Hi all, it's been a long time since I posted. My divorce is almost final and I have a few questions.

My STBXW is asking for alimony and for me to pay her COBRA insurance and attorney fees. If that ends up being the case I will be bringing home after taxes about 32% of my paycheck and will not be able to support myself. Is there a limit on how much can be taken from me?

My paycheck after taxes 100%
minus child support leaves me with 58% of my paycheck left over.
minus the proposed alimony leaves me with 47% of my paycheck left over.
minus COBRA insurance leaves me with 32.5% of my paycheck left over.

Is there a limit somewhere? Can my STBXW take 68% of my paycheck from me? Will a judge allow that?

I have court tomorrow and will see my attorney to discuss it with him, but wanted to know any opinions before I find out more tomorrow.

I would have less than $1000 a month to live on and it's just not possible to pay utilities, rent, groceries and incidental expenses. I also find it comical that she tells me that she is not after money when everything she and her attorney have done is to get me to live in a cardboard box. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She doesn't care about the children at all. All she cares about is her money and what she feels she is "entitled to". Oh yeah, she is also asking for me to have her listed as the benificiary of my life insurance so she would still get her child support, alimony, and COBRA paid for in the event I come to an untimely death. I would be worried about being "bumped off" should that happen. It is MY life insurance and I should be able to make anyone I want the benificiary. What if I should meet someone and get re-married? My life insurance would go to my XW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The really funny thing is she feels "entitled to" all this stuff and we wouldn't even be divorcing if she would not have had an affair, or at least would have ended it. I guess she is looking for me to support she and her BF since he apparently can't.

Can my STBXW take 68% of my paycheck from me?
Seems like a lot and I don't know.
However, your ex is not "taking" 68% of your paycheck. Looks like you are giving 42% to raise your children.

Why so much (what state)?

What does your attorney say about the likelihood she will get what she is asking?

Here in Pennsylvania it's based on a percentage system. They take each others incomes and expenses and determine what percentage each was able to contribute to the household when the couple were living together and then use that to determine alimony. Combined child support and alimony we take about 40% of his monthly income. I was a SAHM with a part time job of 10 hours a week and he has a full time job and a part time job. Also I'll only be on his insurance until the divorce is final and I believe he's already changed his life insurance policy. I've never asked so I don't know that for sure. I do know I'm entitled to half of his 401K and profit sharing but it's yet to be determined if I will push that issue. We are just trying to get the custody of our daughter straightened out first before any of the divorce crap gets taken care of.

Hope this helps a little. Every case is different and your attorney will tell you that.

Good Luck!

Yeah, that part I don't mind. I really don't mind paying to support my children. Where I have a problem is my STBXW wants alimony, and for me to pay her COBRA insurance. If that happens I will be homeless. There will be no way possible that I would be able to pay for a place to live and the utilities and such that go along with it. I was wondering if there is some legal limit that they can take from me. I have court tomorrow morning and will talk to my attorney about it then. I was just hoping that some of you folks here would know the answer.

I live in Michigan

My attorney tells me I shouldn't have to pay alimony since she was the one who had the affair, but I will believe that when it happens. Nothing would surprise me at all.

It sounds like you live in a fault divorce state. You are wise to not get your hopes up because the unexpected could happen. Let us know what happens in court.

TMCM

No, it's a no fault state, but my attorney said that alimony can be affected because of her affair. We'll see.

http://www.childcustody.net/47.html

Alimony In Michigan

Probably the least understood aspect of divorce is the concept of alimony. Alimony, in Michigan, means "fairness", and whether or not most litigants would agree with me (they won't), the judge is trying to be "fair" to both parties when he makes, or refuses to make, an alimony award.

A divorce court has the discretion to award alimony as it considers just and reasonable. That language is from the state statute (MCL 552.23; MSA 25.103), and should not be read as a requirement, or that alimony is somehow mandatory. It certainly is not. There are certain factors that the judge is obligated to consider, when deciding whether to make an alimony award. These include the length of the marriage, the parties' ability to pay, their past relations and conduct, their ages, needs, ability to work, health, and fault, if any, and all other circumstances of the case. That's right "all other circumstances of the case", which, of course, will be different every time, won't they?

The alimony issue has two questions, which are related, but they are different: the first question must be "Is alimony appropriate, or fair, in this case?" The judge will decide based on the factors above, and then the second question MAY need to be answered, "How much, for how long?"

"The main objective of alimony is to balance the incomes and needs of the parties in a way that would not impoverish either party" said one Court of Appeals case (Hanaway, 1995), and that doesn't mean strict mathematical balance, but it does mean that, in appropriate cases, the parties' respective incomes will be brought more into line with each other, taking into account (always) the nine factors recited above. Those nine factors (eight, really, since the ninth one is "all other circumstances") add up to a few generalizations which might be helpful to your understanding of alimony:

The longer the marriage, the greater likelihood of alimony, and in larger amounts, for a longer time. You would think that this is self-evident, but it is not. I occasionally get inquiries from folks who have been married for two or three years, asking about alimony. There isn't going to be any alimony ordered at the end of a three year marriage. I also occasionally get inquiry from a husband, who intends to leave his wife of twenty five years for a cheerleader from the local college, who wants to know "If I give Wife the house, can I get out of paying alimony?" No, you can't. Not if she needs the money.

The question of alimony is separate from property division. First, the judge will divide the property of the parties, trying to be fair to each person, and then the judge will examine whether or not one party needs to have their income boosted. From the other party's income, not from the other party's assets. On one hand, an executive from a large corporation can expect (since he's making $200,000 per year) to be paying a large chunk of next year's salary as alimony, in spite of the fact that Wife received half a million bucks in real estate, her half of the marital property. She won't be forced to sell her property to meet living expenses, in that situation. On the other hand, assume a General Motors retiree, same age as the first example, same number of years married. The judge will divide up the property, and we already know that the GM pension gets divided up as marital property, so Wife is going to get her pro-rata share of it. This fellow has no left over income to divide, does he? The available income ($1200 a month, from GM) is in the pension, and now each of them is getting six hundred dollars a month, separately, and no additional alimony will be awarded. Looking at the factors, there is no ability to pay, and Wife has no need: she's getting the same monthly income that the retired Husband is getting.

So here's another generalization: Rich people pay more, and get more, alimony than poor people do. This should also be obvious. It's the "ability to pay" factor, isn't it?

There is another truism regarding alimony that you should be aware of: alimony is disappearing. It's fading fast. Judges are less and less likely to award alimony, or to continue it for as long as was true in the past. This is, for the most part, just a reflection on our changing society, and the role of women, for it was typically true that it was the wife who was getting the alimony. In the old days, when women didn't work, the need for alimony was greater. Today, women are expected to go get a job, especially if there are no children, or if the children are grown, and out of the home. A woman, in the old days, might receive permanent alimony, which meant that she had the income until she died or remarried, but that award is quite rare now. It's still available, if Wife can show that she's not employable, or marginally so, and can show that she's never, or hardly ever, worked, during the thirty years of marriage, and she may even have health problems. But a woman getting divorced today, even in her forties, will be far more likely to receive rehabilitative alimony, which is to say, alimony for a shorter period of time, maybe the three years it takes for her to finish her degree, and maybe a year or two longer, to help her get on her feet, but after that, no alimony. Four or five years is all you get, good luck with the new job, dear.

Alimony in gross is alimony that is fixed in amount. It may be fixed in duration (one hundred dollars a week for two years) or it may be fixed in dollar amount (one hundred dollars a week until the sum of five thousand dollars is paid). This can be attractive because generally, alimony is deductible from income for tax purposes, if you're paying the alimony, and conversely, alimony is taxable income to the recipient. This is not true of monies paid for property settlement. Occasionally, parties that are, say, ten thousand dollars apart but looking to settle, may not be that far apart if the payor gets to deduct that ten thousand, when it's paid, for tax purposes. Your lawyer will know when alimony, and what kind of alimony, is deductible, so be sure to ask.

http://www.divorcenet.com/states/michigan/michigan_alimony_factors

How is spousal support (alimony) determined?

Spousal support is not part of the property settlement; it is a separate consideration. The goal of spousal support is to balance the incomes and needs of the parties in a way that will not impoverish either party. The courts consider a number of factors in deciding whether or not to award spousal support, and must make findings on each factor that is relevant to the claim before it.

The factors are:

Past Relations and Conduct of the Parties: The conduct or “fault” of the party during the marriage (such as infidelity or substance abuse) will be considered in deciding on spousal support, even though Michigan is a no-fault divorce state;

Length of the Marriage: Long-term marriages are especially relevant where one spouse has no career or marketable skills and will likely have to endure a lower standard of living as a result of the divorce.

Ability to Work: Courts have ruled that a temporary award of spousal support is unfair where there is serious doubt about a spouse's ability to fully support himself or herself after an award of temporary spousal support has expired.

Source and Amount of Property Awarded: The focus here is on the earning potential of the assets (not their overall value), especially when both parties have substantial assets and there is a large disparity in their respective incomes. A party should not have to dissipate their property award in order to support himself or herself.

Ages of the Parties: This factor is especially relevant to the party's ability to support himself or herself.

Ability to Pay: The financial situation of the parties and the money needed for their support must be considered. The ability to pay spousal support includes the unexercised ability to earn where one spouse intentionally reduces income to avoid paying support. The interest is in protecting the dependent spouse from poverty as a result of the other spouse's spite or avoidance of responsibility.

Present Situation of the Parties: Looks at the effect of different factors on present ability to pay and the present or anticipated needs of the spouse seeking support.

The Needs of the Parties: The court must evaluate the combined effect of various factors on present of future needs of the spouse seeking support.

Health of the Parties: Health is relevant to the ability to work and personal needs of the spouse seeking support.

Prior Standard of Living: Spousal support should be granted to ensure that a spouse is not deprived of their right to support at a level commensurate with what they would have enjoyed had the marriage survived.

General Principles of Equity: Courts apply a balancing test to determine the fairness of a spousal support award, looking at the amount needed and the amount the paying spouse could reasonably afford, the amount of both parties' incomes, and the ability of each party to ensure that neither party will be impoverished in the process.

How long will I receive spousal support if it is rewarded?

Courts look at factors such as:

Duration of the marriage;

The parties' contributions to the marital estate;

Parties' ages;

Parties' health;

Parties' station in life;

Parties' necessities and circumstances; and

Respective earning abilities.

Can spousal support payments be modified?

Michigan law creates the right to modify spousal support. But like many rights, this right can be waived. To do so, the divorce judgment must specifically provide that the spousal support provision is binding and nonmodifiable.
This applies only to consent judgments (where the parties have negotiated their own settlement terms), and not to alimony provisions of a judgment by the court after a trial. Where spousal support is modifiable, the basis for the request is that there has been a change of circumstances, and the party making the request carries the burden of proving there has been a change. They may show such things as loss of home, high cost of repairs/maintenance of replacement home, legal expenses incurred in attempt to enforce child support obligations, and other extraordinary circumstances.

What are the grounds for termination of spousal support?

Remarriage: This of itself is insufficient to terminate spousal support, unless it is specifically provided for in the judgment.

Cohabitation: This is also insufficient reason to terminate spousal support unless the judgment specifically provides for it.

Fraud, Duress, and Mutual Mistake: These are the only grounds for setting aside a consent judgment of support (unilateral mistake, or mistake on the part of only one party, is not enough).

Change in Ability to Pay: (example: when the payer retires) This is relevant to determining an increase or decrease in spousal support, but is not the sole criterion. The change of circumstances justifying termination must result in diminished income, not just income from a different source or in a different form.

Alimony in Gross: Unlike permanent spousal support, is not modifiable except for fraud, mistake, excusable neglect or other grounds for relief from judgment as provided in MCR 2.612(C).

I have a friend who is dating a guy that works for G.M. His ex-wife was a stay at home mother, and they had four daughters. The ex-wife had multiple affairs. (No fault State). The wife got alimony for 3 years, the house, a vehicle, 1/2 medical costs covered, and child support. He was lucky to clear $25.00 some weeks, and i'm not exaggerating!

I have known some men to say that they will quit their jobs because they'll end up with so little money anyhow.

What a mess!

There is something desperatly wrong with the system when this happens. Here is an interesting article
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/phyllisschlafly/2005/05/09/15364.html

Just to present the other side here in the "war of the sexes": I got diagnosed with breast cancer and my WH had an A with a married employee 28 years younger than I am. To make a long story short, he hasn't worked in the 5 years since he moved in with her, and as far as I know, neither has she. I send him a check every two weeks as part of his final settlement for our business, which he left me to run alone, and the property that goes with it. The family house has already been sold and he's gotten his 1/2 and bought himself and MOW a house while I'm living in a travel trailer, running our company, and supporting them. He and his lawyer are still demanding spousal support and attorney's fees. My WH lost his professional license after he left, as well as his driver's license, because of his substance abuse and is claiming to be disabled. As my lawyer said in a massive understatement, divorce isn't fair to anyone.

Well, court went like expected. Nothing happened but the final date was delayed.

My attorney says that the judge can make me pay any amount but will look at trying to be fair. Most likely he won't make me pay all that my STBXW is asking, but he may make me pay some.

As for alimony, my attorney thinks I shouldn't have to pay it. He says the fact that she has had a job during most of our marriage, she is working now, living with her mother and she had the affair should help me out. She is getting 42% of my paycheck in child support and as it is with her working (even though part time) we are living on basically the same amount per month (but she doesn't have a mortgage or rent and utilities). The judge, as mentioned above, has to use a "fairness" meter. He won't make me pay more than will allow me to support myself and survive.

I just find it amazing how divorce changes people. My STBXW said while my brother went through his D that my brothers XW was greedy, all she cared about was money etc., etc., etc. Well, now that we are going through a D she keeps saying how she is not like my brother's XW since she is only asking for what she is "entitled to". The funny thing though is she is asking for way more than she is "entitled to".

• She is asking for me to basically leave her as the benificiary of my life insurance so should something happen she still gets her $money$ (read greedy). (I am told it's my life insurance and I can make whoever I want the beneficiary.)
• She wants half of my retirement, when she is only entitled to half of what I have accrued at this point, which is 40%. This would leave her with 20% of my retirement, not 50% as she is asking for (read greedy)
• she wants me to pay her COBRA insurance permiums
• she wants me to pay her attorney fees
• We have a RMA account with stocks and such valued at around $15,000. She wants half that, when most of it was a gift from my parents and most of it was given to me prior to my marriage

Basiclly she wants me to pay for everything and support her even after the "D". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But she thinks that she is not being greedy. Maybe the BF in his parents basement can't afford to support her so she wants me to support the two of them and my children. I guess it's some kind of fog still. It's still my fault we are divorcing when she left me no choice but to divorce her. She had an ongoing affair and expected me to accept her relationship with this man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Oh yea, one more thing. My attorney tells me that the cheapest way out that would benefit both of us (sort of) would be to agree to a legal separation for two years while she went back to collage, got her degree and was able to get a job of her own that would give her benefits. That way she could stay on my insurance. Of course, he said that depends on her plans. If she plans on marrying this OM then she wouldn't want to do this because she couldn't. I don't know what her plans are with him and don't care really. I just have a few issues with this plan, because

• I want this over with
• As greedy as she is, she will want half of what I aquire over the next couple years (retirement, stocks etc.)
• she probably expect me to pay for her schooling and books and everything under the sun.

FYI, the insurance request is a typical one. Each parent should have insurance (payable to the other parent or to a trust for the benefit of the children). So demand that she get an insurance policy for the same amount payable to you upon her death.
The COBRA is unusual. If she were a fulltime student, she'd be eligible for health insurance at the college, and it is far cheaper than COBRA.
And the retirement or other money is typically split as 50% of what was accumulated during the M, not what is "accrued". The same goes for money from other sources put into a joint account.
If you had prior money in an account,get the old bank statements to prove it.

BMBO I think you have alot of misplaced anger going on. You are harping on your STBXW for being greedy, but you do have to realize it is expensive to raise children on your own, as I have learned myself as a newly single mom. And how many children is she raising? It sounds like it may be more than one. This money is going to ensure that your child/children can grow up comfortably. As for your life insurance, maybe she wants to be secure that she can continue providing the continued lifestyle for the kids in the event you were to pass away. You also stated that she is living with her mother currently. I think the judge would have to assume that this is only a temporary arrangement, and that she will be looking to have a place of her own some day. So then she too would have the same rent and utilities to pay like you do. Your incomes will likely not be 50/50 (with all of her support added in) because she will have to provide for herself and the children, and you just for yourself, so she is obviously going to require more "living expenses". Blackrio posted a excellent article in this thread about the dynamics of alimony, with alot of factors going into why it is rewarded, such as length of the marriage, behavior of both parties, and the parties earning abilities. I just think you need to look at this from another prespective, as it sounds like anger may be fogging rational thinking. This scenerio sounds eerily familiar to my own, as my XHB was so angry about the money that he lost focus on why it was important for his children's bennifit and not necessarily my own. Calling her greedy is a bit ironic when it sounds like you may be the greedy one from someone elses perspective; just a thought to ponder.

I have been through a similar situation where my exW got greedy and wanted more than she deserved. The insurance is not too unreasonable, but what is unreasonable is for her to be beneficiary. My exW tried this on me and we compromised to making the kids the beneficary and my parents executors. I would be prepared to show the judge what has accumulated since you were married in your retirement. Also gifts to a person are usually the property of the person. If your parents in fact gave the stocks to you and to the both of you, you should have the data to back it up. Don't go into to court without documentation. Show statements, etc. As far as the COBRA goes, it is also not uncommon for the dad to pay for the childrens insurance. As far as her insurance, too bad for her. A would also say the same about the attorney fees, especially since she had the affair. BTW be prepared with concrete evidence of an affair, letters, documents, phone bills, emails, etc. Speculations usually doesn't cut it because she can deny it. Also I would say be prepared for your W to make false accusations about you. This of anything that you may have done that could possible be turned around on you.

BMBO,

I'm not surprised by the outcome either...it's all a waiting game...but like dlw said...document everything. Beneficiary to YOUR life insurance is bull...I would name your children. Certainly not her! I would absolutely ask for YOUR legal fees to be paid seeing how she had the affair. She's thinking just because she is female that everything is going to be handed to her and it doesn't happen like that very often anymore. See if your parents have documentation for the money they have given YOU.

Stand your ground!

Good Luck!!

I gotta ask - are you my STBXW? That's exactly the type of answer I'd expect from her.

I don't have a problem paying child support. I am angry that she is out to punish me and we wouldn't even be getting a D if she had ended her affair. She has told me several times that she "wants to hit me where it hurts, right in the pocket book". She is living with her mom and can very easily manage on the child support I am paying her as she has no other bills (rent/mortgage, utilities, day care etc. She does help with groceries). I understand that the money is going to ensure that our children can grow up comfortably, but what about when they come visit me? If she gets all she is asking for I won't be able to live comfortably. That's what I am getting at. You sound like you are saying "it's alright that you won't be able to survive because she and your kids will be able to live comfortably."

Sure she wants to get a place of her own someday, but I'd like to get a place of my own someday. Until then I don't have the luxery to move in with my mom and dad like she has. Divorce brings changes for everyone and we all have to adjust. What has she done? She went out and purchased a brand new $25,000 vehicle. Her van was in poor shape so I understand her need for more reliable transportation. Perhaps had she purchased a slightly used vehicle she would have saved herself $15,000 and still had a very reliable vehicle. I think she would like to see her children visit their father who is living out of his car because he is paying for every expense of mommy's It's frustrating to see divorced mothers spending money on things because they all of the sudden have a surplus.

Settlle down, I am not your wife, so you don't have to be angry at me too. It is that there are two sides to every story, and sometimes people need perspective. I know it can be easy to get tunnel vision and think every action of your spouse has bad intentions. I have learned the hard way that we both needed to be adults and try to coexits for the bennifit of everyone. Alimony is not going to be very much money, just ask a few people who have had to pay it. As a long time lurker here to this site, I know that alot of people here tend to get over-dramatic and get fueled by other people who have been scorned too. I am hoping you can see that my post is offering a different perspective to the usual and can actually be a help.

I asked if you were my STBXW because you registered today, and your first post was in my thread and you said you were divorced. I found it odd that you would pick my thread to "come out" of lukerdom so to speak. It would seem to me you would have posted while you were going through your divorce or dealing with your marital issues that's all.

Like I mentioned above. The only thing that angers me is that I feel she is trying to punish me in any way she can. I guess, mainly because she always used to talk about my brother's XW in a negative light for the things she has done and now she is doing the same things. Then again, I understand, cause if I were in her shoes I guess I would try and get everything I could too. I mean why not? The more she gets the easier life she will have. She shouldn't worry about me. Why should she care if I am living in a cardboard box? She shouldn't. I also don't want my children to live in poverty. I have no problems paying $1400 a month in child support. I am just trying to stop the bleeding so to speak. I feel she is trying to take what she can get and I am just trying to keep it under control.

BMBO