ark's post says so well what I would recommend for YOU....

mimi,
Can you elaborate a bit more on why the Harleys don't like the 180 plan?

Also, I don't think I am being distant. I just don't call and persue him as I did in the past. I also think that I am more fun for him to hang out with now, because
1. I am more relaxed
2. I don't talk about the R (he does not want to talk about it, to him it is over).
3. I am doing things that he would not expect
4. I don't make him uncomfortable by letting him know I want to work on us.

When we have been together recently I got the feeling he left our meetings feeling good. In the first few months he did not feel that way.

But I don't know if that is a good thing or not. I don't want to turn into a buddy, but into someone he wants to be with again....in a relationship.

I guess I got to go read up on Plan A more to see what I could be doing differently.

FAct is that I already did plan A before. In my aditute I am able to meet some of his emotional needs. His main one (I am going to ignore sex here because I cannot meet that need when he has an A) is conversation. I have been meeting that with our few conversations quite well, by taking the focus from me to him and asking questions that lead him to give me more than a yes/no response. I have also said nice things to him to give him a feeling of admiration, but I have to admit that I am less inclined to do that now, because it is hard to admire a person that is having an A. But I do ask about his classes, how it is going, etc.

I am not in contact with him like I use to be to meet his other needs. And I met those needs quite well when we were together. Our problem was that I was too needy and I was not open to discussions about what was the problem in our relationship. I became a very emotionaly dependent woman. And the fact is that I was a stong woman and he liked that about me when we met. I became too vulnerable in the R, and I did became too clingy and that was not who he fell in love with. This is not to say that he was a saint. But, it became imposible for him to tell me how he felt and I also out of fear of loosing him, did not say what I felt.

So, I actually feel that if anything, it is the 180 that could show him again that I am a strong woman, that I just got a little lost there. With Plan A, I am afraid he will again see me as the needy woman that he did not like. And I am not sure how to do a Plan A without appearing needy adn clingy. THe 180 makes it more clear how to not appear needy.

Daisy

Could you explain more about why you feel this way?

It is definitely not good to appear needy and clingy during PLAN A...

Ark explains this well...

I don't get the value of the 180 Plan as I understand it.

It definitely would not have worked with my H who had felt rejected and neglected by me.

I think it's important to give your WS the message that you can show him LOVE..make those LOVE DEPOSITS..

I guess I just don't understand how the 180 Plan does that..

The Harleys encourage their approach..PLAN A then PLAN B...as the most effective strategy for Marital Recovery...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

mimi....
I am thinking on this......I'll respond later!

Thank you!

Daisy

mimi....

I read arks post.

When H came back from vacation in Sept, I stop all R talk. I was there when he wanted to hang out. I was not needy, I did not beg him. I did my own thing. Then in Nov I did feel him pull away from me and I decided to have a R talk. I guess this is where I broke plan A (according to what ark has there). I did cry, and I was did tell him I was hurting and that I still loved him. We had another talk 2 weeks later and that went a little better because he actually tried to explain to me how he felt (in the first talk, I did all the talking). However, he did say we don't work and he does not want to have a R or M with anyone and basically was not ready to be married. All along this time, I did give him some gift here and there (B-day and christmas). Since christmas, we have hung out and talked, but no R talk (his emails to me over christmas, emphisies that we were done, that we were just friends). I have been more aloof, since christmas. I have given no indication that I want him back, in other words I have been prity much relaxed, and what I would call fun to be with. I don't call as I use to. I basically have only called him when there was business pressing.

Now, I don't know if that fits with Plan A or not.

Now, I found out this thing with the A. I am a little concerned about talking about it as an A when he is saying we are over, and tells people we are seperated and not together anymore. And I really cannot say when this R with whoever he is sleeping with started.


Plan A and B are designed when an A is going on. But we have been seperated for months, he has said we are over, and so this A may not be that, if he started the relationship after he said we are over. I am worried that I will bring up an A, and he really just meant that it was a love A. Yet if he is saying that they are lovers, why would sex make things complicated? Is not sex a part of a love affair?

Ok, I think I have turned into a prezzel in this logic and I might have answered my own question. It must be an affair because if you have a "love affair" you would not see sex as being complicated, would you?


I think I am not making sense again. i am not doing too well right now. I have not eaten all day, it is a bad habit when I am stressed out. I got to get something to eat and I'll be back ........

Daisy

I don't have the time to digest your post tonight, Daisy.

I will respond tomorrow.

However, I will say this.

IMO, he does not have the right to define the relationship.

I would say for you to act according to your own belief system..whether he considers you to be a friend or whatever...

If you believe that he is your husband..with all of its significance and meaning...respond to this situation as his wife..regardless of what he wants...

So I say..if YOU BELIEVE in your MARRIAGE and want to FIGHT for it..DO SO..regardless of what HE says and how HE defines the R at this point..

That would mean..PLAN A...

mimi.....thank you....

I see what you are saying.

Ark's post was really clear on Plan A. It actually sounded very much like what I think of as a 180. Letting go, not expecting anything in return, being positive, happy, making changes in my life, no pressure about the R, etc.

First thing, I need to think about how to talk to him about the A (or whatever it is).

Do, I call him and tell him I know he is seeing someone? Do, I send him a letter? Do I meet with him for coffee and tell him then? What do I say if he denies seeing someone? What do I say if he says it is non of my business? What do I say if he says that he can date who ever he wants?

If I am not suppose to have relationship talk, then do I just tell him I know about the A and not say anything more? How do I tell him to end the A if I am not to have any R talk?

I am having a hard time seeing how to go about this.....

Daisy

I realized that it has been only 6 days since I found out about WH's A. Seems like it should be longer......

Feeling ok today. I wish I really had someone to talk to about his A, but don't really got anyone right now.

I have not talked to WH since Saturday. Before the A I had this need to call him.....but now I don't feel it. I am still sorting out the issues on letting him know that I know about the A.

I feel calm and I trying to approach this with a bit of detachment. I need to come up with what I will say to him...like the first sentence for example!

I figure I can give this another week or so....make sure I am able to be calm and rational when I discuss this with him.


Daisy

daisy

i'm amazed at your ability to wait until you can be rational until you talk to your H! WOW!

in respoinse the why your H calls it an affair.....regardless of if it started before or after he left and was gone for months.....the two of your are still married and that equals an affair....

when you need someone to talk to come here! I wish i could offer more but you know how badly I'm dealing with this!

i could offer you someone to talk to but i doubt that i have anything to say that could help except that your situation looks much better than mine...if that helps any
...at least your H still considers you his friend, you have the opportunity to continue to plan A and have contact with him, and he's not living with OW

darn it now i feel worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

eav....

Yah, I am amazed as well. It is quite shocking to me to realize that my reaction to his A was very mild in comparason to when I found out he "always loved" his long HS friend (back in Nov). I guess I am in a better place now.

You know, I could so move past his A if we were to get back together. I am more concerened about his ability to be his old goofy self around me while he is basically stabing me in the back.....I just don't know what to make of it. I use to think that when he was like that (all sweet and goofy) that he was happy with me....what does it mean now?

I got home and there was a voice mail from H. I was quite surprised by it as he hardly calls. Called me at noon (what would I be doing home, I work). He could have tried me at work I guess. I went to get lunch at that time. He called "just to say hello". I am not sure about calling him back tonight. Should I?

I was adviced against a 180 type of plan, but maybe not responding right away is part of the Plan A as well (I recall someone saying that to you regarding emails).


Thank you for writing to me eav.....

I know that my situation looks more promissing to some BS whose's WS are off living with the OP (as your case). Maybe it is true, I don't know. I just know that it hurts to know that after a 4 year relationship, he is satisfied with a call here and a little chat there. How can that be? I am not satisfied!

Oh, and thanks for your thoughts regarding whether this is an A or not. I know that the law sees it as an A. And frankly if he was at least doing something about the D....but he is not. In his mind, he left and we are not together anymore, so he can do what he wants. All one can do is shake the head!

Daisy

"Emotional Divorce"
This is the same sitch I find myself in too... the WS FEEL that they are already divorced, so they can do whatever they want and is none of our biz.
Somehow it is all just an internal rationalization to me...
For the pros...How does one help the WS out of that delusion? or is it necessary?

I'm leaving to go out of town until Sunday...

My suggestion is this:

Think about what attracted your WH to you when you first started dating. Even for me, after 30 years, the same techniques work. Do just that as if you were wooing him again...Call him and say: "I just wanted to hear your voice..Cook his favorite meal...WOO HIM...

Once he is feeling positive towards you then tell him: I DECIDED THAT I DO NOT WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND ANYMORE..I WANT TO BE YOUR WIFE...

This is not about what HE WANTS..

It's not about how HE DEFINES your Relationship.

It's about what YOU want.

I would let him know that you are not going to be his friend..only his wife..if this is how you feel...

In this discussion, let him know that you know that he is having an A and that will stand in the way of the goal of working on your marriage..

I know I said this quickly because I am about out the door...

I hope others will help you with this...

You can do it!!

GOD IS WITH YOU!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

stu....

I guess the way I understand it, the WS that comes back does realize that they actually are not even emotionally divorced from the BS. Then there are WS that eventually realize that they actually have to do the D, and an "emotional D" is not enough. And then I get a feeling are those that don't want to deal with the actual D at all, think the "emotional D" is enough, and it is the BS who finally has to get the ball rolling and get the D done. The last case, I think is the one most "fogged" and there is no way you will be able to convince them of anything. They want to ignore the situation, "what, we are broken up" attitude is part of their bubble. They don't want to deal with the actual D process because that would involve facing it. They are relieved when YOU, the BS, get it all done, and they just sign the paper work.

Daisy

THank you for your post mimi....


This is harder then it seems.....but I am trying...in the sense that I engage him in conversations and do give him compliments.

I have been more reserved on the phone calls.....and I am really not sure about inviting him to dinner. I may invite a number of people and ask him to come along as well.


I guess this is what I have the hardest problem with.......I want to be together.............he does not............hard to see how my wants can win over here.......

I'll keep it in mind though.....

Daisy

Mimi...again, thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My brain is trying hard to think back to when we were dating.........

I realized one of the things H liked was when I talked to him about my work. It was not going as well as I hoped in the last 2 years, was really stressing me out, so I stopped talking about it much. But, last summer, we had a really nice talk as we talked about one of my papers. He read it and gave me some nice comments. It was the last nice conversation we had still as a couple.

Anyway, so I decided to ask him if he could have a look at another paper for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Even though it is technical, he has always been interested to read them and has a way of pointing out to me where it kind of drags and is confusing. So, I send him an email asking him to have a look at it. I let him know that I appreicated when he looked at them in the past, and would really like to hear his comments again. I did mention that I can give him a hard copy if he likes ....

I just heard from him. He said he would be happy to do it and would stop by my office <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I know he works today, so I kind of doubt he will show up today (which is too bad, because I am wearing the suit and earing he got me last christmas ~ I was tempted to give it back, but it is not like he could use it). I'll give it to him some other time.


Anyway, I am working on it. He is not going to get me out of his life that easy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />!

I remember Jean saying that she would not go about wooing her H and I understand it. I am not thinking of this as wooing him. I am thinking of this as me showing him what he is missing. Because, he really is missing out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I am not that sad girl he left behind. No way. I am even handeling his whole A quite well.

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LOL, don't do anything that I have done, but feel free to use me as a template for what not to do!!

I would have wooed my WH, actually I did for the first couple of weeks after D-day. But now I am to the point where he is a total stranger to me and I would have no idea how to woo him.

You sound good, I know that finding out he is definately seeing someone is hard. I think maybe it has helped clear things up for you and now you do have all the facts to make an informed decision and game plan.

Jean,

I could so see what you were saying about not wanting to woo him. I feel the same way. If anything, with his A, he should be wooing me, not the othere way.

At this time, I am just feeling so much better than I was just a few months ago. I know that I will have a good life without him. That realization has made it so much easier to be around him. I am not over him. My feeling for him are real and I am not flushing them down the toilet. I still love him, but I see for the first time in months, that I can live a great life. I am actually enjoying my life so much more then I did while he was here with me.

I relied on him way too much. He was it in my life. I did everything for him, and in return I expected a lot from him. I expected him to do for me and to want to be with me all the time. Now I am enjoying the little things, and having fun as well, with different people.

Anyway, I am just in a much better place to be able to be around him and have a good time. Wether he stops to notice or not is not going to determine if I am happy or not.

Daisy

H came by my office to pick up the paper. We talked for an hour. All sorts of stuff. A little about my work, more about his classes, and then just random things. He looked better then last Saturday. He looked prity comfortable sitting there talking. Once he gets going about what they cover in the classes he reads he has a hard time stopping. It is all on philosophy and kind of out there, but some things are interesting when I relate them to what I do. Anyway, he seemed to enjoy the conversation. I did as well.

It was much better then on Saturday. My mind did not drift to the A much and when it did it did not take over my thoughts.

I was really relaxed with him, which felt good. I thought afterwards, that the last few times we talked it has been so much better then when we were together. Maybe we can take each other only in small doses.

At one point I said I had a headacke because I only splept 3 hours on Tuesday night and it throuw me off.

He asked "you just couldn't sleep or did you party too much?".....I said "I don't know" and laughed....he did not believe that and said, you don't know (obviously wanting to know). I replied "could be both" and asked him if he had ever had a paralizer? We chated about drinks a bit, and I did mention a really good drink I had recently at this restaurant. I told him the name of the restaurant when he asked. His reply was: is that not a really nice place? Yah, it is. He reminded me that we had gone to this same restaurant in another town ( .....I know we went there just before he left me.......we planned how we were going to go out more often and enjoy the good food and atmosphere).


Oh, and then he asked me if I had seen his phone address book at the house and some other book. It has been 4 weeks since he was here. I thought he would ask me sooner for it. I said I would have a look around. I was not about to jump and get it for him. I am happy to help my H....not this character.

Daisy

Hi Daisy,

I am glad you seem to remain very calm and have been able to handle things in a logical and pleasant manner. Your H may or may not have recognized such change, but you are doing this for your own sake, not for his. If your H is in the right mind, he should have noticed that you seem to have started having your own life without him. But since he is too busy thinking about himself (like my STBXH), he may not have noticed, but that is okay. Either he will, eventually, or he may not but by then you will be indifferent and these things may not bother you as much.

I am more emotionally detached from STBXH now as well, I believe. Most of the time, I am doing fine. Now I look back, I think it might be true that STBXH has lost his love for me for whatever reasons. It is very unfortunate, but there is nothing I can do about it. And even if that is true that he has lost his love for me, I do not believe that he will be able to find someone he will not have any complaints about either. It is possible that he ends up loving this person much more than he loved me, but she will never be perfect, and IF STBX has lost his love for me just because he felt that I was lacking some qualities he was seeking in his wife and also he felt that our M was not exciting anymore, his future OW will have the same issue eventually. IF STBXH left, because he truly does not have any emotional feelings for me and almost hates me now for whatever reasons, then he might get happier with whoever he might meet in the future. But he has said that he does not hate me (even though he has a lot of anger towards me) and he wants us to remain friends, so I don't know if this is the case.

Either way, I should not over analyze things. At this moment he does not love me and that is all I have to work with. I cannot stop my life because of that, my life continues - and I have to make the best out of it.

You seem to maintain civil relationship with your WH, which is good. You have whole a lot better emotional control than I do! Keep up the good work Daisy.

Milk

Hey milk.....thank you.

I had a rough morning. Really hard to get motivated and feel any sort of optimism or even purpose for the day.

I am feeling much better now. I guess these low moments still come around and I just got to accept it. The thing is that I know that they will not last and I don't let them last too long now. Several hours is much better then several days as last year....

I finally had a realization tonight that for some strange reason helped me to feel better. I realized that H is not in LOVE with me. I don't know why it took me so long to get thath (I just kept holding on, I even said something I that last week!). Anyway, maybe it was helpful because yet again I know where I stand. It makes more sense to look at his actions with this new info then to wonder if he still loves me.

In any case, I think there is some chance he could love me again, but I don't hold my breath for that to happen. I can see that he is really just very negative, but I think the fact that he still talks to me and calls over here is a sign that he is not completely done with me. I just cannot see why he would call over here and want to talk to me 2x a week or more it he is complete done. I don't talk to my friends 2x a week. I don't call them "hey there, its me".....and talk hang out with them. Ofcourse this could all change, and I am prepairing for that.

It is so strange the thing with the A. I realized that I completely forgive him. After talking to him yesterday I realized that I did not hate him.......I guess I was in quite a shock last Saturday at the movies.....I wish he could be honest about it though......

I found it really funny yesterday when I saw him. His hair was in such a deseray. He shaves his head himself, and then as his hair grow back because of the shape of his head the hair come oddly, pointing in all sorts of directions. When we were together, he always used a gel, not now. He also use to get this really nice haircut, that I just loved, he looked so sexy, I am glad he does not have it now.....it would be harder to look at him....as is he has this really goofy look......I love him. Dam. It still is true.

Why does he not love me? I wish I could go back and identify the moment when he was falling out of love with me and I could do things differently......too late for that though......

Daisy