eav.....thanks...you got courage! I did walk up and down his street one night...for some reason I had this notion that he would not recongnize me.....anyway, it was all silly and really what was the point of it.....I feel much better now knowing that there is no use in it at all.....I can get my dignity back by backing off and living my life....

Hope your day is going well......that house of yours is really getting a real make over! I am impressed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

well daisy...

it was a real eye opener for me

that was the night i discovered that OW was living with my H...i saw one of her children in my H bed sleeping

the next day is when i called OWH

i really didn't expose since he kinda noticed his wife had moved out...he ended up telling me things i didn't know

turns out he know about them before my H left here and he had driven to my house a few times and sat out front...

i wish he had told me...there was so much more of a possibility of saving both our marriages before either one had moved out

i haven't been back there since...i don't want to see anything else

but i had to know the truth and i had to see it for myself to really believe it

(and we all do carzy things when we are hurting... the OWH beat my H up with a baseball bat and smashed out the windows in our trcuk the first time he caught them together after OW told him it was over between them)

Jennifer told me that knowing any more would cause mw too much pain...that we can only take so much before our love for our H's fades away and can't be restored

her fear is that my love will be gone and THEN my h will want to come back....she says this happens alot

that's most likely why Steve told you to stop

A WH will have huge problems with being snooped on. It's part of the script.

A FWH will be HAPPY to do anything at all necessary to help you feel safer and regain your trust.

Start thinking in terms of allowing him greater access to your life, as well. In recovery, the BS will not feel safe without being able to see for themselves that there is NC, and what is fair for one spouse is fair for the other. Your H probably would not feel the need to look in your email, but he should be able to know that you would let him.

My .02

eav....

I am sorry...we all look back and wish we could change the past...do something differently.....I know what you mean about seeing it for yourself to really believe it....I still hold out the hope that H has not been involved with someone since I did not SEE it with my own eyes...

not_so_you_neak,
I am really struggeling with that part...yes it does make sense to me that a WS needs to understand the BS reasoning for snooping if they are in recovery and does need to forgive and make his/her life an open book.....the thing I struggle with is that I do not know if my H is a WH. That is all.....he may very well be a man that left his wife because his needs were not met (b/c his wife was not aware of them....and wishes she was) and decided not to be unhappy for even one more day. Is that a WS? That is what I struggle with. I don't think he is a WS....yes, at first he was quite angry with me for wanting him back and we had that pull-push relationship, but now I really feel that he just wants to be happy and does not believe we can be so is taking the steps necessary to have a happy life someday.....

But, I don't know....and I just wonder about all this WS stuff when I have no proof of an A.

Daisy

After seeing Walk the Line last night and reading HN/HN and reading Lem's thread on admiration, etc...I have come full circle to looking at myself again....was I there for my H? Did I admire what he was doing? No, I tried to be there, but I see now just how much more I could have been there for him. The movie Walk the Line just made me identify with his first wife (I am not saying she was a terrible person, to me she actually came of as the better woman and he certainly was no saint)....I just observe her behavior alone and I could identify with her...yes, I too felt that my H was not there for me and that while he "played" I was taking care of everything.....etc....but still, does that mean my H did not deserve to have his W's support and admiration for what he was doing that was good.........

Then yesterday, when I talked to him in the morning when he called to check up on me...he again said something that later as I watched the movie I realized was just such a big complement he made to me and showed me just how much irrispective of everything else he admires me......and it just made me cry as I set there at the movies and then in the car as I drove home....so I ended up getting home and calling him and leaving him a message telling him something that was from my heart and that I could not wait another minute to share with him.......and was probably the most sentimental thing I ever said to him...(or at least very close).....

Sadly though, he just called me and apperantly he had gotten home but was drunk and the message did not register to him and given his state forgot to save it and now it is gone....but he hoped that I would call him and leave the exact message as he believe I was saying something nice and wants to hear it again.....

I actually laughed when I heard him because I said everything in the moment and I don't know if it makes sense to go on repeat mode but I guess I'll call again.....

Daisy

Hi Daisy~

I too, saw the movie, and liked it. Didn't know much about
Johnny Cash, other than just some of his songs, and have to
say he really had quite a tough early life. I didn't think
the movie glamorized the relationship with June-and I didn't
think it made the 1st wife look bad either- can imagine how
she must have felt and how difficult it would be, with her being home alone, handling everything, while her husband
was out on the road.

I understand what you mean about thinking what part we have
played in a failing marriage, and wondering what or how we
could have done things differently.
I think my WH definitely has a big need for admiration, and in thinking about it, I don't think I provided enough. I
have always been proud of WH, and always tried to show this,
but didn't "over do" it. Thinking about it now though, I
realize that WH grew up with a mother who really doted on
everything he ever did, and still does, so maybe he really
needed more than I considered necessary.
I also think that one of WH's big needs was physical
attractiveness. I have some issues with this (as are brought
up in the book) because I feel like someone that loves you
should love you for YOU, not based on how you look, whether
or not you gain a couple pounds, have graying hair, dress
like a model, etc, but I can understand the way Harley
describes it, and I think that WH does have issues with me
on this just from little comments he's made. I know that
I have gained some weight since we met (so has WH) and I
don't go to the gym too often, mostly because I'm busy with
work, the house, hate to leave the dog alone, etc. but this
just seems so petty. Guess I need to re-read that section !

Other than that, I don't know what WH would pick as his main
needs. He could have had all the SF he needed at home, and
elected to look elsewhere. He had emotional support, as I
was a very supportive and caring wife. He had domestic
support, as I did almost everything at home, plus worked.
He had financial support, as I worked and all my income
went into our joint "pot". Perhaps this is where people with
emotional/mental issues or addictions, such as our spouses
"break" from the pattern and philosphy of MB- we WERE
providing their needs, and their issues became the reason
for them to stray off and quit working on the marriage-

Sorry that your WS missed hearing your nice message-
maybe you can still get the idea and thought across to him.
Glad he is showing concern about your health too. I hope you
are okay ?

My WH called me Sat morning, (usually don't hear from him on Sat.,I assume he spends Fri overnight at OW), then called
again later in the day. Seemed friendly, positive, and I
started to say.. maybe we could take things slow, work on
things? but cut myself off, and didn't finish saying it.
He called back and asked what I was going to say, so I told
him, and he said "maybe we could", which was the most positive thing he's said in a long time. I felt good about
it and hopeful..but then, yesterday he called and asked me
to meet him for lunch at a sports bar. (our team was playing
also). He was 30 min.late (no explanation) and in a horrible
mood- very grouchy and negative. Tried to talk, and just got
"attitude", with him telling me the whole story about how
he is unhappy, it must be me/the marriage, he has never
thought we had fun, doesn't think we have anything in common, doesn't think his depression or the A has anything to do with our situation, that counseling isn't going to
make any difference, etc....
I felt really stunned- like a slap in the face, after his
much different attitude and mood of just a day prior-
Don't know what, but seemed like something must have happened with him and OW, or something !!?
He called me several more times last night- still seemed
very angry, defensive, blaming, re-writing our past, acting
like nothing has ever mattered to him- just don't know what
brought it on, and I'm really confused and hurt today.

Decided to go back to the mode of not calling him, not
talking any about R/M, not being as available to do things,
etc. Seems like he is wanting to call/see me in order to
decide what he wants to do, but after all the time this has
been going on, don't see how he's ever going to come to a
clear decision, especially if he still won't get help.

I'm trying to hang in there, but it's sure hard. Decided I
would go ahead and decorate and try to enjoy the holidays
as much as I can, but I'm sure missing H and the things
we used to do, shopping for his family, special foods we'd
have, and all the sentimental stuff..

Hang in there too=
Slammed

Hey there slammed....

Well, I think a lot of the admiration stuff goes back to the way we grew up.....I did not get much in admiration from my family.....while H always did.....my family is very practical.....their phylosophy actually is don't show you love a person <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />????? I am much better then them, but still probably not enough......In my family's eyes I did too much for H and showed him too much how much I love him......my H always thought that was total BS, his family is very much into admiration etc....so I think I probably provided too little ~ not too much.....

I did have an issue with support and that is why the movie hit me so hard. I set there and I was silently telling her, you are not supportive enough.....just cause that resonated with me a lot. (Again I think Cash's wife tried the best she could! and did not deserve to be treated that way!)......I know I could have supported H much more. I was so obssesed with our future and how we were going to make it, that I forgot about the present and now H is gone and all my planning for the future was just rediculous now.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There is a difference b/w your H and mine in that H is not yelling at me or blaming me in any way now......That in some sense has become really scary for me because it feels like he has accepted that we are just not meant to be, we are over, and no point in doing any yelling, analyzing, questions, discussing, etc......we are over! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well, I did end up calling him when I was ready again.....said basically the same thing. I still meant it and it was from the heart. I have not heard from him again. I guess he was probably off drinking last night as he is not working today (works Sun instead).....and every Sun. seems to turn into a drinking out night.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />....

I still don't know what is going on with my health.....I refuse to panic though.....I will check with the doctor tomorrow they should have my test results in by then. I felt really bad on Friday and I just was not up to driving so I wanted to know if H could possibly drive me to emergency if it gut much worse. I was in bad shape and it just kept getting worse but then it kind of leveled off and was just bad.....and it got a little better over the weekend...and there is really nothing they can do until they get the results....so I hope I find out tomorrow that it is nothing too serious.

Anyway, did not mean to get into all that stuff....

Hang in there slammed. I guess I have backed away from the Plan B idea.....I am afraid that would not work in my favor at all....I believe if anything we need to have contact and good contact for there to be any chance at all....I need to not push him but somehow get him to think about working on it.....I don't know what will happen.

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

well, I just spoke with H....he said nothing about my voice message...sounded hung over....I don't know how to feel about all this.......sometimes I think he is at a better place then me. I keep analyzing and he is living.....

I will see him in a couple of hours.....I guess if he brings it up, that is fine, if he does, oh well.....

Daisy

Sorry you are having a tough time too, Daisy-

I haven't gone into the Plan B either- just can't decide if
I think it will help any in our situation. I talked about it
with my IC last week, and although she isn't too familiar with the MB principles and theories, she did understand what it was about. Her feeling was that I should not give
WH anything that he will view as an "ultimatum", and that
his being totally "shut out" might just be a huge LB to him,
and add to his frustration and apparent anger.

I'm really wondering what happened to cause WH to show such
anger yesterday. I know that he has always been one who does
not say much, act bothered, or get mad when he was bothered
or upset by something- instead he "stores it up" until it
becomes a huge big deal and he explodes. One of the two
therapists he worked with briefly talked to him about this
and how unhealthy it is for him and a relationship, but he
still seems to do it. I can only assume he keeps this little
"storage" of things he didn't like , times he was hurt, or
other "points" to use in justifying his reason for the A,
or why he shouldn't be with me-
You'd think though, that after getting along better, no
arguing or fighting, seperation and the amount of time that
has passed, that he'd be "getting over" some of that- ????

I understand what you are saying about being supportive enough. I always thought I was being supportive, loving and
kind to H, and that he would recognize and realize it, but
he sure doesn't act like it made any difference to him.
I do wonder if I just wasn't supportive or loving in the
way he wanted or needed it, so it didn't register. Don't
know what I could have done differently though, unless I
just never disagreed with H, never voiced my opinions or
reasons, just went along with him on everything...

I spoke briefly to Wh this morning. I wanted to tell him
that a bill he was waiting for had arrived. Tried his cell
and it never went to voicemail, so I left a message at his
office for him to call when convenient. He called back, and
I let him know about the phone problem and the bill. I also
said I was sorry that yesterday didn't go very well, but
hoped things could get better- and he said "yeah, probably
so" or something like that. I also asked if he had decided
if he would like to come to my office party later this week.
(He had said he might want to go awhile back). He said he
didn't really think he'd want to go, so I said fine.
He seeemed in a hurry, so I just hung up after that-
I won't call him anymore today- back to just "laying low".

Feel kind of bad today, thinking he might have just been
having a bad day yesterday, and that things might have been
much better if I'd just let him "be", and not asked about
"us", wanted reassurances, talked about M, brought up the
OW, etc. Too late now, but I'm always second-guessing my
actions and things I say, wishing I had done something else !

Hope your WH will be responsive today and will acknowledge
your message-
Slammed

thanks slammed....

I did see H today. We saw a movie and had dinner. I feel really sad. I get this feeling like he is just fine....really just fine. If I disappear from his life it will be no loss. He thanked me for the message, said it was nice.

We talked during dinner...had a nice long talk afterwards. He was telling me about work. He always tells me how the people that he works with, most of them anyway, have nothing to say, to him they are just like the cool guys in HS. He does not relate. He says he always makes attemps at conversation but they really have nothing to say. I want to believe he enjoys talking to me.....I hope he thinks I have something to say. Conversation is his top need, I really always tried, but he does get critical and impatient with me very quick. I try hard not to let it get to me and these days it does not. I wonder if I am just a desperate woman willing to overlook everything.

Anyway, we chatted for a while. Then I was driving him home. He asked me if I could give him a ride to the pharmacy to renew his meds. It is 20 below and he does not have a car now. He needed to go home first to get the container...turns out the pharmacy at school where he gets his prescription filled is closed and they have it on file there.....so he hoped he could get it filled somewhere else, but it does not work like that....it is his evening pill and he really needs those to sleep. He was telling me how his body just shuts down if he does not get enough sleep. Sure, it makes me wonder how he can just let his prescription run out like that before taking care of it. But I guess thinking like that is an LB. See, this is what I would have mentioned when we were together and things like this happened. I guess it was critical of me.

Anyway, I took him home then and cried after I dropped him off. I kept telling myself I can do this, I can keep seeing him like this. But it is so hard, not seeing him though is much harder. No win situation.

When we drove he mentioned the car....that I got this great car and how quickly it gets warm and all....I just wanted to say, it means nothing, it is just a car, a machine.....not what I want. (He was the one that wanted a new car, I was fine with my old one, then 2 weeks later he was gone....and I was left with this new car I did not even want......sure I am glad I have it now, since I don't want to be out there in -20 weather dealing with a car that brakes down now that I don't have H....so I guess everything happens for a reason....)

Anyway, he said to come by his place and he would give me a ride to the airport when I leave......since he is taking care of my cats and it is far from his work and now has no car, I'll have to leave the car here for him. I know he offered the ride to the airport only as a way for him to get my car....wonder if he would have offered had he had his own car......

We said goodbuy....I felt really sad, no hug.....

At one point in the car I was telling him something as we drove and he was kind of dazed and just looked at me and I smiled at him and touched his leg....I wonder if he was uncomfortable by it.....

I question everything.....I know he has given up.......we are over as far as he is concerned.....I still cannot accept how he can do that.......I love him, want to be with him and he does not want that....yet at one point he wanted to have a life with only me....and now sooner or later someone else will enter his life and I will permanently be discarded...no more movies or dinners....nothing....

Daisy

So I'll be leaving in a couple of days. I thought that I would bake something as a thank you for H for taking care of the cats for me....If I am doing a sort of Plan A, keeping contact etc....does this makes sense....or should I not do it. I don't want to come of as a desperate woman, but at the same time, I know how much he would like that....he really loves this one desert I make......

He will be staying at my house, so I thought I would just leave it out here for him....

any thoughts.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

ok, so I have more silly questions.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

there is this picture that I had of H on my desk at home for years now.....after all this I took the picture out and put something else in there.....he did notice it once and commented on it.....would putting it back be a good idea....If I want to show him I have not given up on us that is.....

Daisy

oh daisy

you sound as scared and lost as i am

i do realize the things that i should have done differently with my H...i really do believe the words in this song:

"you don't know what you've got, until it's gone...and i found out a little too late.

i was acting as if you were lucky to have me. doing you a favor, i hardly knew you were there.

and then you were gone, and it all was wrong, i had no idea how much i cared."

now WHEN will our H realize this???

i think you are so lucky that your H still wants to spend time with you...i miss my h so much...i'd give anything to go see a movie with him or even to sit across the table from him just talking

you have every opportunity to plan A right now!

ps
I would put the picture back (just my opinion)

Hi Daisy,

I have never given any advice to anyone on this board, but since I am in a similar predicament (separared no kids) I though I would give you my 2 cents on my experience

Earlier on I also felt that if I didnt initiate contact, then there would be no contact. But, I realized that if things continued as they were, then his feelings towards me would never change. As long as I continued to be the only one making contact, it would remain that way. I wanted him to miss me and not know I would always be there for him, so I stopped calling him. It took him awhile, but he at least calls now (even if it is just for a few minutes).

I dont know if any of this helps, but I wish you the best.

Eav....thank you! I am grasping at straws here......but what else is there really? I'll put the picture up.

I set there and listened to my H and I love him dearly....I did tell myself though not to idealize the situation....that he can be quite difficult....and all....but nevertheless I want to try to make it work....I feel so desperate sometimes eav.....I want to ask him so many questions...."do you still love me, do you not want to be with me at all, is there any chance at all that you might consider giving this (ME) another chance..etc.."...i want to convince him I will never take him for granted again....that I will be there for him like I never was....I honestly did my best....I was a big domestic support...I would at the spare of the moment always bake something just cause I knew he liked it.... I showed my love and affection in ways that just were not what he was looking for.....I would always think about him when I went shoping for groceries and think what he would love......I bought him this huge apple caramel pie just before he left me even though I knew he could never eat it.....just cause I knew he would like it.....it was for 12 people.......

The trouble was that we each showed our love and gave affection the way we wanted it to be given to us....I wanted him to think about me and bring me something little every once in a while......he never bought flowers and anything like that....the only notes I got where "sorry I am not helping you...."...I did not want those! But I did not appreciate that he would come and just hug me and rub my sholders as I was cooking.....I loved when he did that.....I wanted more though....and now I got nothing.....and I want just one hug....dam.....Can you guys tell I am not doing that great?

Daisy

well....

I have not worn my wedding ring since Sept....it was just so painful to wear it when he had not since July.....

Now I kind of feel like he would think I am desperate if I wear it. I am completely confused on the subject. I know it is my decision....but purely theoretically if you are in plan A or whatever it is that I am in....is wearing the ring part of that?

Daisy

daisy

me, you, and meena are in the same situation-separated and no children

i would ask for the engagement ring back from your H if you want it. it's not silly.

i hope he still has it and you get it back-i think it's better to know but then again there are days that i wish i didn't know the truth but then i remind myself that the truth is the best in the end

IMHO you should avoid any relationship talk for a longggg time. I thought that i had done that-i only talked about working things out about once a month at the most but my H says "that's all i ever talked about, hinted about or joked about" they see it differently then we do

i think you should do a great plan A...especially now since it's christmas and avoid the R talk altogether for awhile -no questions either. It's just too much pressure for them i guess.

but then again what do i know? you're better off than i am:)

EAv....
Well, I am not going to be here for the holidays to do any sort of plan A.....I am off for a week to see a friend and then I'll be off for 10 days to see my family adn H will be with his family and friends and not miss me at all.

I am planning to send him emails.....

See what you say is exactly what I worry about. If I start wearing my wedding ring now, will H see it as me thinking about "us" which is not something he wants to think about nor really wants.

S.H. told me to ask H to look at HN/HN, not as a way to tell him to work on it but as a way to show him I am working on me and that I need to know what I did and just want his help in this.....I am really scared that it will turn H off.....he does not like R talk at all and I am afraid that this is R talk......I am less confident today about doing it......I don't know where to get my confidence.....

Thank you for your thoughs eav......

I don't really feel like I am in a better place then you....I do get to see him, yet it is soooo hard....I cry every time I leave him.....he seems so ok with going to his room in the basement.....it is HIS and only HIS and I don't bother him there.....

Daisy

One thing that happened tonight when I saw H left me very unsettled.

When I got to his place, his roomate was there (a guy) and I was telling H that I went to see "Walk the Line". He asked me how it was....and I was telling them....and at one point I did mention about the OW and how he was kind of clueless and then I said something about him leaving his W for the OW (I know that is not how it was, but I said something along those lines, I just cannot remember now).....H response was "well, it happens all the time" and he laughed.....I did my best to hide just how unnerving what he said was to me........

Probably means nothing.....


Daisy

oops! I forgot to add Slammed to the list!

i would take Steve's advice about the book. He's the expert! and send an e-mail to office@marriagebuilders.com asking that it be forewarded to steve. Ask him your two questions: about the ring and the picture. Jennifer always responds so I'd think he would also.

just to clarify...your H room is in YOUR basement?? I thought he had moved out, i must have misunderstood the situation or missed this information! If he is still in your home....you DO have so many opportunities to plan A!!