This is my first post in this particular forum, however I started a thread some 2 years ago in the EN forum. My user name was ComplKated at the time, and I've posted to the thread recently. It's strange to read my emotional ups and downs over that time...

Short story version: H and I separated a little over a year ago after a few bad years. We married in 1989, 2 children.

He suffers from depression which had been untreated. Once he did start treatment he was all over the map for about a year until his meds got sorted, but the separation occurred during that time.

I asked him to move out. I initiated divorce proceedings over a year ago but only filed a few months ago - the hearing is on Dec. 7, and I'm regretful now.

I did move on first, well after H left our home. I recently had a relationship with another man, which failed for a number of reasons, not the least of which I realized that I still have deep abiding love for my husband - something I thought was long gone. I talked about H with this just befor the relationship ended. We had a good talk at that time and have talked a couple of more times as well.

H has moved on too - he has a long-distance relationship going on with someone he met online. I met my failed relationship online too, but not on a dating service, it was someone I've known for many years through business. There was never anything other than business between us until well after H left the home, and I was surprised when he made overtures. He lived far away but he relocated to my area - and then moved back when the relationship failed.

Since H has got help for his depression, he's returned to being the man I married. Even before I ended the other relationship I talked with H about this. He said he still loves me, he hasn't ruled out reconciliation as a possibility at some future point, BUT for now it's not an option as he is in love with his current girlfriend.

He let me move on - and I must let him - but it's killing me inside.

In another thread somebody posted a question that we should ask ourselves - from Dr. Phil, that read something like, "Do you love your spouse for how they love you and treat you now, or for what you thought they were?"

Here's my confusion. Since he's better, he treats me well. We get along so well - we own a business together, I work it full time, he works part time aside from his regular day job. Since my other relationship ended, he's been very gracious about that, he's been around more, we've spent a lot of time together, mostly work time, but some social time too. Every week we have dinner as a family with our children.

It was easier to consider divorce when he was still sick, doing drugs, and all kinds of other evil stuff. Now he's returned to being the man I married, and I'm having a hard time letting go, even though I did all the work to get him out of the house...

I felt that I had no choice but to separate given that we were both miserable, and he wasn't getting any help. One of my problems was that I enabled a lot of bad stuff to take place, and I took control and stopped it in my home. He continued for a while but I can see immense changes in him, for the better. To that end I am glad that he's better - that's all I ever wanted for him.

I invite him to participate in stuff with the kids and me. He does the same - I fixed him some supper last week one night when he'd been to a client's late after work. Did that a couple of nights actually (and he's the better cook!) Then on Thursday night when he takes our kids to the library, he called and invited me to eat with them - which I did.

If not for his relationship with his girlfriend, I'd think he wanted to reconcile. We've talked about it - like I said - but he's saying "not now"... perhaps not ever but he isn't sure.

His girlfriend is coming to visit him for a week in December - the same week our divorce is finalized and I'm crushed. It's going to be a tough enough week without seeing her with him - yep, selfish of me - but that's how I feel. H stood by while I was in my relationship and I have to admit he's a bigger person than I am. He was a bit of a pill at first about it, but by and large he was gracious, and I'm grateful for that. I told him that he could be the first to say, "I told you so"... but he didn't.

I guess I'm looking for some ideas here - for now I'm keeping the lines of communication open, I'm not making any sort of romantic overtures, but I am working to solidify the friendship and family time.

My guess is girlfriend wouldn't be too impressed if she knew how much time he spends with me/us, but I'm not interfering.

So there's the mixed signal - he's treating me better than he has in years, he is spending time with me and the family, but yet he doesn't want to reconcile...or does he? His words say one thing but his actions for the most part, say another. The only fly in the ointment is that he's got a girlfriend.

He did let me move on without interference - and I'm trying to do the same, but am I crazy to hope that once he gets this woman out of his system (like I did in my relationship) that there's a chance for us?

I know I sound fast to dismiss this other woman, but the logistics of this turning into anything long-term and permanent look pretty tough to me. H will not move there - he won't leave his children or his business here, and she has children and lives on the opposite coast, and I don't think either could afford such a move. He has told me she's thinking of moving out here, but there's no time frame and no talk of marriage. He admitted to me that he's not even sure if he's ready for all this, and that he still has issues to work on. In fact, I am not sure if it's for my benefit or not, but he casts a rather uncertain pall on his relationship with her when he speaks of her to me. I think if he was really so madly in love, the first words out of his mouth would have been "never in a thousand years" when I broached the subject of reconciliation. But they weren't. He said, he didn't know, maybe, but not right now....

I applaud him for owning his issues - for years he blamed me for every bad choice he ever made. I see many positive changes, and I've learned some hard lessons too, and am working on my own demons. We're both moving forward, on our own, and for ourselves, and that's a good thing - I just can't help but wonder if that journey will bring us together again? Or am I beating a tired, very dead horse?

Part of me wants to just keep on the way I am, slowly subtly getting closer to him again, but part of me is nervous that he's just passing time with us until he can set up housekeeping with his new g/f... but my gut tells me that this will run its course sooner or later.

I hate to be thought of as "second choice" but approaching it the way I came to realize things - I had another relationship and in that I realized that my husband IS my first choice - if that makes any sense? Some have told me that IF a couple can come back together after such a situation, that it's better than ever. From my end I really want to do that - there's a lot of things I would do differently this time around - of course that's all a moot point if he's not interested in trying. There's my struggle.

Can anybody offer any insight? Should I keep on loving my husband, even if I can only express it as his friend at this point? Or am I letting him have his cake and eat it too.. by keeping up family activities and time together, while he's got a playmate on the side? Or should I keep it strictly business and liberal visitation with the children? I really don't know what is the right thing to do now...

As I said we own a business together - he is talking long-term about it - for a while I thought he'd fade out of the business altogether but he has a renewed interest in it - which means long-term association with me on an almost daily basis. Is that a good sign? I would have thought that his moving on would gravitate him away from me or things associated with me.

Like I said - I'm confused. Divorce is looming and I can't stop it now.. but I wish I could.

When we talked originally I did say that I thought we should proceed with the divorce - that way if we did come together again it would be freely - not out of legal obligation etc.

I'm really looking for a man's perspective here - I know everybody's different but am I being naive, or is there hope?

I've been reading and praying for guidance and trying to do my best every day for my husband. Whether he returns that love again or not, I will still behave lovingly toward him.

Thanks for any insight.

H2U

I am not sure what the answer is here... On one hand, if you continue to see him, and you fall further in love with him, you may get hurt even more. On the other hand, by spending time with him he may fall back in love with you...

If it were me, I would continue to spend time with him but do not pressure him about romance. It may happen, it may not but if you pressure him, it will drive him away.

Keith

Hi Keith, thanks for the reply.

I'm doing exactly as you suggested - spending the "quality time" but I'm not pushing. No hugs, kisses, no "just because" phone calls - nothing overt. Just enjoying spending the time with him and leaving the ball in his court.

He knows how I feel - I've told him. Now I'm not bringing it up anymore, rather I'm just carrying on with my life. Tonight a girlfriend and I went to Bingo, one of our children was at a slumber party and our other child is with H. Both children will be with H at his residence tomorrow night. So I'm enjoying a bit of 'me time'.

Yesterday we spent a wonderful Thanksgiving as a family. He came over in the late morning, we prepared a nice meal together, watched some movies with the children, and spent the late afternoon and early evening at a public aquarium that we'd all wanted to see.

It was easy, relaxed, FUN. The way it should be. Some customers of ours saw us at the aquarium and took our photos -several of them - and emailed them to me. I wasn't sure if I should email them to him or not - but I did. No accompanyting message, just, "these are the pictures that so-and-so took of us". The client wasn't even aware that we were separated (over a year now)... she posted a picture of us on a message board I frequent and captioned it with a comment about the happy family she saw there... I emailed her back and said, "obviously you don't know"... she was surprised - said we always look happy together at work. Go figure. We have always worked well together and never brought our issues to work.. guess we're better actors than we realized, in that regard!

We looked like a happy family. We WERE a happy family -- we ARE a happy family - when we're together. Perhaps I wondered if his seeing us from the outside (via the pictures) would paint a clearer picture for him? HE looked happy. I was happy - no doubt about that, but I can assure you he didn't look like somebody being dragged along. I extended the invitation, he accepted, and a good time was had by all.

He did something else that surprised me today. He went super-early in the morning to a Black Friday sale at a big department store. I knew he was going as he told me yesterday he intended to - this is not typical of him (he's a last-minute, don't-care-about-price shopper usually), but he saw a TV he wanted for his bedroom at his apartment, and they were offering one at a great price. I suggested that he go an hour early, pick the item he wanted and cruise the store with it til the price dropped. He didn't - but he got himself another TV at a good price (the one he wanted was sold out at 5...). That wasn't the surprise... he bought me a new printer/scanner/copier for our business. Now you might be thinking... for the business - don't read into it... however, I do ALL the admin work at our business. He almost never uses the printer, unless he has to print a map to a client's and I usually do that for him. Our current printer is old and slow. He told me he knew I didn't like that printer and he got me a new one. Just the fact that he even thought of such a thing flabbergasted me because he NEVER usually thinks of such things. I offered to reimburse him out of the business - he shrugged - he wasn't looking for that... he simply did it out of kindness and thoughtfulness. I was pleasantly surprised and thanked him - I really really appreciate that.

So, even if it was subconsiously, at 5:00 AM in a throng of people, he was thinking of me. I can't tell you (or him!) how much that impressed me. I didn't go over the top with thanks but I did thank him sincerely. For him to have done that was really significant. That kind of thing never would have happened before. Never. Did I mention I was impressed?(OK I'm gushing here... but I can!)

His girlfriend arrives in 8 days. Part of me is dreading it, but another part of me is saying, "Bring it on!" because the sooner she comes and goes, the sooner that much is over with, and I'll know better where I stand.

I'm sure she wouldn't be pleased if she saw the pictures that our client took of us... I'd bet she doesn't know that he spent the day with us. He may have told her he was with the children, but I doubt that he told her he spent the whole day with me too.

We really had a great time, and I'm very thankful to God for that. Despite whatever the future holds for me and my family, we were all together for that day and we all enjoyed being together. I dressed up a bit - nice slacks and a sweater (I'm jeans and t-shirt most days as my work is physical and somewhat dirty), and he arrived in dress pants and a nice sweater and dress shoes - his office is casual so he usually is dressed down too. We looked rather handsome together and I felt proud to have my whole family around me and it showed on my face in the pictures. What else can I say - it felt really good.

Tonight was our regular Friday night family dinner at our favourite restaurant. One child was away so it was 3 of us, and our friend/neighbour arrived alone at the same time as we did, so he joined us. Typical Friday night, our friend told us some funny stories about his trip that he's just returned from, and when it was over, H left with our son for the night and I went on to Bingo with my friend (nope, didn't win but $20 well spent on a fun night with a good friend!). Now I'm just collecting my thoughts for the night and we'll be back at work together tomorrow.

NO I'm not pressing him for more - if that is to happen, it will be at his initiating, not mine. So for now I'm enjoying it for what it's worth.

While to a large extent it's still "mixed signals", I feel like whether he knows it or not, he's sending me some pretty strong signals. Besides, if it is to happen for us again, I think slowly is good. If at some point he realizes how he's been feeling and comes to me about it, then we'll talk about how to move forward from there, but that won't be until it's over with the girlfriend. For now there's a big boundary that I'm not willing to cross.

H2U

Honey2U,

I think you are using the right approach - not pressuring him. I can give you some advice (since I am a guy!) and I know what would get him interested:

- Show a side of yourself that he has never seen. Perhaps a new hobby that would make him wonder what is up with you??? Maybe take an art class, karate class, music lessons, etc...

- Show him some mystery about you. Guys feed off of that stuff! The more we can't figure out about women, the more we want them!

- Buy new clothes, get a new hair style, make yourself look a different then he is used to.

- I know you are worried about the girlfriend coming but don't show him that. Don't even bring it up... Act like it doesn't bother you. He will notice the confidence in you about yourself.


I really hope you get him back...

Keith

Uncanny - Keith... I'm doing many of the things you have suggested already! I am really appreciating your input here - it's easy to talk with my Mother or girlfriend(s) about stuff, but we only see it from a woman's point of view. I talk with my neighbour (mentioned below) about stuff, but he's not what I'd consider a "typical" man. He's straight and all, but he thinks more like a woman than most men I know. That isn't an insult either - just surprising <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A week ago, I went to the hair salon. Haven't been to one in about 7 years! I have long hair and I have trimmed it myself (partly out of frugality, partly because I'm afraid to have my hair screwed up!) I got brave and got a trim - nothing drastic - but I have nice hair (if I do say so myself) and it needed some shaping and tidying and the stylist showed me how to fix it nicely with a minimum of fuss. H didn't notice it (he noticed a kid/customer's haircut the same day!) but my delivery driver who delivers my freight every week did! A lady customer noticed today - couldn't pinpoint what was "different" (new glasses?!).. I like how it looks and I'm sure that shows in my carriage.

I've also started wearing makeup again. Not a lot - just a bit around the eyes - I have nice eyes, and a little this and that to accentuate my eyes. I don't like to look "made up" but a bit of subtle colour to make me look a bit better and take the pale out of my face - again I feel good wearing it so it reflects in the way I carry myself. It's probably a bit more about attitude than it is about cosmetics - but as long as the desired effect is achieved what the heck!

I changed my shoes. Sounds stupid - but I always wore tennis shoes with jeans. My girlfriend took one look at my sneakers and said, "Oh, those have to go!" I started wearing slip-on shoes with my nicer jeans -not exactly dressing up, but makes the jeans look a bit less, umm "jeanny" and a nice sweater with my company issue polo shirt. Next time I have a few extra dollars and have the time to shop I might see if I can find a nice pair of walking/work shoes that can withstand the torture I put them through at work but don't look quite so utilitarian. I had a pair once but I wore them out, and haven't been able to find another good pair - but perhaps I may have to drag myself out to a store to find some in earnest.

You may have guessed - I'm a bit of a tomboy. I'm not masculine looking in the least but my work is pretty physical and a bit dirty so a dress and heels just wouldn't work. I carry a few extra pounds, but in the last 6 years I've lost about 60 lbs. and kept it off (in fact lately I've lost about 15 that I had regained due to some medication, and I'm trying to lose a few more), and I always dress appropriately for my shape and size. I'm very feminine but I can and am making myself look a little less like one of the guys, and a bit more like a lady <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've always cleaned up pretty nicely when I have occasion to, in fact I have a dress that I'm sure would knock H's socks off if only I had a reason to wear it in his presence... but I digress... got to keep that one under my hat just in case I do have a reason to show him how good it looks!

So hair, makeup - changing my look just a bit, nothing too drastic but enough to make some folks take notice.

I went to bingo with my girlfriend last night, and I think we're going to make it a weekly date, or biweekly. I used to do this years ago, but stopped when I moved here. $20 for a night out, for ME. This isn't a new activity for me, but something I haven't done in over 5 years.

Tonight, after we closed the shop, H went home to his apartment, our children are with him for the weekend, so my neighbour and I went and grabbed a bite to eat (this is the same neighbour who joined us Friday for family dinner). He's like a big brother to me - he took in H when I asked him to leave, and put him up for 6 months - we've been friends to each other through our mutual separations and his divorce - there's not even a hint of anything romantic between us - never could be - like I said, he's more like a brother - but he and I grabbed a bite, went to the store for some groceries, listened to tunes on the way there and back and he dropped me off a little while ago. I had fun, got out for a while and just relaxed a bit.

I have done all of the above things, for ME. I did not do them for H, or for anyone else. I think it's important that I stress this point - I'm not trying to win a contest, I'm trying to help myself feel better, and boost my own self-esteem - and it's working! (IF somebody else takes notice, that's great. If not, I still feel and look better!)

Part of *my* problem in the marriage was that I perceived activities apart as a threat. I've since learned that we each need to do our own thing, so I'm doing my thing, and acting accordingly. I suppose trust was an issue at times - that's a long story - but healthy, wholesome activities each to his/her own are a must, so I've come to understand. Like I said before I owned my share of woe in the marriage, but I've learned a lot by my own mistakes, and I'm still learning. Moving forward... not backward...

Mystery, huh? I'm not sure how to manage that one. I'm a pretty straightforward person - what you see is what you get, and while I'm a bit long-winded (!!) I'm not one to mince words. Not sure how to inject a bit of mystery into the situation but I'll certainly ponder that and see what I can come up with that fits into who I am. Does a little bit of playing hard to get count? Wait - I have to get to the point where he's pursuing me first, I suppose, so best not to put the cart before the horse.

After 21 years with somebody (20 of those living together) there isn't much about me that he doesn't know. There isn't much about him that I don't know - but then again he's been surprising me lately with little things. I've tried to respond in kind but doing little things here and there for him - again nothing huge, just little acts of kindness throughout the day when we're working together. I must give him credit for being nice first... but it inspired me to do the same, and so it goes - positive energy begets positive energy. Beats the heck out of being angry all the time.

I have not mentioned the girlfriend at all. Neither has he, since he told me a week ago about her impending visit. He wasn't one to rub it in my face, but occasionally her name would come up in passing. For simplicity, I'll call the girlfriend, "Sue"... Sue's best friend's daughter was injured a few weeks ago in a freak accident, and he told me about that, and out of compassionate concern I have asked him a couple of times (although not in the past week), if he'd heard any update on her condition. However, in the past week since he told me about Sue's coming, neither of us has brought up her name. I'm just not going to go there - all it would do is make me look bad, so I'm not going to do it.

As for confidence - well Sue's going to be on MY turf - I have nothing to back down about. I also have nothing to lose - my divorce is scheduled to take place the very week she's there. There's no need for me to be adversarial, insecure or indifferent. Like I said, I'll be polite and gracious, and conduct myself as I would normally. Something tells me he will minimize the contact between us, and that's fine but I am sure our paths will cross, and I'm ready. If anyone has cause to be insecure, it's Sue.

I'm preparing myself emotionally for her visit. I will be gracious, I'll be myself. I don't feel like I'm "competing" with her - honestly, at the risk of sounding stuck-up, I really don't think she's any real competition for me, and I'm not out to prove anything. H has already made it clear that our business and family are priority (customer appointments, DD's concert one night during that visit)... so in his way, he's already telling me he doesn't respect this woman very much, without actually saying it. I figure Sue will see this firsthand too, and let the chips fall where they may. I don't feel a want or need to "do" anything other than conduct myself in a business-as-usual manner. Perhaps that will surprise H a bit because I get the impression (or perhaps I've given him the impression) that he thinks I'm going to fall to pieces when she gets here. Not going to happen. (And if it does, it will be behind my own closed doors, where nobody can see it.)

I do want my husband back - but ONLY if he comes to me for the right reasons, and we're both ready and willng to give our best effort to the relationship. That much will be a long journey to sort out, if it happens. Regardless of the outcome of all this, my feelings for him are what they are. I know that everything in this life happens for a reason, and I'm praying for guidance through this phase of my life's journey. In the end, I'll be where ever I'm meant to be, and I seek solace in that.

Sometimes I surprise myself... I find it very therapeutic to put my thoughts into words .. and after reading my rantings of a couple of years ago, to the present, I really feel like I've grown a lot (and still have a lot of growing to do). Perhaps I had to go through all that I've been through, in order to find peace at this point.

H2U

Honey2U,

I am glad you said you are making the changes for you because that is a win-win situation. You will feel better about who you are and your husband will notice the changes. I know you said your husband probably knows everything about you but by changing, he will see things that he never new existed and it will catch his interest.

I can't stress how much guys can get drawn to woman that can't figure out! It is almost like a challenge to us, not to conquer them or anything but like we need to get to know them, and what makes them tick. Make him wonder about your changes and what makes YOU tick!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep us posted in the coming days with the other woman coming back and all. I will help in anyway I can.

Keith

Hmmm.. lots to think about. And I tend to overthink things, which has its good and bad points.

I think his bringing her here, especially now, could almost be partly a "revenge factor" for him, toward me, as much as the warm fuzzy feeling he's getting from her now because he's in a new relationship. We all know that those warm fuzzies wear off eventually and reality sets in - that is how I learned where my heart truly lies. I can only hope and pray that he realizes this too, but I have to keep in mind that it may not. Still, my gut tells me that there is more fantasy than reality to his relationship with "Sue". I hope it's not just wishful thinking on my part, but I can't help but think that if he was really over our marriage, he wouldn't want to spend any more time around me than was absolutely necessary. It sure didn't feel or look like he was just killing time on Thanksgiving. He certainly wouldn't be going out of his way to be kind to me - but yet he has been.

We had a power failure at our business ysterday morning and it caused a mechanical problem - one that's been needing fixing for over a year. He spent most of the day yesterday performing the necessary repair. Again, I'm seeing him as more motivated around our business together, whereas for a long time he'd arrive late, leave early and do as little as possible while he was there - often to the detriment of our clients. I've seen a huge change in that - and I'm grateful and I've told him that. It's helping my own 'motivation factor' too, as I don't feel like I'm the only one carrying the burdon of running the business. He's not dragging me down anymore.

I looked at Sue's website again today (I know - kind of self-torture, but the old addage, "Keep your friends close, and enemies closer" comes to mind)... her newest male friend (she's got many many male friends) posted a note to her last night that he hopes she has a good time visiting her new friend and "maybe it will turn into a wedding hey?"

That one set me back on my heels a bit.

I've never seen a note posted from H on her site...but she posts on his. It's one of those "networking" websites - not necessarily a pickup website, but some use it for that. Everybody has a page and they can post notes publically to one another - so that note is there for the whole world to see.

Our divorce isn't even final yet - won't be until midway into her visit - I realize she didn't say that, her friend did, but those are pretty strong words. Maybe H will see that and have a similar reaction? That sounds like some pressure to me. I don't know Sue or what her intentions are. I only know what H has told me, and unless he's feeding me a line, I don't think that's in his plans anytime soon. In a way I feel sorry for Sue - I don't think she sees the entire picture. As a woman I wouldn't be too comfy with a boyfriend being so involved with his ex... but hey, that's just me. She seems to have a lot of male friends - perhaps she's trying to keep H on his toes because there seems to be a lot of fellows out there vying for her attention. She appears to keep the rest of them at arm's length but I'd bet there'd be a queue up to take his place if he were suddenly out of the picture.

I keep telling myself that all things happen for a reason. She's coming here and I can't do anything about that, but perhaps it will be a turning point - either one or both of them will realize that it's a dead end, OR I'll see with my own eyes that I don't have a future with my husband. I suppose I need to know one way or another, right?

I'm really afraid that he's going to get hurt - but as he and I discussed - he left me alone to make my mistakes, he's going to have to make his. He's a grown man and responsible for his own choices. I just know how vulnerable he has been.. but again, it's not something I can do anything about, except stay on my own course and keep showing him in my little way, that I still love him.

December's going to be a tough month - her visit, the divorce, Christmas... I want to invite him for Christmas, but I think I need to wait until she leaves to see where I stand with him at that point. I won't be a doormat - if I see that she's really what he wants and needs, then I need to leave him alone to get on with it, and accept that it's over. If it should end between them, I'll need to give him time and space to figure out what he wants... it's all going to be a slow process.

One thing I will say - with my husband or without him, I'm going to make 2006 MY year. I've been through a lot of grief in the last few years, and I've decided that I'm not going to be dragged down any longer. Bring it on!

Meanwhile I'm just going to carry on - it's all I can do.

H2U

One more question...

Is it possible to inspire that butterflies/new relationship feeling in him again, but towards me?

I realize we can't erase 21 years of history - but it would be fun to try to make things new again. I'm making changes - positive ones.

Or are the suggestions you've already made, designed to get his motor running in my direction again?

H2U

Actually, the suggestions I made are more for YOU then him. But, he will notice the changes, I guarentee it. Will the changes get him back??? I don't know....

It is going to be tough but don't act too concerned about the girlfriend coming back. You are heading for a divorce, the girlfriend is coming and this is a very pivotal time.... You can't change him at all, he will do what he wants to.

I wish you well, all of this is so difficult and causes so much anxiety but in the end, it will work out. I tried and tried to make my marraige work and no matter what I did, it was doomed from the day I said "I do".

Keith

Heh funny I've been reading many threads on this board since I got home tonight, and just as I refreshed I saw you'd posted.

H seemed a bit distant today but he wasn't feeling well. Middle of the work day he had to go see a client and I suggested him to just go home if he wasn't up to working, once he was done - and he did.

He brought our son back about 6, and he came in to collect some Thanksgiving leftovers that I offered him. I offered to fix him some soup but he declined. He didn't stay long - that's fine, he really looked unwell. Hopefully he got an early night as he has to work early in the morning. Often times he's up late at night chatting with OW or whatever and I know it catches up with him - but I don't say anything beyond asking him if he's OK - that's his business not mine. I'm concerned about his health but I'm not smothering him.

Yes, the changes I am making are for me. Like I said - if somebody else takes notice, that's great but I like the changes I've made and I feel better. I've found I can boost my own sagging spirits by taking a bit of time to pamper myself - so that's a plus in my column. That's what's important. If he's noticed he hasn't said - but then he's got other irons in the fire right now.

I do wonder if he's even pondering "us" at all... I can't help but think once I laid out my feelings it had to give him something to think about, but at the same time he seems pretty focussed on "Sue", or perhaps focussed on Sue focussing on him (!) so perhaps he's just shoved it all aside? I can't do that... but maybe he can. I don't know. I'd like to think that reconciliation is at least being processed somehow by him.

I find myself wondering if he has spent any time creating a plus/minus column for each relationship... with OW he'd have to move her and her kids out here, set up housekeeping, help her find a job... lots of things to overcome to make it happen, and financially he's not set up to do that and I get the impression she isn't either. Would he be able to love her children? Would our children react favourably to sharing their father? Would her children take to another man in their mother's life? All these "reality check" things that the practical me would consider before even entering such a relationship in the first place. I don't know if he's given any of that much thought but when we had our talk recently he didn't indicate that he'd put much thought into that. I think the instant gratification of someone paying attention to him was first and foremost in his mind.

Now he's got 2 women vying for his attention - Sue and myself - although I'm not actively pursuing him it's enough that he knows I'd like to try again.

Then I think - he could potentially, down the road, restore his marriage, get his home back, some financial relief, have his children under the same roof with him all the time...

*Logically* he'd be better off trying to work things out with me .. but we all know the heart is seldom logical.

Then on the other hand, I don't want him to come back if he's only considering the peripheral stuff... don't come back for the convenience, money, etc. Needs to be for the right reasons if it's to happen at all.

This is where I beat myself up wondering what he's thinking and I hate it when I do this to myself.

My emotions are all over the map right now. I'm playing my best poker face with H, not saying a word about any of it but at times I feel like I can take on the world and win and at others I feel like it's the end of the world - like the minute she steps off that plane any hope I have with H is out the window.

I realize I'm on a roller coaster, so I'm just keeping it to myself, or confiding in those I trust and not taking my issues to H. That would be destructive right now and I've worked too hard to improve things, to screw them up now. I guess a lack of patience is my worst enemy right now, so I keep having to talk myself down out of my tree, as it were.

No I can't change him - I learned that a long time ago in MC. And for many years he sat in a rut. I did too to some extent but I did try to change at the time, and my small successes were no match for his depression and other issues.

Like I said, I've seen many positive changes in him in the last several weeks and that is what turned my heart back to him. He did this himself - for himself, and I'm glad for him because this is what everyone could see he needed - he just had to figure it out for himself. Now I'm doing the same - my issues and struggles are very different from his, but the solutions are the same - changes.

I'm really struggling tonight with "Letting go and letting God"... perhaps after a good night's sleep things will seem more positive in the morning. The shop is closed tomorrow as it is each Monday so it's unlikely that I'll see him or speak with him unless I've got a business issue. I do go in to work but it's mostly admin stuff - my department. Perhaps that little break from each other will help me too.

I'm rambling now.... anyobody care to help talk me down out of my tree?

H2U

H2U,

I am just leaving for work but will post more tonight. Hang in there!

Keith

I took a bold step today.

I admitted to myself that I am NOT emotionally ready for this divorce. I called my attorney to ask some questions (H has not taken state-mandated parenting seminar and I wondered what the reprocussions would be) and I told the attorney I was having second thoughts.

Attorney told me that since I'm the plaintiff, I had control of whether to proceed, postpone or withdraw my petition.

I emailed H asking him if we could talk about the D, and would he prefer email or in person. He said email was fine but then I replied that perhaps in person was better. I told him I was struggling and not emotionally ready but would prefer to discuss in person.

He replied saying that he was really busy at the moment...(at work) however if I wanted to postpone, it was ok with him -- but he also said not to get my hopes up because he was not ready to get back together and unsure if he would ever be ready.

Fair enough - at least he didn't demand that I just go ahead with it, so I'm going to look at that as a postive.

I wrote down all my feelings - all the things I've either said before, or wanted to say but forgot when faced with actually saying them.

He arrived, I began my talk by telling him I wasn't trying to play games, or emotional blackmail, I wasn't trying to be mean or hurtful - but rather I have these feelings that need to come out. I told him I had notes that I wanted to use so I'd get all the things out that I needed to say.

He acknowledged that, and let me proceed...

We went into our (closed) shop and sat down... I got it all off my chest, he listened. I didn't press him for answers - he did say that waiting on the divoce was fine with him if it was better for me - but I asked him what *he* wanted. He said he wasn't even sure either if he wanted it (good!) so it was OK to wait.

So I'll call the attorney tomorrow to postpone.

I told him I never really wanted the divorce, that I wanted him to get well again.

I asked him just to think about what I'd said, and when he had something to tell me to please be honest with me - not to try not to hurt me, because nothing hurts more than right now. He said he would think about it all.

I offered to go to his therapist with him - he doesn't see her regularly but he has seen her and he likes her.

I also said that I felt we owed it to ourselves and our family to at least *try* once more. We haven't since he left, and we'd never know for sure unless we tried - he nodded at that ... he acknowledged that I had a valid point. I told him I couldn't promise him perfection but from my end I could promise him that things would be better.

I also brought to his attention that lately when we talk, he doesn't just dismiss my feelings - he listens and hears, and doesn't just blow me off - and he said he didn't even notice that he'd changed that about himself. I told him I've noticed.

I have a cautious good feeling about this - it needed to be done. The ball is in his court now but I do think that just maybe I got through to him this time.

He did say that he's been thinking about things more since I first put it out there.... a little bit. This time I asked him to give it the thought and consideration that it really deserves. He said he would.

I'm feeling better now that I have it all off my chest. Now I just need to wait and see.

H2U

Good for you... If you are not ready for the divorce, postpone it.

I can feel what you are going through and I know this is tough but you have to stay strong on this.

Patience for me right now is the hard part... now that I've "seen the light" I want him to do the same - but clearly we don't always work on the same timetable.

I said what I needed to say. He said he'd consider it. From the look on his face and his expressions (nodding in acknowledgement, etc.) I know that he really heard what I was saying and didn't dismiss it.

I really don't expect any forward movement until OW comes and goes. Hopefully at that point he'll make a decision - or she will. Once the third party is out of the picture (and I'm sure that will happen sooner or later), then he can really be with himself and figure out what he really wants. Waiting for that other shoe to drop isn't going to be easy. I'm afraid that the longer it goes on with OW, the harder time he'll have detaching. Then I think to myself - she's here for one week. She lives on the other side of the country. He's known her for 4 months. I, on the other hand, am here, all the time. He sees me almost daily. We've known each other 21 years. We have children and a home... there are lots of reasons why he should think carefully about his choice - but he's probably not seeing it that logically right now. That lust-buzz can really cloud one's judgement. I just need to have faith that God will work on his heart - just as He did on mine. If I can do an emotional 180, anything is possible.

Meanwhile I'm just going to keep on doing what I have been doing - trying to refill the Love Bank, and keep on praying for peace, patience and guidance from God, to help me do the right thing.

Part of me wants to move forward a bit - email him "just because" or whatever, but I don't want to push. I don't want to stand by and seemingly do nothing either. It's a bit hard to figure out what's appropriate right now. On one hand I want to stay on the "front burner" and keep showing him that I meant what I said...but part of me feels that I need to give him his time and space, and if and when he's ready, he'll come to me. He tends to be one that lets others be the "doers". I guess I'm just going to have to play it by ear on this one.

H2U

Well now I'm SURE his girlfriend is a predator.

About 10 days ago, at our shop he asked me for an envelope. I gave him one and asked him what it was for (my wheels were already turning - I knew what it was for). He said something about sending a check to the cable company (the bill comes with an envelope...) so I offered to drop it off for him at the company offices here in town.

He never brought me a check - I asked him about it and he'd said something about paying online.

I still have access to his bank account - we have a joint account still (no money in it) but when I log into it I can see his account too.

The next business day he used his debit card to send something express mail. Today I checked the account (yes he does know I have access - in fact I had his permission to transfer some funds today), and I see a check cleared for over $500. I clicked on it and I can see that it was paid to a third party (not the g/f) but the memo line says "Rent".

He paid her rent.

I knew this would happen. I knew when he asked me for an envelope that he was sending her money.

I'm livid... and disappointed that he'd be that stupid. He used to joke that on all the dating websites were women asking for money. Well it took 4 months but she got money out of him.

He got a cash-out of his 401K - that's the only way he can afford to do this - I know because I deposited the check for him from that. He's supposed to pay his back-taxes and overdue credit card with that money and save the rest -- well CC is not paid and taxes are not paid... but her rent is paid.

What is with these women? They hang out on dating websites, pick a nice ripe vulnerable man who is newly separated or divorced and suck him right into their web.

My guess is when the gravy train is over, she'll be gone and his wallet will be a bit lighter.

My heart breaks for him - but he's not very clever if he fell for that. I'm sure she made it "his" idea to help her out - or that it's a "loan"... but I know well enough to know that was a "gift".

I can't understand how he could do that - he's been late with support and I've worked with him - he's caught up now but that money was supposed to be reinvested after he paid his bills.

I did borrow some of that money for our business - it's a loan to the company and will be repaid to him - but I almost feel like I need to protect that money to save him from himself.

I can't believe he is that stupid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But at least now my suspcions about her are confirmed. She's a predator.

I won't say anything to him about the check - although it's going to be hard not to... it is his money to pee away as he pleases... but while I've been juggling finances to make ends meet both in the business and my household, it kind of stings to see him take care of her before himself.

I wonder who paid her rent last month? It wasn't him - he can't afford it. If not for the 401K cash-out he wouldn't have any money right now at all.

I wonder if she's working several men at once, or does she screw them one at a time?

I feel sorry for H, but that was a pretty dumb thing to do. Hope he wakes up soon...

H2U

i know how you feel. my h and i are going through the same thing sorta. minus the girlfrined and he still lives with me and our two children. he says he is moving out after christmas, but i hope he doesn't. he does have a "friend" at work that i found out he hangs out with. but he swears they are "just friends". i hope this is the case. anyway, sounds like we are in the same boat. i'm trying not to push my h. but sometimes it's very hard not to do.

I think sometimes a push is needed. I pushed him out of the house because it was the only way I could see for him to get the help he needed. It has taken him over a year to show positive changes - minus the g/f, and he had to lose it all and bottom out before he started to get it together... it killed me inside but I think it was necessary - 19 years of "trying" (oops enabling) didn't work.

Hopefully if he gets a clue about g/f and dumps her, he can take some time to get his head together and decide what he really wants. Even if it's not with me - he doesn't need some money-grubbing XXXXX.

Mixed emotions about all that - on one hand I'm sad he's being suckered, but on the other hand, he should have seen it coming and he's getting what he deserves, even if he doesn't realize it fully yet. I think in the back of his mind he knows he's being taken but he can't think straight enough yet to fix it. Once she's here and sees how he lives and how little he really has, she'll probably move on to another victim and leave him with me to pick up the pieces.

This event has been a huge love-buster but I'm going to just try to consider it all in the big picture and focus on making things better anyway. We have all made mistakes - I have. He didn't say "I told you so" when I made mine, so I won't either. The knowledge that the mistake was made is usually punishment enough.

H2U

Well I realized yesterday that he still has at least two major character flaws:

1) He still lies (about why he wanted the envelope).
2) He's still irresponsible (paying for g/f stuff before his own).

I know I can't live with those, but am I compeletey naive to think those flaws can ever be changed? I'm not seeing change there - so perhaps those things cannot be changed? (Clearly he doesn't want to change them - at least not yet).

H2U

Well I got my head out of my behind overnight.

I have decided to proceed with D. I just emailed H to inform him that next Wednesday is the day. I emphasized that I still love him and if he ever wants to work things out I will try to keep my heart open to him but in light of his irresponsibility and deceit I have to protect myself and my children.

I did not mention the g/f rent. I did mention his credit card and back taxes which remain unpaid.

I talked to my attorney about getting the court to collect support. I'm on my own for him to pay the mortgage (per the agreement he signed) and if he doesn't I'll have to haul him back into court. Attorney said that a judge doesn't think much of men who pay g/f rent (I did tell my attorney) and not the payment on the house his kids are in.

This isn't about love or anger or any emotion. It's about taking control of my situation.

I went into business issues too - some pretty serious ones...he's going to have to pick his head out of the sand too.

I'm sad, but feel a bit more empowered. I'm taking control of the financial side. I don't know if it will wake him up or not - likely not as nothing else has - but at least I'm doing what I must to protect my family.

H2U

I know how you are feeling. After my H left, here I was practically starving. My home was going into foreclosure; our daughter cashed in her 401(K) to pay the taxes. My car was being repossessed; my boss made a payment for me when the towtruck showed up at my work. I was borrowing from everybody I know and even some I didnt! LOL But yet, he could buy "her" a new car, he could go to the casinos with her 3-4 times a week, he could go on vacations and buy her and her children gifts. He even paid her daughters college tuition when our daughter had to quit school and move back home to help me out.

At the time I never thought I would make it through all this but I did. Looking back I still dont know how.

So now I am back to feeling the same way as the day he left. Since we talked last weekend, he has called twice. Everyday I am hoping today will be the day he comes back. Today he will be waiting for me when I get home from work. And then when it doesnt happen, I am feeling like its not worth it. Why bother? Is there just too much damage done after 3 years?

I dont know...I am just so confused!