I don't know how everyone else feels about OP, but right now I'm feeling pretty fond of her. I have spoken to her twice in the last couple of weeks, and I think she's really determined to do what's right -- even though she believes it will be at the expense of her happiness. I know that in the end she will be grateful for her decisions now, but I'm pretty impressed that she can make these decisions while still deeply in the fog.

If it were up to WH they would be together. I know that's what she wants as well, but because she knows and likes me and because she doesn't want to devastate her family any more, she's trying really hard to be strong. I do know that it may be temporary strength, so I am staying vigilant, but I think the longer we can all go without REAL contact, the closer we will be to getting through this.

WH has had some "sightings" of her, I know. It's inevitable with our current situation. We do have our house up for sale, just haven't had any bites as yet. So in the meantime I'm just trying to be patient and show him what he would be missing if he left -- especially if he left for no one! I really have seen some progress in him as well. He seems a little more okay with staying, and has been quite kind, if still a little distant.

I'm not exactly sure why I posted this, was just feeling kind of hopeful and happy and wanted to share. Thanks for listening!

WOM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dear Workin on me,

If the OW were truly a good person, they wouldn't have become an OW! There has to be an element of being able to lie and be deceitful in this kind of relationship. It is not a "dating" relationship, it is/was an A! I wouldn't try to have any more contact, it sounds like a lot of drama!

nab

There is no guile in OW???

nab and Aphelion,

No, I don't believe the OW is without guile or that what she did wasn't wrong. I believe she is a good person who made a really REALLY big mistake. I can understand making mistakes. I think what really counts now is making it right, and I believe she is trying to do that.

I don't always have such kind feelings toward her, but I guess right now it just seems like things are going all right...okay, okay, that's when I need to really watch out, right? I will, truly.

The contact I've had with her has been initiated by her. She asked me to do her a favor (one that I have done for her in the past and enjoyed very much). I feel that if I'm kind to her she will continue to have good thoughts and feelings about me and will be less likely to want to hurt my M any more than she has. Okay, does everyone think I'm being naive? I'm definitely a lot less naive than I was a year ago, but maybe I'm still a pollyanna. Any more thoughts?

WOM

Well, I would still suggest (1) no contact with her, if you want your WH to abide by this, you should have the same rule and (2) not to believe her. She may have guilt, which it sounds likely she does, but the fact that she is making contact with you is like trying to get her WH fix by talking to you. This is an addiction that can only improve by all parties staying away from each other. I imagine that after her contact with you, you discussed this with WH, which brings her up to him, and on it goes.

Try to be strong and don't take crumbs from your WH (sometimes he is nice to me). Good luck!

<<hugs>>

nab

Always beware of the wolf in sheep's clothing.

If this was a friend of yours in the past, that should not, and cannot be for the future, for the temptation that was caved in to once before may rear it's ugly head again.

No contact goes not only for the A partners, but also for the respected Betrayed Spouses. The loss of friendship is collateral damage, and a real shame in most cases. However, remember she was NO friend at the time she crossed her own, and you husbands boundaries into the A.

To expect and enact anything but full no contact for the rest of your married life would be tempting fate in the worst of ways, and could prove to be devastating.

I will point out, however, on the bright side, that forgiveness of the OW is a necessary part of recovery. To carry hate and ill will into your recovering marriage will only postpone the full process. If that's where you're "at", then good for you!

JMHO
SD

Thanks for your insight, nab and SD. I do believe you're right about it being best not to have any contact whatsoever with her. It really does just bring it all back up for all of us every time. I really can't wait until we can get out of this town, but until then I will be careful to avoid any more contact with her. But I still think she's trying to do what's right and that's going to be one of the major keys to us surviving this.

Thanks again!

WOM

The contact was initiated by her, and it was a favor? She wants a favor from the wife of the man she slept with? No. She is using you. Also, just because you are kind to her does not mean she will not try to destroy your marriage. I agree with SD - beware of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Other woman and truly good person is an oxymoron. Forget about being kind and friendly to her. Instead be kind to yourself and cut contact with a woman who has hurt you and most likely will try to again in the future. I hope you and your husband are able to move on from the affair and work on your recovery. Best of luck to you.

workin on me - Yes, it would appear that you might be somewhat naive. The good news is that it doesn't have to be fatal. Most us WERE naive in the "arena of infidelity" and one positive that often comes out of the experience is a better understanding of what Standards and Boundaries are, and that all choices have consequences.

Let's just say this OW is manipulating you to get you to believe that she's "truly a good person" because that will make it easier for HER. As in MOST cases of someone who has chosen to do "evil," they are "sorry" that they got caught, but the effects of their "good person choice" will adversely affect you and your husband, and potentially your son, for the rest of your lives. There is NO "undoing" what was done, no matter how they might want to make you think they are are "good person." Most "evil doers" have mastered the art of "appearance" and don't "appear" all evil on the "outside." Many are the people who "knew" someone who are "shocked" when they find out what that "real nice person" actually was capable of doing. Don't be fooled twice.

I understand that the OW, is not a "raving lunatic," but what she chose to inflict upon you and your family was no accidental "oops." It was calculated by Selfish Self-interest and there is NO indication that will change at all. In fact, the opposite seems to be the reality. She will continue to manipulate and "appear" to be a "good girl" to get whatever it is SHE decides she wants or needs. Thats the idea behind her asking you do her a "favor." She sees you as "weak and vulnerable" and she is practiced at telling people what she thinks they want to hear in order to "get what she wants."

It IS possible for her to change, but that entails a real "conversion experience" that includes conviction of sinful behavior, remorse, turning away from it permanently, confessing the sin, taking full responsibility for their choice(s) and the consequences, and seeking forgiveness. I don't hear that here. I here manipulation to get to think she "accidentally stubbed her toe" and fell into your husband's lap, but she's "really just a good girl who didn't mean to steal something that didn't belong to her."

I also heard nothing in your posts here about how your husband views the whole thing, but without remorse on his part, the fires of infidelity will continue to smolder underground.

"If it were up to WH they would be together."
"No current official NC, but I believe
there is NC anyway, due to OW wanting
to do what's right."

workin on me - those two quotes tell it all right now. I do not hear remorse, I hear "victim." I do not hear choice, I hear "if I can't have you I'll tolerate second choice for MY benefit."

If the two of you are not in joint Marital counseling with a trained, and pro-marriage, counselor, you are headed for long-term trouble. Sooner or later your husband's issues that have been swept under the rug will resurface, and it won't matter WHERE you move to or how far away. There are PLENTY of "willing OP's" everywhere.

In short, your husband has NOT chosen, hence the lack of a No Contact letter to formalize that choice. He is "settling for." You ARE still "backup choice" at this point in your attempted reconciliation and that, while perhaps tolerable for the short-term as you work through initial stages of recovery, is NOT a marriage and is not a long-term solution unless YOU are comfortable with "sharing" your husband with another woman ala the "polyamory" sort of philosophy of self indulgence and justification. If not, then perhaps a needed starting point, or at least one of the starting points, is for the two of you to learn as much as you can about STANDARDS and BOUNDARIES, so that you will have a clear understanding of them and the ability to CHOOSE and IMPLEMENT them in your lives.

I don't know if faith plays a role in your lives, but if it does, then learning more about God's roles for husbands and wives will also play a big part in your recovery efforts.

God bless.

WOM, I understand where you're coming from; I hear my own words and experiences in what you're saying. I did it too--I actually TOLD FOW that she wasn't a "bad person", that she was a good person who made a horribly devastating choice. Tried desperately to be the good, solid Christian I needed to be. Tried to let my belief that people can change override the negative thoughts that were ONLY NATURAL for what I was going through. I tried, I tried, I tried some more. I actually succeeded for a while.

Where did it get us? All of us? Well, it got me to the point of a nervous breakdown. I went "above and beyond the call of duty", and it bit me in the butt. Big time. I look back now and get physically ill that I tried to make HER feel BETTER when she ranted and raved to ME about how it's not fair that my husband gets to keep HIS life but SHE has to lose everything...that was the beginning of the end for me, and moving didn't make my pollyanna any more realistic.

We moved across the Atlantic Ocean! We now live in a different country, and while I still tried to be "nice" and let the venom remain buried, it was still affecting me and my marriage. Oddly enough, it was a combination of my own husband and HERS talking to me at the same time about how I seemed to be slowly self-destructing because somehow I believed she "deserved" the chance to prove herself "a good person" than I did to have peace in my life and once I stopped concerning myself with her life and her welfare, I felt SO much better. It took having SEVERAL people tell me over and over again that it was not ME who had done something that needed to be atoned for and that I had no obligation to concern myself in the very least for HER recovery.

What ultimately became of the FWH's and FOW's relationship? Contact resumed between them and all you-know-what broke loose. More lies, more deceit, and this "good person" ended up using their contact almost as blackmail with my FWH. My feelings and FOWH's feelings got trampled on all over again and both of us were told we don't deserve any explanation for any of our questions to her because it won't benefit her. Far cry from the I'll-do-anything-I-can-good "person routine". My FWH and I went back to square one in our recovery. Would I do things differently? You betcha!

What can you learn from my mistakes? Don't worry about the FOW. Her recovery is her problem. It's not up to you to determine whether she's a "good person" or not. Focus on your own and your H's recovery, and write this OW out of your life. Forever.

I for one have never been happy with the emphasizing the blame of the OP. I can understand the need for NC and I for one never felt any urge to get friendly with OM but saying that OP is unmoral and therefore should be avoided like the plague…

It takes two to tango. I do not see a moral nor Christian reason to lay blame on the OP but completely exonerate the WS. As a matter of fact the only party in the affair breaking direct vows to YOU is the BS. Yes I do know “What God has joined together let no man put asunder” but that is the OP breaking from God, not breaking my spouses vows to me.

Therefore the BS is in the least as much to blame and thereby is just as immoral and wrong. But yet we forgive them. Isn’t there some contradiction in saying “avoid person A because he/she is immoral” yet encouraging a BS to stay with WS who is equally immoral? Especially considering the BS will take part in the raising of your kids.

Forgiveness is one of the cornerstones of Christianity. I don’t really think selective forgiveness is. Selective forgiveness is more a result of the limitations of our mind and it’s capability to absorb sorrow and anger.

Total forgiveness must be the goal of reconciliation. Can you really have a healthy marriage without forgiveness? I doubt it. And I think this placing of blame on the OP is just a way many use to transform their feelings of unresolved blame. Is that healthy for recovery? Wouldn’t it be better to get the blame out of the picture – to resolve the issue? I know it’s hard but then, reconciliation and recovery IS hard.

I really think that in order to get total recovery (and also as a Christian) that eventually you have to forgive all parties. Forgiving and getting along with are two totally different things. I can fully understand never wanting to see OP but I truly think that as long as you don’t forgive you can’t move along. The OP will remain in your marriage in some form. My biggest breakthrough in recovery was forgiving the OM. Never told him or have never talked to him but I could forgive him and therefore get him out of my mind.

So if you find some therapeutic benefit from being in touch with the OW then please do so. Bear in mind the person has shown what her character is capable of and that having her in your life is probably not to the long-time benefit of your marriage. But then there is an old adage “keep your friends close but your enemies even closer”. I would see her comments about wanting your husband but being willing to sacrifice “true love” as a big red flag. Do what you truly feel is best for your recovery.

Bigger, yes the OP is immoral. Adultery is immoral and those who participate in it are immoral. There is no reason to pretend otherwise. It is "moral" to blame someone for their sin. The WS is blamed and the OP is blamed. There is nothing unChristian or "unmoral" about that.

Nor do I see the WS being "exonerated." They most certainly are not. Both parties are blamed. More effort, OF COURSE, is attributed to the reconciling with the WS because the BS is married to the WS. That doesn't mean the WS is less culpable, only that the relationship to the BS is very different and requires a different approach.

Forgiveness is an obligation of Christians to parties who are repentent and who WANT forgiveness. Otherwise it is an empty feel good measure. That has nothing to do with reconciling with an OP. There is absolutely no obligation to reconcile with anyone, regardless of forgiveness. You might forgive the repentent bank robber, but you don't give him the keys to the bank afterwards. Affording forgiveness does not mean affording trust or obligate one to future relations.

Have you ever watched Charlie Brown try to kick the football? Lucy just yanks it away from him each time. Yet Charlie Brown continues to be friends Lucy and continues to try and kick that ball. That is called trauma bonding.

My question is, why do you wish to bond with someone who damaged your family? Do you see your need? You feel that you have a need to make sure she has good thoughts and feelings about you.

working, I think Askme makes an excellent point and I would add that this is exactly what happened in the case of my OW. She "befriended" me also. Then last year she suggested contacting my H to "test" him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I told her no thanks, I would pass on the games. Sure enough, the next morning my H called me and said "ewwwwwwwwwwwwww, guess who IMed me last night??" [he was in a hotel out of town]

To the OW it was all a big, fun game. This was my life and my marriage and to her it was a grand opportunity to stir up trouble and maybe stroke her ego in the bargain. Needless to say, I put an end to her real quick. So, watch your back and stay away.

I do not want to thread jack but I do think this is a relevant and interesting point. I have seen so many posts where the BS obviously (and understandably) hates and blames the OP and passes moral judgement on them while accepting the WS who is equally as immoral. It is my sincere belief that this will not “affair proof” or improve a marriage. It’s more like blaming Jack Daniels for your drinking problem.

Being immoral is not the “big” issue here. We are all immoral in some way. “Let him who is without sin…”

I do acknowledge that it is imperative to improve the relationship with spouse as opposed to eventually forgive the OP. It’s just this basic fact of working towards forgiving the spouse by placing the blame on the OP I don’t go along with.

My reasons for pointing this out are not ethical or religious debate. It is my firm belief that total reconciliation must also include eventual forgiveness of the affair. Forgiveness does not equate to forgetting, denying or pretending it can’t happen again. I also believe that the only way to get OP out of your marriage is to eventually forgive them.

Forgiving the OP does not mean playing tennis with them weekly. You don’t have to have any interaction or even feel positive towards them. Don’t have to feel at all. I think that while you hate them and/or do not forgive them they are still affecting your marriage.

As a Christian I forgive more people than WANT forgiveness. If I remember correctly Jesus forgave his executioners without their repentance. I forgive to ease my soul (not my conscience). Well, he actually asked for their forgiveness.

Hmmmm...A's can happen to good, kind, honest and faithful people with high morals & ethics as well... I know because I consider myself (and several other FWS's here on MBers) to be one of these people. And in reality, every FWS is the XOP of another married man or woman. Some FWS’s and OP’s really are just normal and good people who have made bad choices...

I believe if the circumstances are right and the temptation is there, anyone can be capable of any sin... Satan can tempt anyone into sin...and sometimes Satan will especially focus on the faithful Children of God and try to bring them to a fall. Also, good, religious and strong people have human failings, weaknesses and sin as well...but it's ONLY through the grace and protection of God (and our obedience in Him) we can learn to rise above those things and stay strong.

bigger, I don't see folks blaming only the OP. I see alot of blame going towards the WS too, so am not sure what you are talking about. The OP should be blamed, and the WS should be blamed.

If you are forgiving folks who don't want your forgiveness or who haven't repented, then it is an empty feel good measure that helps no one. It might make you feel holy and sanctimonious, but other than that, it is an empty feel good measure.

God's standard is always repentence and he forces his forgiveness on no one. On the cross, Jesus stated "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That doesn't mean they were forgiven or got "special dispensation" that the rest of us didn't get, it meant he wanted them to be forgiven just as he wants ALL to be forgiven. But God's standard is repentence for all of us, and he didn't make exceptions.

We should never imagine that we have a higher standard than God. He doesn't pass out "forgiveness" like cheap candy to those who don't' want or care for forgiveness and neither should we. The purpose of forgiveness is reconciliation, not to make us feel holy moly, and if I have not repented, then reconciliation is impossible. I cannot reconcile with God if I am on my way into the bank to rob it because my sin stands between us. It is the same way with adultery. If the OP is not repentent and does not care about my 'forgiveness" then there is nothing TO forgive.

Christians sometimes confuse forgiveness with justification and they end up blending the two together. If someone walks up and punches you in the face for "NO REASON" you may be able to forgive them, but it will be hard to justify their reason for being punched in the face. So if we separate forgiveness and justification then we can say I forgive you for punching me, but what you did was not justified and was uncalled for. Forgiveness allows you to remove the anger from your heart against the person. Justification requires the offender to examine their actions and justify them.


P.S. I meant to add in that Christ by His grace justifies us and grants us mercy where no others do.

Titus 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I was a little slow on the OW learning curve, but heeding the advice of more experienced members here doubtless saved me a great deal more trouble. At the beginning of R #1, I saw the OW as this poor victim of my evil H's selfishness. I thought she was just like me, but on the other side, strung along by my H as he sat on the fence.

My H instinctively knew, better than I did, what had to be done, and in his NC letter told her she could no longer work for the co. She begged me for her job, saying that it would take her a little while to find another, and besides, we owed her a lot of money. I felt like I owed her something for what my H had done "to" her, and allowed her to stay with the understanding that anything was to be handled through me. She would send me her hours, contact me if there was any type of problem, me me me.

NC lasted for a little bit before collapsing. Just under 2 months from R #1 I confronted him again. The hows, whys, and wherefores make a very long story, but the long and the short of it is I had only learned part of a lesson. While I did not allow her to keep her job, I still kept in C with her because it was therapeutic for me.

We even talked on the phone a few times, chatting and getting to know each other. See? Neither one of us is a bad person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> After about a week my MB friends warned me against this, and I am grateful I heeded their advice, though at the time I saw no harm. Immediately I cut the personal stuff out and kept all C strictly business, strictly email, and only if it was really necessary.

It was amazing how quickly this 'poor woman' began to show her true nature after she was no longer getting her second-hand H fix. The insidious venom became outright malice, displayed at every possible opportunity. One of the most hurtful examples is that when I had to have her return some company property such as uniforms, she sent them, the keys and stuff, with a little 'care package' including love letters to my H, cards she had sent him that he sent back to her, his toothbrush, and more.

In September of this year I found out she was still getting a second-hand fix by logging into H's email and reading everything. (She had blocked my email address and unblocked hers, or I still wouldn't know. I made sure that before I changed the password that she had some good stuff to read. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

She is now so toxic, and I have reached such a sensitive place in my R, that even the occasional business C has become intolerable to me. Her jabs bring to the surface every bit of anger and hatred toward my WH (not my FWH - he's wonderful) that I am trying to conquer.

I forgive her for my own sake, but want nothing to do with her, ever. Just for the record, I am probably going to beg my mommy to handle her before I go ballistic. The sympathy card she sent to "FWH & Family", with unfamiliar handwriting and an out-of-town postmark, after finding out about the death in the family, was nearly the last straw.

That was last week.

Please follow through with taking the advice you have been given here. Even if OW was a good person before this, she has been changed - warped - by the experience. God can straighten her out, if she repents, but leave her in His hands.

Best wishes to you in this.

OW is truly a good person...

{gag, gag, gasp, gasp...}

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time swallowing this. The other person may not be the devil incarnate, but the op is an active party to the a and is just as responsible as the ws.

This "nice" op sounds like she is keeping contact with you h thru you. I have one word of advice. RUN!!!!!