pep when I posted my last post - i hadn't read your post.

Our great minds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> are thinking alike...see my post to BT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dorry .... this whole thing has a very "deja vu" feeling .... KWIM?

One thing I'd like to point out to BreakingThread,

One thing that sticks in my mind, that I have a hard time forgetting, is when you came on T_D's threads back in July to talk about how insufficient his efforts were to win you back to the marriage. You pointed out several things you claimed he was not being honest about in his threads.

You didn't see fit to mention the fact that, even as you were contributing to T_D's threads and telling us how inadequate his efforts were, that you were having an affair.

Because of that, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt.

I agree, however, that T_D has GOT to stop the angry outbursts. I have been telling him that for as long as I've known him. And I believe he understands that he has got to stop, and he is trying hard to do so.

Yep pepper...

CC - you are right TDs outbursts have to stop - but so do BT's! Both are very abusive...and I feel BT is playing her emotions as for sympathy and for escaping any blame or contributing she has to acknowledge.

Life is so much easier when we don't have to look at ourselves.

Hats off to TD for looking at HIMSELF and ADMITTING where he is weak and his problems - don't think it was easy for him to ADMIT he could be cruel and mean...but he did and he is looking to change - GOOD JOB.

Has BT looked at herelf and admited she is an ADULTRESS whether TD was mean or not. I see alot of abuse from BT, and I don't see TD having an A...has BT admited her words can be cruel too?

It takes two to make these changes grow and stick in a marriage...lets see both of you step up to the plate.

Dorry,

I have always thought that both T_D and BT have been LoveBusting each other like crazy. T_D has acknowledged this and is working on it (I have had no contact with BT until today, so I cannot comment about her) - but you are right, both have been indulging in LoveBusting for far too long.

TD,

You act like a kid that when things do not go as he wishes, throws in a tantrum. Cursing and saying that you have had with this thread is an example of this.

Having said this, I believe you are on the right track and are genuinely trying to make things better in your life. Things will not always go smoothly. Do not give in when things are not going the way you'd expect them to, which may be unwarranted at times in light of the situation. Your current situation does not encompass a linear path.

Just be aware that we are here for you. Even if your M is not saved, we'll be here to help you see this through.

We see your efforts and know that you are trying to do the right thing. You are not alone in this!

I only say it cause it was so much like my H and myself...it was how we even got into resentment before my A. He would get nasty - I would get hurt and get nasty back - he would then get hurt too and ignore me or hold on to resentment, I would hold back...and take his distance as him not loving me...leading to worse feelings, adn then ultimately I got involved in an affair.

Had I known how to NOT hurt back - perhaps all of this could have been prevented. H is now recognizing when he has been hurtful - he hasn't curbed the LB yet - but he also doesn't follow the MB program anymore...but he recognizes it and that is huge.

Our recovery was hindered as we STILL did this, and eventually it led to H having an A, as all we did was hurt eachother and he was sick of hurting me and being hurt - he met someone and shortly after left...in the hopes to start a new life...

The cycle has to be broken by someone, and I think if TD has the strength he can take that first step...

I worry though that BT is not far enough out of the fog though and will still subconciously set him up to fail...as it's what I used to do all the time...

I just feel so much familiarity in their story...it's why I am wondering so much if OM is still in the picture, or if contact was super recent...

Td - I am so proud of you for admiting and seeing where you have failed and where you can change. KEEP IT UP! The battle has only just begun.

Pep, Dorry and CC,

I agree with you. I hope BT sees that TD wants to work on himself and possibly the M. He is trying to make improvement; he is not trying to besmirch BT. Both parties must acknowledge their contributions to the state of their M. And unfortunately, it is this admission that I see lacking on BT's part.

If BT is filing for divorce to be open to marriage with a man who is willing to cheat with her when she has three young children at home, and to comfort her because her husband is so dangerous, etc., I predict she will look back at this time with great regret. And her children will suffer the consequences of her selfish willingness to cast aside her wedding vows.

It's one thing to separate and give the offending spouse an opportunity to address the problems in the marriage. It's quite another to file for divorce and go on to the next man.

If you have a chance, BT, dig into some of the past emails to Dr. Harley. One couple married after having an affair and ending their marriages; children are involved. I believe that abusive behavior was present in the prior marriage. Out of the pot into the fire...

Cherishing

I think it's worthwhile to take what they both say with a grain of salt. Both have displayed substantial dishonesty problems.

I'm still where I've always been since TD first posted -- I'm willing to talk to him, but I'm not prepared to try to help BT. BT, that's not about you at this point -- just that I think it's better I only talk to one or the other, and I can follow TD's thinking better at this point.

TD/DI, make the contract. It's real, it's serious, it shows you mean business. Then do whatever it takes to keep it.

That is the only escape from the behavioral problems. Fix the behavior first and absolutely, doing whatever it takes. Below and after that on the priority list is fixing the thoughts behind the behavior. Then after that comes fixing the emotions, the past traumas. That is the path to freedom. Dr. Harley outlined that to you to some extent. The key is to act well however you feel, not work on feeling well so that you'll act well if in the mood. Right now you're still doing it backwards -- depending on the meds to make you feel well so you feel like acting well.

Make the contract. Keep it.

OK, I am back..... UVA is right, I threw a tantrum.

In hindsight, I should have waited longer to post again instead of posting while my feelings were hurt.

I should not have attacked my W on here either. Predicatbly, things did not go well last night. I was luckily out of the house until all were in bed, so we didn't really argue. After posting, then thinking better of it, I called W to tell her that I posted in anger, and that I was sorry about it. After reading it, she was not very happy with me. I can't say I blame her. My rash emotional responses always come back to bite me.

MOS, your comments about meds are pretty much what W says. I do tend to rely on meds alot. Sleeping pills have been the norm more often than not for me since d-day, and I tend to look towards pharmaceuticals for assistance in dealing. Call it a professional pitfall I guess. But it is probably more related to never really learning how to deal with emotional things on my own, and looking for someone or something else to do it for me. Just another symptom of my core problem.

dorry, I can't really accept the "proud of you" stuff. I have known my behavior sucks for a while now but haven't been able to do anything about it when push comes to shove. Now I have been on the mood stabilizer for about 2 weeks now, and even though I do feel much more calm and less angry about everything in general, I have avoided all arguements with W and haven't really been in a "push comes to shove" situation.

Albeit, in the past, her current attitude towards me would have brought me in to a push/shove situation because I would have become arguemetnative, but now I don't feel like arguing and let it go.

One thing that bothers me about W and MC, and I don't like "piling on" or criticizing my W on here.... but the underlying message I get, and have gotten since MC started after d-day is that "her A was out of character for her. it is over now, she is back in character, so she has nothing to address. however, my behavior has been long-term and has been "in-character" for me so it needs to be the sole focus of what we address in MC".

And that is pretty much what we did for the majority of MC post d-day, address my past porn use and selfish, immature, self-centered behavior. Yes it is / was all true and needs to be dealt with. BUT, to expect that to be the sole focus, to expect me to go to MC week after week and listen to 55 minutes of how bad of a H I have been, then spend maybe 5 minutes on W's A, and expect me to react positively, well obviously I didn't. I couldn't cope with my W's A. I knew that I wanted to stay with her, but couldn't emotionally accept staying with her while also accepting what she did. And MC didn't seem able to find the right method to help me deal with it.

Honestly, the current counselor I see now for IC basically told me I have to just "get over it, let it go". I know this, but easier said than done!

It wasn't until I started the mood stabilizer that I have felt emotionally able to accept the A and staying with W in the same reality. In fact, I don't think about the A much now.

thanks all for the comments, even the ones I don't like.

Ok, so what are you going to do about it?


Well that's lovely and all, but when you post (or speak to your wife) this kind of diagnostic blather and don't combine it with any attempt to address the problem, it sounds like yet another cop-out.

Go back to the chain I posted before: figuring out *why* is waaaaaay down there on the priority list. All that matters right now is stopping the behavior. So long as the bad behavior is still going on, nobody affected really gives a rat's heinie why you're doing it.

One more time: fix behavior -- the rest can wait. Write the contract. Sign it. Keep it.

Oh and your IC is right -- drop the "but she did bad stuff too" garbage for the time being -- it's getting in your way. Yes, it's true, but it's still getting in your way and you're still using it to saboutage your own progress. So drop it.

You fix your own behavior because your behavior is your responsibility. That's it. It does not matter one bit what anyone else does when it comes to your choice on this. You fix yours no matter what.

Backwards: "I'll act badly when I feel badly, so I'll look for ways to not feel bad and call that progress."

Backwards: "I did a lot of bad stuff and I have to fix it but she did too and I'm not happy about fixing my bad stuff unless I see how I feel about her bad stuff addressed."

Path to Freedom: "I will behave well no matter what I feel."

ContractContractContract. I've noticed you keep avoiding addressing this one.

Your last post was pretty good. I understand the "backwards" concept you keep driving home.

As for as the contract, I would be open to it. However, we are not in MC right now. And I agree with my counselor that it is best for us not to talk about our relationship outside of a MC setting for the time being.....

posted by T_D
but the underlying message I get, and have gotten since MC started after d-day is that "her A was out of character for her. it is over now, she is back in character, so she has nothing to address. however, my behavior has been long-term and has been "in-character" for me so it needs to be the sole focus of what we address in MC".

Although your threads should be about YOU and what YOU are doing to learn self improvement and practice marriage building skills, I would caution you not to allow your MC to brush the A under the carpet. Your M will not magically recover from the A if you learn anger management skills. Your lack of such skills was not the cause of the A.

posted by mos
You fix your own behavior because your behavior is your responsibility. That's it. It does not matter one bit what anyone else does when it comes to your choice on this. You fix yours no matter what.

These words are well suited to BT also. The A was her choice resulting from her behaviors and lack of marital skills.

T_D

I hope you are seeing an anger management professional (not a MC) to better understand your anger and learn the appropriate management skills and not simply relying on the meds to make you 'feel' less like becoming angry. It's okay to get angry. The trick is to constructively manage that anger.

Don't allow the entire focus of your marital recovery however, to become anger management. Simply because your W may have ended her A does not mean that she is any more 'fixed' than you are.

I am sure I read somewhere that even Dr. Harley would divorce rather than go thru the pain of trying to rebuild a marriage after infidelity. It is hard work and you do have a right to be angry but you do not have the right to be abusive.

TD this board is a good board but I would recommend you not post on here if you want to save your marriage. Spend the money and get professional help.

You do have anger problems but posting this where your wife can come in and view and correct you IMHO is not a good idea. Although all of us people here are well meaning we are not professionals. We do not even know you and your wife.

One last thing. I consider a wife that is married to a man that goes out and screws other men to be abusive. Your wife is abusive to you also and if she does not see it then let her go. I think you will then have less anger.

She will use your anger as a reason for her affiar. That is like a spouse punching their spouse in the face and claiming it was the other spouses fault because they made them mad. It is only an excuse.

If your wife is not held accountable for this then you are heading down the road to heartache. Good luck my friend and I hope you both can turn things around.

Ok, so what are you going to do differently? What is your plan?

You're good at coming up with reasons not to do certain things, but what ARE you going to do?

Taking meds and waiting for your current therapy obviously isn't adequate -- you still blew your stack. So now what?

MOS,

Actually, I haven't blown my stack for 3-4 weeks, early in the seperation. And that was over the phone. W called someone to get our gararge door fixed. And of all the people she choose to call, she called a very good friend of OM. This guy goes to our church and is supposed to be "high up" in it. This past summer, as OM and I were coaching our boys baseball team TOGETHER (during the A), this other guy had a son on the team. He began making seriously innapropriate comments to W in a sexual way during the games. I was going to talk to him but W told me not to. Now she thinks he didn't know about A. She gets mad when I say he was probably trying to "get in line". But let's be realistic here...

Then, when the guy was at our house fixing the garage door, and I am gone due to the seperation, he asks W about my whereabouts, and she tells him I am gone because we are seperated.

So now, not only does this guy know that W is at home alone and is seperated from her husband, what are the odds that he told OM?

Yes, that PISSED me off. That was a VERY stupid thing for her to do if she had / has any desire to save the marriage.

So we argued over the phone.

I don't know.... when I sit back and think about all of those types of incidents that have happened since d-day, it kind of makes me wonder what I am doing.....

Damage,

I haven't read your whole story. I only remember one time last year lurking here when you found out your wife was in an affair and your post scared me.

That said, I see that you actually do want to change.

I have a problem with anger as well. I've always felt out of control when I feel threatened. Unlike my husband, I don't so much lash out as implode. Either way, it ain't good.

Through all our struggles, we've been to a number of counsellors/coaches. I'm currently involved in an emotion regulation program that seems to really get it. Putting aside all that I have done, all that my husband has done, I've been trying to understand how I feel about me. It's very hard to face the fact that no matter what anyone has done to me, how I have reacted/acted has been totally my choice.

Anyway, I feel for you. It's hard to change how one has been for years. If you get a chance, check out this website: www.compassionpower.com. Dr. Stosny specializes in working with anger. He calls it emotional regulation though, not anger management. He is a childhood survivor of physical abuse, so he certainly understands the knee jerk reactions we can cultivate to stress factors in our lives.

I know this is a struggle for you. I wish you all the best.

Earth to DI -- you threw a tantrum right on this thread not even two days ago.

So since what you've been doing is inadequate, what are you going to change?

So far you're "all hawk and no spit" as they say in Texas -- a lot of talk and precious little action. Time to get the lead out.