[color:"blue"]Read this if you are doing individual counseling while trying to work on your marriage !!! [/color]


I posted on the semiar attendees board this past Wednesday and Dr Harley said
Quote:
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Damage_Inc: The "discovery" that you have a borderline personality disorder instead of a narcissistic personality disorder should be little comfort to your wife or her counselor. From the perspective of most therapists today, neither can be treated effectively. Those who claim to be effective in treating them are either misdiagnosing the problem, or are not following up to determine the results of their treatment. By the way, the most obvious symptom of a borderline personality disorder is a long history of abandonment issues with urges to harm oneself (self-mutilation and attempted suicide are common). If your wife or her counselor were to believe that you were suffering from this disorder, they would run for the hills. But I seriously doubt that this is your problem.
Instead, I would suggest that your basic problem is that have not taken your marital problems seriously enough until now. You may also have problems with impulse control and mood swings, which would explain why the anti-depressant medication you are now taking is helping to stabilize you. These problems can be solved if a counselor focuses on bad habits and lifestyle issues rather than abandonment issues. Your Taker has been in charge of your life throughout most of your marriage, and her Taker is now telling her that she's had enough of your selfish behavior, which is a reasonable conclusion to come to, under the circumstances.
During the seminar I warned everyone that personal counseling tends to lead to divorce, and many of these counselors have been divorced. Your wife's personal counselor is not trying to save your marriage -- she's trying to provide your wife with an escape. Very few personal counselors try to resolve personal issues in the context of creating a successful marriage. Instead, they look at marriage as the source of the personal issues, and take the easy road by suggesting that the marriage be dissolved. Even your counselor is really doing you no favors by announcing that you have a borderline personality disorder. It is like telling your wife and her counselor that you hopelessly lost and it will take years before you can find your way back.
If both counselors were to work together to try to help you save your marriage, you would be encouraged to do the very things that the Marriage Builders program helps you achieve. It would help you become less selfish and less guided by your impulses. You would practice new habits that would make your wife happy instead of sad. You would become accountable to your wife for all of your behavior, and every decision would be made jointly, with her interests in mind. When the course is over, you and she would be happily married and in love.
I will ask Sandy to arrange a call between me and your wife to determine if she is willing to begin our follow-up program again. If she is, there is real hope for both of you. But I'm afraid that the path you are presently on will lead to divorce.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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[color:"blue"]This is borrowed from Tired Dad/Damage's thread .... [/color]

[color:"red"] too much belly-button-gazing

self-examination of PAST issues

digging around and unearthing long ago HURTS

.... does NOT lead to marriage recovery

changing behaviors and selfish habits is KEY to marital happiness

NOT re-discovery of how screwed up you are and how you got that way

we are ALL screwed up

now what?

I want to get the most out of life RIGHT NOW

yeah, I have been hurt

so what?

really, does my poking at my old childhood wounds help my MARRIAGE?

highly doubtful

eyes on the prize [/color]

I am very glad mine is very pro-marriage. The marriage and my personal relationship with God are what we focus on each time.

We don't go back in history because we are moving forward.

[color:"red"] lest we forget why we are here [/color]

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

[color:"red"]to meet our spouse's important needs and have ours met... to tend carefully and tenderly to our marriage environment ... and to develop new marriage behaviors ... and to stop bad habits that might ruin our marriage

We are NOT here to learn how to open a never ending litany of who hurt us and "waa-waa-poor-me" ourselves until our Taker is full-steam-ahead! [/color]

Pep,

My IC is like moveforeward, she is very pro-marriage and has even went and bought harleys books and read them.

She really likes the MB principals amd is helping me follow them. We discuss my faith and how to be able to restore the marriage if at possible.

We don't discuss my childhood or much of the past. It's all about the here and now...

I agree that IC can be detrimental to a marriage's recovery. While still in "I need to make a decision" mode (i.e. separated from wife and pursuing relationship with OW), H saw a three-times-married "Christian" counsellor who told him his adultery was a one-time sin that he needed to forgive himself for and move on. Sigh.

However, I must say that if it weren't for the IC that I have received in the past two years, I am not sure I would be equipped to build the marriage we both want and need. I bring my own share of issues to this marriage and if I were not examining how/why I relate the way I do, then I would not be able to do more than make surface changes.

For instance, I am discovering how much my "performance anxiety" (which has been present my entire life) is affecting the way I look at myself and my H. My fear of failure, something I have only been able to explore effectively in IC, is the root cause for my perfectionist standards and, in turn, the reason why I resent my H for his choice to not live up to my standards.

I doubt I would be as far down the path of forgiveness as I am were it not for IC. I think that participants in a M that was characterized by co-dependence and CAing before the A do need to understand their individual makeups that have led to creating those patterns, otherwise they are doomed to repeat them.

That said, ICs need to be chosen carefully. Additionally, I think it is important to make it clear at the outset that your goal is to save your marriage as well as yourself, lest the IC assume erroneously that your problems stem (only) from a troubled relationship and advise you to toss the baby with the bathwater.

G

Pep

I understand where you and Willard are coming from here, but I think the advice has to be carefully qualified.

H and I were in separate IC for over a year, and I don't think I'd still be in the marriage if not for that. In truth, our individual ICs were considerably more supportive of keeping the marriage together than our MC!

D-day revealed to me the sad fact that I had failed to confront many issues during our marriage. I'd failed because nothing in the coping skills or world view that I'd developed in my FOO, equipped me to handle the kinds of problems that needed healthy self-assertion. I was simply not capable of conducting myself in a marriage in a way that healthily confronted problems.

Simply to deal with the infidelity fall-out, I had to remake myself as someone who could stand up for herself. Part of doing that was working out what healthy standing-up-for-herself-ness actually was. That involved looking at the conditions that existed within my unhealthy FOO, and seeing where the unhealthiness was. The point of this though - as my IC constantly impressed on me - was to waken the suppressed abilities of the present me, not to marinate in the grievances of the past.

H, in his own IC, was looking to find out what had made him a very different man from his ideal. As part of this, he learned that much of what he had considered 'not enough' in the marriage was actually high quality!

Our separate ICs worked to help us understand each other.

Our MC mediated arguments more than anything else.

In our case, which was not one of Harley-type unmet ENs, personal recovery was necessary for the marriage to stand a chance. Perhaps we were lucky in the ICs we found. But I would hesitate to warn anyone else not to have separate ICs.

I think the therapist's commitment to marriage as a vehicle for growth may be the most important factor.

TA

Hi Pep,

My first IC I went to after the A discovery was the sweetest lady, but she was very angry at my husband for all he put me through knowing my tragic history. I wanted to save my marriage and I love my husband more than life so I had to let her go.

After some searching we found a pair of therapists willing to work together with us. One specialized in the Harville Hendrix pioneered "Imago" therapy, and we now see her together for MC as well. She is very fair and is a cheerleader for positive growth and change facilitating our attempts at compassion and communication for/with one another. I can hardly wait to see what she will challenge us with next. We leave her office feeling like a TEAM!

I hope this is not a threadjack.

My wife and I are going to what I would call hybrid counseling. Sometimes we are counselled separate on the same day and sometime together and sometimes separate, then brought together.

She is a Cristian Counselor we worked with 4 years ago with apparent success at the time. Obviously it is not her fault we wound up in this boat again, but I am not sure we really got to the root of the problem.

My WW felt comfortable enough to go back to her again. She is familiar with The Harley's work, but it does seem we work on trying to understand why "my wife" and "myself" are the way we are. Product of heredity, raising up, etc...

Steve Harley said in the beginning or our MB counseling for us to continue to see her. I think he did not want my wife to feel abandoned or ganged up on, since she was agreeing to go to her and had reservations at talking with Steve.

Anyway, I wonder if we are doing any good still going to her. She is not really concentrating on marriage, but one thing she did do this week is talk to my wife about her relationship/fellowship with God. She encouraged her to work on that. I do think that is a positive.

Hi Pepperband.....I am T_D's a.k.a Damage Inc.'s wife, and I just had to add a few things since you used his post about the counselor and Dr. Harley's response. T_D didn't provide some elements of the situation in his brief post to Dr. Harley, and I think I should clear up a couple things, too.
<p> First, this counselor was "our" counselor for 3 months, until she felt that T_D was not listening to a thing she said, and she suggested a male counselor with a more direct approach that she thought might help T_D with his issues more, and thus, help "us." She was telling T_D all along that I was trying to reconcile, was giving everything I could, and that he was rejecting everything I gave him. I'm not saying I was doing everything perfectly, but I was trying very hard to reach out to him emotionally and physically. She told him that he was driving me back into emotional withdrawal from him, but he would not listen. That is when she suggested he seak individual counseling.
<p> Second, this counselor, whom I now see individually, is a strong Catholic Christian, has been married for more than 25 years, and is pro-marriage. I asked her if she has ever reccommended divorce before, and she said only a couple of times, and both were instances of physical abuse. She sees T_D as emotionally abusive to me with lots of angry outbursts and violence that, although not totally directed AT me, has caused injury to me. Both she and the male counselor who T_D is seeing now see T_D as not "getting" how bad his behavior has been, and still is, up until this week, when he has moderated his behavior. She doesn't see any signs of real, positive change in T_D's behavior patterns, and she sees my mental, emotional, and physical state getting worse by the day. I am now having to cinch up the belt on my size 2 jeans. She saw me trying to do what T_D asked of me after discovery of my affair, even though the marriage I was trying to come back to was a dysfunctional one, with emotional abuse and long-term porn addiction. SHe saw T_D reject every almost effort I made, telling me, her, my entire family,and everyone else who would listen that I was "doing nothing," "showing no remorse," "giving no indication that I want to save the marriage." I went to the MB weekend with him in Philly,and that went very badly, as well, mainly due to T_D letting his anger with me continue to control the situation.
<p> FInally, I insisted on a separation. Things were bad. T_D was saying and doing things in front of the kids that were very damaging. That was about 5 weeks ago. Last week T_D came over, got upset, and broke a crystal bowl that was on the coffee table. That is when the counselor told me to file for divorce. Only after no signs of change in T_D's behavior and continued violent outburts did she say this. She was not looking for an "easy" way to solve my problem.
<p> I am in no way wanting to come on here and "bash" my H. I know he is in his own horrible pain due to what I did, and he is entitled to anger, grief, and sadness. I care about him deeply, and do not want to cause him any more pain. I only wanted to clear up the sitch a bit because the impression that my counselor is just telling me to file for divorce as an easy way out is just not correct. I hardly call divorce an "easy way out," no matter what the circumstance. She feels that at this point, it is the safest choice for me, and the kids, so they hopefully won't have to see any more of this stuff. Since this post was directed towards those who are in IC, I felt I should give more perspective on the situation. It is directed towards that reason, not to call attention to T_D's or my own issues. Thank you.

I am convinced of this. In my case, my WH's IC is a general practice psychiatrist, who specializes in neurological disorders. I am nearly certain that he is encouraging WH to "be himself" and "take care of himself" and if that means leaving the M, so be it.

If only I could persuade WH to continue MC . . .

Counselors are obligated to report any suspicion of abuse. Particularly abuse witnessed by children. I am wondering if your counselor reported ? No proof is required to report. Only reasonable suspicion. If there was no report, either the behavior did not rise to the level of abuse, or your counselor was remiss in her duties to report all serious suspicions of abuse.

I did not say our counselor sees my H as physically abusive. What I said was the other times she has reccomended divorce were in cases of physical abuse. There was an instance a couple months ago where my H was very angry with me, and I was trying to get away from him by going in my daughter's room and locking the door. My daughter, who is not quite 3, was in there with me. My H busted through the door, breaking the door frame, and causing the door to hit my foot, cutting a nice bloody gash in it and at the very least bruising the bone. I did smack him in the face as he continued to come towards me. That stopped the incident. I did not call the police as I did not want our children to have to see what I knew would happen, and I did not want my H to get arrested. Plus, we live in a VERY small town. Our counselor said my H's outburst was definitely violent, but did not feel it was his intent for the door to hit me. I also asked her to not report it. My main concern was the our little daughter was standing right beside me and if she had been any closer, the door could have hit her. There have been other violent outbursts with things in the house getting broken and holes being put in walls, but he has not hit or touched me other than the time with the door. You can come to your own conclusion as to whether you think that is abusive. He has also never been physically abusive to our children. The concern is that they have seen these violent outbursts, and that in itself is damaging to them, I'm sure.

"I also asked her to not report it. "

.... nevertheless .... it is/was her professional obligation to report such an incident!

Pep,
Are you Damage_Inc?

Cherishing

No. She just copied that part. You can see Pep's words are in [color:"blue"]blue [/color]on her part in the first post .

Pep...unless the counsellor actually saw the gashed foot, it's impossible for her to know whether the incident actually happened. For all we know (and with apologies to Breaking Thread), she may have had reason to think the incident fictional or exaggerated. The person who should have reported the incident is Breaking Thread.


Breaking Thread, what about what the children had already witnessed? What does your failure to call the police tell the kids about bad behaviour, and your tolerance for it? That incident with the glass must have been horrifying for your small daughter. Would you really keep quiet about it because you 'live in a small town'?

TA

Hi TA,
Yes, the counselor did see my gashed foot. My H also admitted, somewhat, to doing it during a session with her. I say somewhat, because he has yet to take full responsibility for the incident (I "caused him to lose control"), and he makes the ridiculous claim that I "hit him in the head with both fists and about knocked him out," to the counselor, my mother, and who knows who else. Funny how I could hit him that hard, which I don't even think is possible seeing as I am 3 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter than him, but he wouldn't have the slightest mark on him. That just makes me feel even more that he isn't taking responsibility for his actions because he continues to try to transfer his bad behavior onto me. It also wasn't glass, it was a solid wood door and frame, and the edge of the door itself ran over my foot, cutting it open and injuring it.
As far as the kids are concerned, our daughter was the only one to witness the incident. OUr youngest son was 2 floors below in the basement, and our oldest son was at the grandparents' house, thankfully. As I said before, the town we live in is microscopic, and had I called the police, everyone would have known about it in a heartbeat,including all the kids' friends. That may seem like a superficial reason at first, but I did not want our children having their friendships affected by parents who don't want to let their kids come to our house. ANd yes, I did not want to the 2 kids at home to see their dad at best being told to leave the house by the police, and at worst being carted off in a police car. In a situation like this you have a very limited time period to make a decision. I choose to take the kids and go to my parent's house for a few days. Was it the right decision? I don't know. I do know that if any more acts of violence occur, I will call the police without hesitation. It's really hard to describe your thought processes in this sort of situation until you are in it. Even when my H behaves in this manner, I still have this urge to protect him, which I don't really understand. I know, though, that my first priority is to protect the kids from witnessing any more of this sort of behavior, and that is why the counselor is suggesting divorce is my best option at this point.

Just wanted to say I didn't post on this thread to debate my or my H's behavior, I just wanted to add some more details to the mix when it comes to why the MC , who, as I said before, counseled us together for almost 3 months before recommending my H see another therapist for IC, suggested I seek a divorce from my H.