a POJA. But as a lot of people here have said, BF probably was feeling quite manipulated and like you were controlling everything. Instead of you being the one to just decide the issue, you need to tell him how you feel, and what your goals are with the boundaries (mainly, trying not to make him so frustrated, right?), and let him help figure out where the boundaries should be.

And, of course, easing up on things that feel like pressure to him. I think that's why the last conversation went better. It sounds like you have done both of those things now. The trick now is to keep it up. Keep open those lines of communication. If you start feeling uncomfortable about a direction something is taking, don't wait 6 months or a year while it builds up and goes farther and farther, and then suddenly explode one day while he says "what just happened here?" Talk about it right away!

I know you aren't out of the woods on this one yet. But you appear to be heading in the right direction now.

One last thing - I hesitated about posting about the passive aggressive behavior like some of the other posters here have. I was seeing it too, and having lived with an ex for 10 years for whom PA was a way of life, if it is a problem with BF, you may want to re-think him as a long-term prospect. PA is very emotionally abusive, and it creeps up on you before you realize what is happening.

The reason I hesitated, however, is because of the situation. It was an abnormal situation, making it hard to say if the behavior we were seeing was his normal reaction to not getting his way or being frustrated, or an unusual reaction to an unusual situation. So, the best I know to say here is.. be careful, and be aware. It is at least a bit of a warning sign. In light of this, I have a recommendation. There is a book called "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man," by Scott Wetzler. Why not get ahold of it and read it. It will give you an idea of what we are talking about, the type of person we were seeing signs of here. Then, if you don't see any of that in BF, great! But at least you'll have an idea of the behaviors we are concerned about here.

And again, I know from experience, guys that are like that are VERY good at hiding it while dating. Actually, the fact that he wants to wait so long before you get married is another thing that made me hesitate to mention it. Usually, PA personalities push the relationship forward fast, including marriage, because it is hard work for them to keep the PA tendencies hidden, so they want you hooked so they can let their guard down and not have to hide so much of themselves.

Anyway, just a few more of my thoughts.... It sounds like things are going better. Just a few things I think you might want to be on the lookout for.....

Averageguy,

I'm not sure my BF is exactly on my wavelength, but I do believe he understands WHY I'm asking what I'm asking, and he knows it's not related to underlying sexual issues. It was just a huge mistake to go there, and then take it away.

Becontent,

Actually, I'm truly not sure my BF has passionately kissed many women that he didn't end up sleeping with. While he admits during his 5.5 years of singleness after his DV to having probably been out with 40+ women, all but a handfull where first or second dates. He has never gotten past a third date with more than 4 people. And of those four, one ended at like the 4th date which based on how long it took him to kiss me (4 dates) probably meant he never got to passionate kissing. The other three (me being one) ended up as longer term relationships that did include sex. His first person to ever really seriously date was the woman he married because he met her at 17 and married at 20. So this is all very new to him--having to control himself in a serious relationship. And for me, it pretty much is as well, because I also married the guy I dated in my teens.

And while I admit I'd probably be happy if he'd make a permanent commitment and set a date that is much sooner than 2 years, that was NOT my motivation in pulling the sex out of things. It truly is completely biblically based.

Sunny & Faith,

I guess the jokester thing never bothered me as much, maybe because I can be a tad bit on the sarcastic side myself. I do consider some of the things BF has said to be zingers that probably weren't appropriate. I'm trying to weight them against the fact that he has only had about 2 weeks to digest this being dumped on him without his input.

His email about the San Antonio trip (which I won't be going on, btw) did include a big cheezy smily face after his 'xoxoxox', but I couldn't cut and past it into here.

I'm not making excuses for him. I'm trying to keep an open mind and have asked God to help me keep my eyes open.

I'm still going to bed feeling relatively calmed down, sleeping decently, and waking basically in a panic attack where I startle easily, am shaky and weak, am nauseaus, and can't concentrate but instead my brain just jumps from thought to thought to thought and it NEVER QUITS. I would love to just have a few moments where I could veg and think of NOTHING, but I can't seem to make it happen. I don't know why. I'm trying to figure out--it's gone on longer than is even normal for me. It was all triggered by my decision. Is it God still trying to tell me something (though as a Christian, I believe the bible warns against relying on 'feelings' because they're not to be trusted and this seems to be emotions that are impacting me physically). Is it my A/D's? I've never actually started on Lexapro before. I switched from Celexa to it, took it successfully for a good year or so, and then tapered off of it about a month ago.

I just want it all to stop. It's getting really hard to drag myself through my workday and put on the "I'm all happy and calm" show. I get about an hour or so at night, probably because I'm just exhausted, where I actually am calm and relaxed, and then I go to bed. And then about 10 minutes after I wake up, it starts all over again.

LL, I would check the internet or with your pharmacist about the side affects of you A/Ds.

I'm still not hearing you "listening" or being still long enough or being at peace with God, and this is starting to concern me. Have you cracked that Bible open any more?
Has this brought you any peace...your decision?
Where are you with God now?

Osxgirl,

You were posting when I was.

Yes, definitely not out of the woods yet! Long way to go there. I'm just happy we had a phone call that was not tense. But we've still only been together once since this whole thing blew up (okay, the 1.5 hours he was at my house on Thanksgiving that was beyond tense excluded). There is SO much damage to repair in terms of how close and trusting we were before vs. where we are now. But yes, I'm trying to back off the pressure a bit.

(Which means, I should not present him any time soon with my thoughts on why it might actually make sense to marry sooner than 2 years...and honestly, there are several very practical reasons that have nothing to do with even sex or love. But I'll keep that to myself for now.)

As for BF's personality, I do see a few selfish tendencies in him. He likes getting his way. But we've never had an issue between the two of us. He has been very giving and accommodating throughout our relationship. When my plans have changed several times and I've had to shorten time with him or re-arrange things, he's never made me feel bad about it. And really, to even come to my house on Thanksgiving, in preparation for meeting my entire family for the first time, with everything hanging over his head about the sex issue...that took guts. He did it because he follows through on what he says he's going to do. As it was, we decided it was best if he went on home before they arrived--too stressful--not the right situaton.

No, he's not perfect. If he were, he'd probably still be married. But after being married to an alcoholic for 19 years, he looks pretty darned normal.

As for that 2-year thing, I guess his feelings on that are as hard for me to understand as mine about no-sex are for him. On a certain level, just as he understand and sort of agrees where I'm coming from, I feel the same about his decision. He is nervous about making sure he knows someone well before he commits the rest of his life to them--he was badly burned by the last woman. And second, he sees a long-distance, weekends-only marriage as totally crazy and abnormal, and there is no way around that for either of us for somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 years. He's looking for calm and peace and stability--something he hasn't had a lot of in the last 5 years. And he's not seeing how rushing a marriage and living apart for 2 years will help that.

I disagree on a number of levels, but right now is not the time to question his logic.

LL