This is my biggest question, how does a Woman show a Man affection or love without sex, without rejecting him sexually, without so many words, and how can she do it without giving him things? Which looks clingy and desperate?

Turning to physical affection gets a response pretty quickly and then my brain turns to pudding.

I actually, don't laugh, gave an expresso machine to a man I was dating and he thought it was weird and broke up with me a week later. Later my friends told me this was domestic and therefore clingy. I didn't know! I also don't know, like so many women do know, how to show affection and love without turning him on.

Men have it easy, they can buy flowers, pour wine, open doors, what do women do that's not domesticated?

Thanks,
Natalie

Compliment him

Most important thank him if he takes you on a date. We men love it when things go well and our women recognize that and thank us.

Sit close enough to him to touch shoulders.

If he kisses you, kiss him back.

Put your hand around his waist and into a rear pocket. Very nice.

Justin those are nice,thank you. But what if he gets turned on enough to to suggest making out? and when he is in front of people he knows and wants to show more affection? How do I back out of that gracefully without hurting his feelings and causing a scene? making out, or more touching usually lead to more later, if I am trying to show affection without making it sexual??

For most guys there is mentally a really short distance between showing affection and sex. So, unfortunately, if you wish to avoid sex, then the usual stuff like massages, and snuggling is out (until they are sexually satisfied, anyway).

But several things come to mind:
(1) Cook him a meal. (Chris Rock summarized men's needs as: sex, food, and to be left alone; crude but not too off the mark). Don't make it too ordinary (OK, so what is so special), or too extraordinary (if you spend 5 hrs on a meal and he just happens to be allergic to some weird spice you used, you'll resent it), just little above your average meal.

(2) Find out what he is good at that you are not, and get him to help you with it, especially if it is a masculine task (car, computer, finances, lift heavy things, etc.). Guys like to do things for women; it makes them feel good not only about the R with you, but makes them feel masculine.

(3) Find out what you are good at that he is not. Offer to help him out. Obviously it has to be done in a way that it does not look like you are criticizing him.

(4) If you want to really get close to a guy, and you really want him to think of you in serious terms, a good way of showing effection is to go with them through their closet and see what's there, and what's not. Then take him shopping. Guys hate shopping for clothes, have limited knowledge or interest in clothes, and love it when someone else can help them out; they instinctively trust women's opinion much more then some other guy. If you are really, really serious, you will find out his sizes (waist, color, sleeve length, etc.) and buy some stuff for him yourself.

BTW: Supplement their wardrobe, do not replace it. Do NOT EVER suggest that the old sweatshirt (or some other items that look decrepit) belongs in the garbage-- he loves that sweatshirt more then you'll ever know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You could bring him a bottle of wine, or make him a CD of all his favorite songs. Or some of your favs as well. Just not gushy love songs.

Hmm average guy these are true and I have thought of these but somehow they always turn out wrong.

The food thing is true but the dish I prepare is not good enough, or it's too boring. Such as pumpkin pie, I just make pumpkin and it's not exciting. Most of the men I date now in my thirties cook, and they are very critical of spices, preparation and the way the food looks on the plate.
I dated a man who was angry because I did not have any honey mustard-and so my sandwich was a disaster. I went to the store to get what he wanted, by the time I got back I forgot about the sandwich.

I once lost a guy I was dating to another woman who followed all of your instructions to the letter, she was a vegetarian and loved to cook interesting dishes-I watched her take him shopping and pick out the perfect sweater. I have no clue what the perfect sweater is. On him it was Burgundy lambswool. Should I be looking for a less traditional male? Or should I take cooking classes? My sister is equally clueless about food, she married a chef and he never lets her cook anything.

I have had good luck with asking my date to help me fix something very simple, and with decorating. Trouble is I don't like the way my home looks later. This seems to be the only point on the list I can relate to. As for offering help I am way too helpful already and that is seen as criticism.

Just last night I took a man I really care for shopping but we couldn't find any shirts-everything I picked out looked tacky and touristy to him. He said he has tons of sweaters already. We did buy him chocolates-we were with his son. He doesn't like to go anywhere without him.

Let me see, I took him shopping, I baked him a pie, we held hands, I told him I was charmed by him, that he smelled good, and that he had great taste. He was not very happy with me. He felt I was not as open to his suggestions while shopping as he would have liked to pick things out for me, buy me lingerie, feed me chocolates. He also complained at the end of the date that my body language was too timid, and that I was too charming, he didn't trust it. The last time we dated he bought me dinner, wine, and I tried to take him shopping that day too but instead he bought me a blouse. I felt he was a little exhausted so I tried to take him out this time.

I don't know about food average guy, I have bought my dates gourmet items, and fixed homemade food and nothing seems to make a dent. It seems to cause more problems when the food is seen as boring. What kind of food do men want? Not gourmet chocolates, pie, or coffees and teas..It's so much easier for men, they buy dinner, open doors.

it's so much harder to give a man food, and affection these days. I find baking pies all night exhausting.

And yes it's a VERY short distance from affection to sex. Do you think some men actually make the date more difficult in order to get the woman to say let's have sex already so you will finally be happy? It seems then the constant reassurance has to appear on both sides or else there is resentment.

Men were much easier in my twenties, any food was good, and reassurance was being there. Now the rules are so different.

Natalie

Natalie--

A couple of notes:

As far as food goes, I agree with your observations. Back in my twenties, food was low on my priority list: I'd like to eat anything. Thus, if GF knew or did not know how to cook was not really on my radar. I think that other guys are the same way. No, not a drastic change, but I do appreciate to eat a tasty meal more then I used to (I am still at 155 lbs, so it has nothing with my physique).

Moreover, if the guys you date cook for themselves, and they do it presumably better then when they were in their 20-ties, it is an even higher hurdle to traverse. I empathize.

Cooking classes? Maybe, or maybe just get a cookbook and learn a recipes from a books. And there is no reason why you could not just buy dinner and open the door as guys do (as you wrote).

What kind of food? I don't know, since everyone has different palate, but if I'd like (personal bias here) is something hearty rather than desserty. I agree that while my W (an presumably other women) would like gourmet chocolates, pie, or coffees and teas, I'd rather be looking forward to chicken cordon bleu, or steak, or swordfish and shrimp, or something like that. Don't know... just rambling....

Sorry I can't be of more help....

As far as his clothes go, you probably will not pick out better clothes then him for his "everyday" clothes. He most likely is comfortable with that, and would probably not want to change.

But he probably is not very comfortable picking out his dress up clothes. If he needs to go to an opera, or concert, or a social gathering at country club, client meetings off-site, or something like that. If he has been wearing business suits for 10 years he might be already be well set in his ways what he likes, but if he has started within a past couple of years in a job where he has to wear such suits, that might be the area to concentrate on. Suits/shirts/ties are relatively easy for women to pick out: look what nationwide newscasters, or Jay Leno/Dave Letterman are wearing.

Hats, gloves, scarves are relatively easy and cheap, and timely.

Don't know if I am helping or not....

The above are a few unrelated lines from your post, that demonstrate an interesting thread: people over 30 are likely harder to date, because they are more likely set in their ways. They have their way of doing things, have a better idea of what their food or house or clothes should look like, then when they were in their 20-ties.

Relax. Be more carefree. More flexible. Don't stress out about things; you didn't earlier in your life, right?

(No, I am not a psychologist, or a couple counselor, so I may be way off on this...)

I don't think so. Or I'd be very surprised if someone did that. I think that guys would try to get you into sack by being nice to you, or seducing you, or feeding you lines (either honestly or even dishonestly), rather than trying to make it difficult for you so that you'll give in.

That said though, I assume that you are not consciously or unconsciously avoiding being intimate with him. I assume that you are on some sort of a schedule (whatever that schedule is these days...), and not delaying it unnecessarily. There is a happy medium: a women who is too easy or too hard to get intimate with sets off warning bells in buys heads (just like other way around, I assume).

If you have dinners together in the dining room, and cook in the kitchen, and decorate the living room, but totally avoid the bedroom, he may be wondering what's going on. If you undress him so that he can try on the new clothes that you bought him, instead of taking it off completely in order to be intimate, he'll have the same doubts.

It is hard to tell if this is the case or not. But I think that his relatively harsh comments to you would be consistent with his mounting frustration on this issue, even if he does not vocalize it to you.

The way that I view it (I am sure that others will correct me on this), is that when a women waits too long in a relationship, then weird things start to float through a guy's head:
(1) is she afraid of intimacy? Does she have some emotional baggage which will interfere with future lovemaking? I want no part of that!
(2) what is wrong with me? Why does she not want me in bed with her? Am I doing something wrong? Am I not good enough for her?
(3) Is she purposefully delaying intimacy? Is it some sort of a power trip for her? If she does this now, how will it be when we are in a committed relationship?
(4) does she have zero or very low interest in sex? Will I be able to be happy in such a relationship?
If this is the case, then all the cooking, baking or clothes buying in the world will not have much impact on him.

You may want to post your ages, how long you have been dating him, to see what others think where you should be in the intimacy department.

Take care, Nat!

Interesting Question - with even more interesting responses.


That's funny. Not sure why that would cause a break-up; but whatever!



To answer your question:

1. Walking with her arm around mine has always been big to me.

2. A light touch on the arm while talking is also good.

3. Having a real interest in his life/career/hobbies is big for most men. (And of course; vice-versa!)

4. Saying; "Tonight's my treat" (occasionally) - when you go out.

Of course, everything else MUST result in sex!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Just kidding <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

FR

Take his arm while walking.

Several women have done this to me in the past and it always feels good and affectionate. It is not too forward, it does not imply availability for sex, it's a way a woman can touch a man in a proper way.

So what happened to your thoughts from yesterday?:


I think this poor "friend" guy of yours is in the ride of his life, and you just keep on leading him on and then wondering why he wants more? Do you really not understand?...

AGG

AGG, up until this weekend, my friend and I hadn't spent a day alone without his son, and we agreed because of his schedule and mine we ought to remain just friends. We talked this over again on the phone before I arrived. When we went out with this son, the night turned out more romantic than either of us planned, we both found ourselves wanting to spend time alone, to talk, and so I could tell without him saying anything he thought of the night as a date. I am not so insensitive to miss his change in moods or view the situation differently. BUT it's very hard to talk about sex and love with his 9yr old son, although he will bring up sex and love in general, he feels it's okay to do this in front of his son, and I don't.

For one thing, I am sure it frightens his son because he says things such as, Mommy makes good pies too, or Mommy smells good too, whenever my friend compliments me. My friend is in the middle of a bitter custody battle for his son but he tries not to talk about his anger towards his ex wife. I feel conflicted about my friend's availability right now but I know exactly how it feels to be in his position, without friends outside of work his self esteem is being dragged downwards. I feel I am more available to my friend than anyone as we are very similar in our values, and we have helped each other through a crisis many times.

While yes it hurts to be led on, and I have been there too, I really do want to see him. Some of us take years to get over our divorce, and he in particular has been in this battle for two years. In my experience I do not date well with men who are all about having something pretty in the house all the time, regardless of the future.

I feel that my friend and I help each other more than most, even though opening up to someone, like all change, is hard.

My friend is very stubborn and wants to be cynical but I believe he is one of those kinds of people who need happy moments on a regular basis, not just random opportunities. So he makes me feel significant in a nutshell.

When he talks about sex he is asking about not being alone, but in reality we can't live together right now-we can't communicate since he can't take time away from his son-and he can't call me at any other times than at work where he does not feel free to talk. I won't live with another man without getting to know him, his habits, everyday, and his values about me working are keeping me back. He says he does not want me to work if we live together ever, because he believes in general the woman should be more submissive than the man.

To me that holds me back for a good reason. My ex said the same thing and although pretended to like my work, secretly sabotaged things so I always made less money than him, he competed with me, and it brought us down. If my friend really believes that, then he will never be happy if he believes I am competing with him, and in his mind, he is very stubborn in his belief that I do not really have to work. Yet his custody battle drains him and he can't afford to do things he wants to do. The evidence says he can't support me, yet he refuses to give in on that point. I need stability right now, and he needs to understand although I care very much, I can't be his stability.

When a man usually says, I want to take care of you, he means, I want you to move in and take care of me, be my stability, financial and otherwise, I can't ignore that.

I can't contribute right now, and these conversations start off an argument which makes his son pretty uncomfortable. Then if I continue I am told I am starting an argument in front of his son, so I feel we are at a crossroads of communication. My point is that he has to call me more often and spend some time alone with me to talk about this, because I don't know his financial situation at all, and I don't want to get deeper into trusting him, and he trusting me financially.

For some reason I just get this feeling that he cannot be there for me financially and yet he insists on it.

This I can't explain, it's a shortcoming, that I can't see what he really means, and I can't get his complete trust. Sex without trust usually is not good.

Natalie

Salty,

Sex without trust and love is not good at all. If you don't trust him, don't have sex with him. Trust takes time....

To answer your question though on affection. For me, all it would take is for you to be physically close to me. In the vehicle when he is driving, lean towards him. If you sit by him somewhere, make sure you sit close enough that you are touching. If you are talking at a restruant reach over and touch his hand briefly while you are chatting. Little things like that are a good indicator that you are interested and doesn't mean you want to hop in the sack!

Keith

Natalie, I am sorry, but I just don't understand. Do you want him as a romantic partner or as a friend?

If you want to have a romantic relationship with him, then it is appropriate to show him the affection in a manner than I and other have written above. And it would also be appropriate at a particular time to have intimate relationship with him.

On the other hand, if you just want to be friends, then showing him such affection is highly inappropriate. Friends don't tell each other that they smell good, or hold hands, or say that they can't wait to see each other, or want to buy lingerie for each other. Do NOT lead him on.

You cannot have a relationship where your EN is being satisfied and his are not. If you want to remain friends then do not show him the kind of affection that is normally exhibited in a romantic relationship.

Undoubtedly this guy is very confused by your behavior. And he'll begin to resent it. And you'll lose him as both a lover or a friend.

BINGO!! I don't think this is a very hard concept to understand. And given salty's repeated threads about her overall confusion, her attempts to reconcile with her ex husband if only he would get his act together, and her decisions to NOT date, her actions with this "friend" are totally unfair.

Salty, you cannot walk around with a "friend", hold his hand, tell him he smells good, discuss sex, etc, and then get all surprised that he wants more. There are names for this kind of behavior, which I won't repeat here, but trust me, it is most men's worst nightmare to come across a woman who will lead them on like this but then act all innocent and naive once he becomes interested.

You have shown clearly on your other threads that you know the inappropriateness of doing this - and yet you keep on doing it. Obviously we can't make you stop, but what is the point of doing something that you know will have consequences and then acting surprised by those consequences??

AGG

AGG it maybe clear to you, but it's not clear to me. I have many questions unanswered about this situation that my friend does NOT help me with and I'm no psychic. I don't know why I told him those things, that he smelled good. It just popped out as he was standing close to me.

Forget reason, I mean he has told me in NO uncertain terms in an email and on the phone that he wants to be friends only. I refused to see him for several months until he was clear on this, because I do consider him significant in my life, and he asked me to be his friend. He said sex was not a big deal and not to get hung up on it, we could do lots of things.

So on that NOTE alone, I went to see him, I did not purposely go there to get satisifed in some way because if I was really teasing him, and I am not sure men understand this, I would be just as turned on as him, and it's uncomfortable. IN NO way is that old myth that women can turn their feelings on and off true. Without a doubt I have never met an actual live woman who could tease anyone unless it was by accident. There was once a TV show about women who teased which was very funny but not accurate. They showed a woman saying,I really want to be with you since you seem so affectionate, but I can't see you right now.

Women say these things because
A. They really do want to get affectionate, but not right now as in they have to go to bed to get to work on time.
B. They want to get affectionate but can't decide when, so they go to bed alone.

I have met many Men who tease and say
A. I really want a relationship, not a fling-but not right now because I cant' decide if I have enough to offer.
B. I really want a relationship with someone special but I don't know you well enough to know if you are the one
C. I really want a relationship with someone special so I am never alone because my dream is to be with you-but not right now.

And variations.

And after Sex, a man may say
A. So this is a fling right? You don't seem like relationship material.
B. Now that I know you I don't think we are ready for a relationship.

Now I know there are lines and so on and I am not saying I am perfect, in fact I am far from perfect and have many shortcomings. It's amazing that this man wants to consider being supportive and loving towards me and I am grateful.

However I am getting the clear picture that my friend doesn't have a clue about what he really wants except that he may or may not be thinking about sex constantly when I am around.

It's nice to believe otherwise because it makes me cynical to believe that's all he cares about. If he is that hurt and feels put out by my behaviour he could say something. It's not as if I don't call him every week to wish him luck on hs custody battle and offer support and encouragement.

He and I never talked about any kind of LTR-I did mention I wanted to live with a man if I got intimate again because I really want it to be a compatible long term relationship and men my age seem to play around way too much when they are dating. It's not a trust issue it's the kind of lifestyle I find attractive.

Although my friend agrees he has booked himself on European trips all this summer, and was never home for me to contact him-he hates being tied down after work-so getting through to him to spend time together was boring to him.

My biggest peeve with him is that like other friends, especially male, he gets angry when he finds out my schedule doesn't coordinate with his and find someone else to spend time with rather than letting me rearrange my schedule. That punishes me for working, and not being home waiting for his call-when he does call he wants to know why I can't drop what I am doing to talk and see him, when he hasn't called in weeks. it's arrogant and rude, and until he sees that he can't pursue a romantic relationship with me because then he would expect me to be available all weekend whenever he decided to call me on a Friday night-or NOT.

I have been in a dating relationship like that before and it's all about giving, there is not reward in the end because I am too resentful at blowing off my friends, who may or may not be there as I have to make my own life. While I like the idea of both of us bonding and being like family, I am not a small child with no agenda to take to ballgames, and family dinners-I am more than a placeholder-I am an adult female-most males over 40 seem to forget that, and frankly end up dating someone more submissive.

For that reason I have noticed many younger men in my workplace who are 22-24 dating older women and they both seem to be very happy. Their schedule is lighter and less complicated. Maybe people who always meant to date someone who is constantly available-so that one person, can always revolve their life around the other's emotional needs.

My friend is from Ireland and the men are more dominant than the women, but good providers, so it makes sense that he is this way.


To be honest I like intimacy as much as my friend and I do not get my ENS met by just him, but sex doesn't create instant intimacy or even trust. It doesn't change the fact that I have serious doubts about how to get to know this man better since he turned the other night into a date, and romance is a coverup for real conversation.

For one thing he drinks at least two glasses of wine everyday, which I have trouble accepting, and he has been more and more smoking pot, to where he has a section of the house just for it. I am too judgemental of men I know. I am only trying to clear up these issues so I can know him. If he is not interested in communicating with me outside of dating for sex, then he needs to let me know what.

I had this conversation with him the other night and left, but he didn't call or communicate at the time except to say that he was fine with being friends but if we were to date then he would expect me to be honest about whether or not I liked sex-because too many women these days put restrictions on sex. I had to get mad because what woman is he talking about? His ex? What does that have to do with us? If we were a couple it's our needs that get met, and for us. Plus he hasn't had sex for two years, wasn't being alone all that time psychologically terrifying enough to risk me?

He said sometimes you just aren't good enough, and I said that's true I can't be everything to everybody but I am dead tired from trying. I said, I get scared because my ex said that all the time too, it's not good enough and you are to blame, he just woke up one day and thought this isn't good enough for me, there is nothing you can do. And all the sex and affection in the world didn't change that.

I said we weren't on a date until I got there because I came down to talk-romance isn't everything unless you really care about someone. I told him I didn't really think his feelings were that deep for me at all as he didn't call me half the summer and he seemed surprised. As for liking sex or not, it's not his place to put demands on me as to the kind of sex he wants because any sex is good enough for me, I DO NOt get my ENS met by any man who specifies exactly what he wants me to do for HIM physically before he has addressed anything real between us. Who expects sex to be the solution to every problem and who thinks my emotions are going to be calmer and easier to deal with AFTER sex.

Just the opposite, if I am manipulated into sex, I am very detached and cold in the morning especially if my feelings are not considered important in the relationship.

A relationship is TWO people I told him, it includes me and you, not your son. I can't consider having sex with someone in front of a nine year old boy, or even in the next room because I suspect his sudden desire to talk about sex has more to do with his son being there and scoring points with the ex who will hear about it, more than a genuine attraction to my body.

He needs to prove to me that it's not about a score to settle and that he really wants to be alone with me. He has to be on my side, not provoking me to get a reaction so I blow up and need reassurance. I will not have sex with someone or "make out" with a nine year old in the room, I just don't like it at all.

And no I don't know what we will do in the future because I feel that even with children a couple ought to spend time alone together especially at the start. the man barely has time outside of work for holidays, I don't see how he is making it a priority in his life to bond with someone new, for a long term relationship. And I do have experience with children having raised a stepson.

I know deep down without a doubt that for a relationship to work there has to be undivided attention right at the start-without it, there is no respect or reason to continue-because then it's friends with benefits:<

Consider what I say as bad or good, but at least I am honest with him and communicate my genuine feelings-and I am experienced enough to know that friends with benefits is not a trusting relationship.

After I told him all of this, he said he didn't want to talk about it anymore-no surprise and I could leave if that's what I wanted. I know I should have stayed but I was dead tired and just wanted to sleep. He had offered the couch earlier in the day but I didn't feel it was right as if did stay on the couch so I could "sleep", we would do nothing but talk all night and at that point I was exhausted.

At one point he sympathized with my quality of life and said I needed more sleep, which just got me angry because if he had not provoked the reaction in me I would not need to spend the night in the first place.

so NOW I know, but I am not perfet and had no idea how to make him happy without throwing my arms around him as soon as I walked in the door so I was unsure of how to show I liked him other than bringing him a stupid pie. Which by the way he was completely disinterested in.


Natalie

Natalie,
Nothing in your previos message strikes me as unreasonable on your part. Also, his drinking 2 glasses of wine a day AND smoking more and more pot is a warning sign right there.

You are not going to remake this guy. He is who he is.

Maybe it's time to look elsewhere for a man more your type.

Hmmmm. Dating is expensive. I used to always invite the man over for a meal. Also I haven't met a man yet who didn't enjoy being wined and dined at a good restauarant. In fact, I had several tell me that it was the first time a female treated them.

I also let friends and workmates know that I was looking for football tickets. Sometimes people have season tickets and will sell a few. Be sure to bring the food for the tailgate party.