Harley says that you can tell if the questions were not answered with honesty and candor by looking at how you go about resolving conflicts (with your spouse ... not conflicts with the phone company ... LOL)

Buyers Renters and Freeloaders have very distinctive approaches to solving problems in a romantic relationship.

RENTERS .... either give in or fight over problems

FREELOADERS ... tend to ignore problems

BUYERS ... negotiate toward win-win solutions

if your test results conflict with your problem-solving style, you know your answers have not been completely honest

Harley says this (and I just love this)

[color:"red"]"Honesty tends to make our behavior more thoughtful. If we knew that everything we say and do would be televised and reviewed by all our friends, we would be far less likely to do many of the thoughtless things we do. We tend to be thoughtless when we assume our behavior will go undetected." [/color]

.... such a great idea to apply to our marriages ... assume our spouse can hear and see everything we do .... and behave accordingly.

Ahhhhhh... but what happens when you have a conflict-avoidant spouse who interprets any attempt at negotiation as fighting?

I think it requires a certain amount of faith in the other party's honest intent to negotiate towards mutually pleasing ends. Because honestly, I've personally gotten burned when "negotiations" turned out to be "I'm going to pressure and manipulate and verbally spar with you till you not only agree to do what I want, but say it's what you want too."

If the aim is "win/lose" for either party, then "negotiation" becomes "aggressive negotiations." Whether you use a lightsaber or even just a smarmy tone of voice.

This book says you cannot negotiate with a spouse who has an addiction.

This is copied from thread one about this book:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=13&vc=1

[color:"blue"]Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit." [/color]

Is conflict-avoidance an addiction? And better yet, does the book mean you can't negotiate in any way about any thing with a spouse in any stage of any addiction?

I'm really not being facetious. I'm asking because we have gradually gotten better and better at negotiating for win-wins in our relationship, over the last four years.

The first stage of recovery, the biggest obstacle to negotiation was my lack of trust in his intent to keep his commitments and his honesty about what he wanted and what he would do.

In the later parts of recovery he had developed a pretty good track record for keeping commitments and honesty (although not perfect, his track record was vastly, exponentially improved over what it was.) [color:"brown"] Edited after reading your cross-post): Our early problems with POJA centered around him behaving in objectionable ways after supposedly negotiating. Like the book excerpt describes. What I was referring to was one or both people being hesitant to even enter into a negotiation because they DO intend to keep whatever commitments they agree to, but are afraid of being bullied into agreeing to something they don't honestly want.[/color]


At that point, the bigger obstacle to negotiation was his lack of trust in ME to genuinely negotiate towards a mutually desirable end. A couple of times, what started out as "negotiation" ended with him calling me out, saying basically that I didn't just want to get what I wanted, I wanted him to agree that it was what he wanted, whether he did or not. I wanted to make his opinion or preference "wrong," verbally show him the error of his ways, and "convert" him to my opinion.

That was one of the most painful conversations we ever had, because the truth is, he was right. And I knew he was right. I was Orual in front of the mirror THAT moment, I'll tell you. He called me out for it right as I was doing it. But you know, it changed me. Not instantly, obviously. But it made me aware of a shadowy bad habit I had which I never saw in myself before. And our negotiations have gotten progressively better and more satisfactory since then. [/color] [color:"brown"] [/color]

Okay, I am very shocked at this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />....My H took the test...and is a "Buyer" too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />....I was really beginning to wonder.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Him
Buyer - 8
Renter - 3
Freeloader - 1

He is happy to know we are compatible.

At least we have the same marriage values, not that he always follows them all the time or anything.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lady

JP ... have you read the first thread?

Yes, but I've slept since then.

But I think what you are getting at, is the idea that you can't negotiate an addict out of their addiction, or any elements of the lifestyle and choices that enable it to continue? Which I would agree with quite wholeheartedly.

But if you're referring to something else, I'll require clarification. And more coffee.

This book says you cannot negotiate with a spouse who has an addiction.

Speaking from experience....this is true. WS's included!
You can't negotiate with someone that is "out of their mind"
on a drug addiction, sex addiction, or an A addiction.

Lady

I think I could honestly only answer the way I know I WANT my M to be and not how it is. I do believe in my heart I am a buyer but cannot truly be one in the midst of a D and an H that insists on CA, lying etc... to get by.

I would hate to know my results to this test during my A....the answers would have been VERY different <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dorry, my H said the same thing. He admitted he "used" to be a freeloader.

He was only a cheating freeloader one time this year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lady

FF,

You said
FF, Harley is NOT saying you have plunk down good money for a shack with no roof. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

PS: Upon reflection you might have to if you live in California. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LOL, I do live in California and it is oh so true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

if I am being bullied into something I don't honestly want ... I am being dishonest.

RADICAL honesty is one of the requirements for POJA ...

Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

That's why Westward Expansion is reversing itself. I read an article somewhere saying that people were moving OUT of California to the Midwest and South because the housing costs in Cali are just so ridiculous, that even considering the drastically lower wage scale elsewhere, people who are killing themselves in California to make the payments on a three bedroom fixer-upper can move east and afford their dream home.

It's official, folks. Economically speaking, California is all full up. No vacancy.

I think Guideline 2 is where we were falling on our faces, as the bolded section is pretty much a good description of BOTH of us much of the time. Not really sure exactly what we want and not really sure exactly what we are enthusiastically willing to give. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well, if I consider it a moment, it's mostly him who has a hard time figuring out what he wants, and mostly me who has a hard time figuring out what I am enthusiastically willing to give. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Of course the last sentence there cracked me up. Hello, my name is JavaPrincess, and I am a FixingOtherPeople Addict. I am capable of quite cheerfully, pleasantly and without getting angry explain to Clark why he is wrong and why he really wants what I wants. All day long if need be. With flawless logic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I am mo better about that now. I think.

sharing with you something I learned along the way during recovery ... you said,



...once I became aware that I was in the habit of doing this, it took me awhile to stop the behavior. Mostly, at first, I had to apologize for the behavior. Gradually I'd catch myself ~during~ the behavior, and stopped right there and did an immediate apology. Later, I got pretty darn good at NOT doing the behavior. AND .... this is the part I want you to know, for awhile, my H reacted to me ~as if~ I was still doing the behavior when I had controlled myself.

H had to learn to tell the diference between my expressing my opinion and my telling him his opinion was wrong. See what I mean? H had developed a counter-habit of assuming my opinion meant he was wrong.

It took some good natured bilateral mea culpa moments to straighten things out ... and, of course, tincture of time.

Pepperband: Thank you so much for that description of the process. That is extremely helpful to me. In my case, sometimes I catch myself after the fact and apologize, sometimes I catch myself during and stop, apologize and resume the conversation without the "agenda" to change his mind, and yes, often he reacts ~as if~ I am still doing the behavior when I'm not.

One other thing I do is speak a lot less since I've been working on this. I was so fast and practiced at "verbal ninjitsu" that I really need a moment of interrupt in some conversations, on some subjects, to deliberately respond appropriately. H finds this a bit unnerving. He's used to being on the other end of the "waiting for your partner to think over and frame a response" stick, and his natural inclination is to mentally fill the space with the negative things I'm ~probably~ thinking about him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

We're both working on both having better intentions towards each other, and trusting each other's intentions, in conversation.

I also have a bad habit of reacting defensively when I legitimately screw up, instead of simply and sincerely apologizing.

I'm learning in both issues, the value of keeping my mouth shut a moment and thinking about what is really going on and what I really intend to say before just letting fly with my instinctive rejoinders. Part of the problem is, I enjoy verbal sparring, and I'm good at it. I've elevated what started out in my life as a defense tactic into a fine art form, LOL. Working on it! Working on it!

I'm finding that intentions and instinct will take you two TOTALLY different places depending on who you let drive the car. But that is a threadjack.


We've had a few of those as well. And time marches on.

Thanks again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

go ahead ... it's interesting.

Well, this was a well-timed discussion. I've found myself in two different conversations, one online and one IRL, today, which were a big mish-mash of accusations, interpretations, dueling opinions and emotional reactions. The real life one I caught myself in mid-sentence reacting defensively and instinctively from a sense of being attacked, realized "Um, I actually did screw up. I should apologize."

And I did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to pursue that threadjack, but it will have to wait a bit.