Awww common AG let a girl make a generalisation why dont you after all you know all women 'twist things ' lol

Ouch. What she heard was: "You are fat. But it's OK."

Just say: "you are beautiful." "You are gorgeous." "I worship you." etc.

Do NOT put any qualifications. Do NOT add something like "...today", because she'll wonder if there was something wrong last year, or if there will be problem next year.

Do NOT add that it is a point of view, such as "You look beautiful to me", because she'll think that you think that she is beautiful but not that she IS beautiful.

Sorry, the best way is just to repeat how she is beautiful without taking anything away. Please do NOT use logic.

Yikes AG....nobody is challenging your sexual orientation....don't be homophobic. Guys DO look....maybe not directly or noticeable....but humans are curious creatures. Everybody....compares body parts. The web has a bunch of sites just to help you guys do it....with measurements, pictures etc. Why? Because men worry about it. We all end up in sitches where there is some nudity and without gawking or being homosexual...some comparisons are made...bathrooms, locker rooms, beaches etc. At the very least....men are exposed to penis size while they watch pornography....you might not be interested in the organ, but while you're watching the performance, your mind still registers some basic information. Tell the truth and shame the devil AG! I bet you know what range you're in....that info came from somewhere!

I don’t go around looking at guys bodies, but once in a while (say, once a week or once a month), if a guy has a particularly good looking body (say, 1% of the male population) I do notice it. His muscle tone, posture, etc. “Wow, I wish I could have the stamina to work out as much as he does so that I can bench press over 200 lb like he does.”

But looking at a guy’s penis tells me nothing. Just perhaps if he is circumcised. That’s it. Unlike with women’s breasts, penis size varies greatly. Even when it is flaccid, it is not the same size. If a large, handsome guy just took a cold shower, rest assured I will not think any less of his manhood, or feel somehow better about myself because his penis is tiny at that time. The size of his organ when flaccid and his masculinity in my mind are totally unrelated.

So no, I do not compare my penis to other guys’ organs. Not homophobia, but simply poor data sampling. And I have never visited the sites on the size of man’s penis that you wrote about. I assume that I am pretty much just average; I don’t see why I’d be anything else.

By the way, I do assume that the question on Seinfeld “Do women know about shrinkage?” would be answered by most women in affirmative, correct?

You have confirmed exactly what I have always believed women generally think about this issue. Women do not judge a guy on the size of the bulge in his pants prior to being intimate with him, and even afterward, when the size of his penis may be important, the size of his penis is never central or crucial to their views of guys. Thus, guys generally do not have hang-ups due to the size of their penis.

If women would stare and make crude comments about the shape of guys’ bulges in their pants, as guys do about women’s breasts, then perhaps guys would have more hang-ups about their penis size.

AG,


Well, I can't answer for all women....but I absolutely am aware of the "shrinkage" factor. And I believe you when you say that you don't even peek....but you can't speak for all men either. I think both men and women who have more confidence and good self esteem (both which you seem to have in abundance....justified or not LOL) are far less likely to compare at all!! Folks who have body issues....compare constantly. It's silly to assume we all come to the table from the same perspective, with the same self esteem, coping mechanisms or healthy body image. We don't....and that includes both men and women.

Just out of curiosity, if your preference for penis is not the size of the penis, what penis characteristic were you referring to?

Of course you are right. I do not speak for all men. I don't get paid enough to do that. Heck, I don't get paid enough as it is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But do you think that the percentage of men and women who have hang-ups about their bodies to the same level is about the same for men and women? I'd say that the percentage of women who have such hang-ups is much greater than that of men.

Oh yes! I agree completely. It's not anywhere near the same level....but the gap is changing. Eating disorders used to be almost completely a female problem....and now researchers are starting to see a real increase in these disorders for men.

Wasp.....back to your original posting before it got highjacked by all this penis talk...the best thing you can do for her and you is to keep doing everything you already are doing...complimenting her and going to the gym with her. Not only will you both feel better but you'll be strengthing your relationship! Good luck to both of you!!

HUGS

This morning we went to the gym. It was great. Both of us enjoy going and it's serving to give us a bond. Part of the reason I joined was for support and this morning we woke up with only 30 minutes to spare before her scheduled step class. She was like "Awww... I guess we're gonna have to miss it" and I was like "we can still make it if we hurry; now hop out of bed and let's go". So we made it in time and had a great time. She must have thanked me at least 3x today for motivating her to go. So not only was the work out good but she expressed some appreciation towards me which is kind of rare. Yae for us!

Good job!! Don't stop being her biggest fan!!

Fuuny, this was a big issue with my wife and not a big issue with me.

My wife also had marks from birthing two children. She also had stomach surgery before I met her. Had scars all over the stomach area. She had a liitle "gut" too that never went away.

As for her chest, well, yeah, they sagged a little ....

She hated me touching her stomach area at all. I actually though of those "imperfections" as individual beauty marks on her.

They have never, ever bothered me. I took them as just being part of her. And I loved her just the way she was.

Her and I used to fight over her body and the way it looked all the time.

I loved her just as she was built. I didn't care if she was a little over weight. In fact, I always said, it gives me a little more to grab onto!

She on the other hand, used to think I was lying when I told her she looked beautiful. She used to look at her self and say to me, "there is no way this (pointing to any place on her body) looks good to her.

I told her, time and time agagin, it wasn't just the way she looked, but how she felt about herself that turned me on.

The more she was comfortable with herself, the more I was attracted and the more I wanted to look at her.

And I loved touching her, looking at her.

As for her chest, I loved it just the way it was. She was the perfect size and they felt wonderful and looked great to me.

I really didn't notice alot of the things she pointed out to me.

Never could get her topless at a beach though !!

have you told her that you feel like your missing out on being able to touch her stomach? have you tried writing her a letter as if you were posting it here? if you put it on paper,not only will you flawlessly be able to tell her your feelings,but she will see exactly what she means to you. have you pointed out to her that being able to see her body entirely,and to be able to touch her entire body is very important to you,that even though we are most vulnerable when naked,making love,the vulnerability is what makes it so special.the entire act of trusting your partner so completely, to make love, because you love everything about them,never judging,nor seeing any flaws. have you told her she is flawless? that you need her to know how beautiful she is,and how you love her, all of her? romance her,try to take it slow,pleasure her first,and take your time on the parts that feel the best to her. make her feel like the sexiest woman alive. try a full body massage,with candlelight,oil,romantic music,etc. and seduce her into letting go of that fear. and if that doesn't work, i'll send her a photo of the thomas guide road map that use to be my smooth stomach. I use to be the same way,now i actually wear bikinis in the summer.and I don't worry so much about what it looks like,and I realized that my fiance didn't look at me the way I look at myself,so maybe I shouldn't make him.chances are,her stomach is perfect. but we,as women,are obsessed with this because the media says we should,and the media tells men that women should be built like barbie,most women don't realize that men are just as insecure about their bodies as we are. (hair loss,weight gain,the size of their" ",etc.)it's all a matter of perception. hope this helps a little.also,try changing the lightbulbs in the bedroom to pink or red,this is the color that is the most complimentary,and it's sexy. she'll feel sexy, you'll both benefit.you could take a bubble bath,with her in front laying against you,and caress her under the bubbles,this way,you aren't having sex,your bonding,you can't see her stomach through the bubbles,so she won't worry about you looking,and as far as you closing your eyes during sex with her on top, it's a breast thing. breasts(unless fake)don't quite"hold up" when your leaning over and letting them just hang.even the most perfect pair can't stand up under these conditions.sadly,again,the media makes us feel like we should all have breasts that look like halved melons in order to feel sexy. try telling her that you love the way they look next time she catches you peeking during sex, and go overboard if you have to,to let her know she's all you could ever dream of. and yes,it could lead to anorexia,so lavish her with approval and love asap! [color:"purple"] [/color]

I don't say just deal with it. WOW... boy, if anyone had a hang up with their stomach, it was me.

What my husband said to me changed the couse of our bedroom life FOREVER. The bedroom has held stronger than anything because of this.

He placed his hand on my tummy and told me... and I quote
"this is the most beautiful part of you. It brought beautiful babies into this world and for that I am forever thankful. It is the softest part of your body." He then kissed it and said softly, "It's sacred."

Let me add this one part, although when I look in the mirror, my stomach is still unattractive to me, I don't feel it is unattractive to him. Since he is the only one that will be looking at it, besides myself, his words of warmth, his perspective mean the world to me.

Done it all except write the letter. I honestly was NOT bothered at all about how she looked. I don't want a perfectly flawless wife. I want her. Just like she is.

I have told her over and over how beautiful I think she is. How she turns me on more, after years of being married. I have told her I wouldn't change a thing...

What do I get? I get her calling me a liar. I get her thinking that its not really true. I get her turning off lights and not letting me see her naked...

When are women going to get it through their heads that men love them like they are? We (most of us) really don't care if your a little over weight, if your chest isn't perfectly pointing, or if you have strech-marks from children. We love you the way you are. We married you not just because of the way you look, but for the way you are inside mostly. Sure, your looks attracted me the first time, but your heart kept me and I really don't care about those "minor" cosmedic changes...

I'm sorry, this has just been a really hot button in my marriage for a while. If I had it my way, I would have her cook dinner naked, everynight! I would get in the shower with her every morning. I would buy her all sorts of "revealing" clothes and have her wear them out n public. I love her just the way she is...

But, she sees herself differently. She doesn't think she is all that attractive no matter how many times she is out and men hit of her! She recently had a 21 year-old at her job write her a little love note, flirting with her. I told her, "See!!! You are beautiful !!" She doesn't believe it though...

It can be frustrating to me. And I have tried for a long time to prove that I really do love her just like she is....

As for the sex on top thing, I for one like them "hanging down" as you say. Looking at them when she is on top and being able to touch as well and see is a HUGE turn-on for me. Don't think all men dont like how it looks. Its one of my favorite positions just for that reason !!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

hen are women going to get it through their heads that men love them like they are? We (most of us) really don't care if your a little over weight, if your chest isn't perfectly pointing, or if you have strech-marks from children. We love you the way you are. We married you not just because of the way you look, but for the way you are inside mostly. Sure, your looks attracted me the first time, but your heart kept me and I really don't care about those "minor" cosmedic changes...



HMMMMMMMM...Possibly when men stop using porn that shows women without these eveyday 'flaws' that you men say dont bother you.

It gets me that men expect us w to believe they find us beautiful and couldnt care less about 'flaws (this words in itself is telling. ) Some men even go as far as to say these 'flaws increase their attraction to us. But honestly how much of their porn shows women who look like us every day wives?????????

Im sure some men will come back with the comment that 'oh but porns fantasy' and to me this supports what Im saying. In a mans fantasy ideal world the way 'many of us look' is not considered the epitome of beauty' as they would have us believe.
If we are so beautiful to you men in our diversity why does mainstream porn contain so little diversity.

Personally my self esteem has taken a battering from my h comments but I am realsiing my stertch marks and sagging breasts are symbols (to me anyway of femininty, love , motherhood, giving and they moake my body MORE not LESS beautiful that 15yrs ago. BUT
I do see clearly that men simply dont see us that way. How can I make this assumption about men you ask.

THE EVIDENCE IS THERE IN THE PORN

BTW Stilllovingher, That last little vent was not directed at you but at men who see no problem with porn but then have the audacity to wonder why some of us women are fed up being told both overtly and covertly what is beautiful and how we should ideally look.

It takes only a quick look around to ascertain the beauty ideals. If our h choose to buy into this and lust after these ideal (whether in real life or on paper ) then they should not be suprised when we close our hearts to them

Letmejustsay -- I don't quite understand what you are saying. I think I hear, if men think W is beautiful for real (with flaws) then how come we look at porn when the porn star women are flawless ??

If thats what you are saying, let me see if I can help you with how it works for some men...

Men are visually stimulated. That is, when we see something, to us, that is beautiful, we enjoy looking at it and it arouses us. Now, lots of things can do this. But, the reaction both physically and mentally might not be the same.

Watching sports on a big widescreen. I am sure most men here find that visually pleasing. We will stare at a TV and watch sports for hours on end. Does it excite us physically? Well, not me. Does it excite all men? I don't know, but you get the point...

It stimulates our mind by watching something.

Now, for most of us, a beautiful woman does the same thing. For me, it does more (esp. if she is naked!). A beautiful woman can mean different things to a man.

I believe my wife is beautiful because of all the things I have shared with her. She is my best friend, the mother of my children, my caretaker, my heart. So, when I look at her, I don't look at her as some slab of meat that only has one purpose (sex). I look at her and I see a "glow" if you will, around her from her heart. THAT is what makes all the "flaws" so meaningless. I can talk to her, connect with her, feel safe with her. How she looks on the inside becomes more important that the outside. And what can be seen on the outside is far overshadowed by the "glow" from the inside. That is why I can say my wife is beautiful and still look at porn ..

As for the women in the porn. Well, I can only compare it to a woman relaxing in a bathtub reading a good love novel. You know, where Prince Charming comes and sweeps her off her feet to carry her to a castle. Think of your reaction to that as our reaction to porn....

Still can't draw the line? O.K. Hers another way. I don't want my wife to be the perfect, perky 18 year-old girls in those pictures. Why? Well, to be honest, I only want her (perky porn star) for one thing..And its not to raise my children!! When I am done, the girl goes. I don't want her hanging around. I want to use her for one thing. Thats it !

Now, I DON'T want to do that to my wife. I want to treat her with respect and have her as my wife. Hold her, love her, take care of her. And when I do something with her, I want to connect emotionally with her during the act. I certently don't want her to leave afterwards..

Can you see how one is very different than the other? Yet they cross only on the physical level?

The "act" commited with my wife is far more intense and more emotional that the "act" of the porn star. Yes, looking at it from the physical side, the end result is the same, but, its not the same in my noggin' nor is it even close in my heart..

I want you to know that "completion" of the act has a very calming and relaxing effect on men. It kinda puts us in La-La Land for a while. Personally, it helps me sleep if I am really stressed at work.

I know that sometimes my wife is not up for it. She has had a hard day too and maybe she just isn't in the mood. So, I take care of it myself. Why bother her if she isn't interested? I don't take it as a rejection, I take it as she just isn't up for it at the same time I am. But, I still need to relax and I think this will help. I don't guilt her or try to change her mind. I don't pout because she said, "NO!"

I just take care of it. I use a little visual help to help me. It doesn't mean I love her less. It doesn't mean I wish she looked like a porn star. No, it means that I needed to look at something to help the process along. Thats all. Heck, if she just understood why I do it and what it does for me, I don't think she would be all that upset about it. I have even asked HER to be the visual stimulation. Instead of agreement, I get a nasty, "NO, thats gross" reply. Talk about feeling ashamed? For what, wanting to "release" at a time when you don;t feel like it? Thats a bigger rejection (not understanding what I need) that saying no to the act.

Then I wonder, what do I have left to look at? Yep, you know.

I would love to say to my wife, "Honey, just give me 10 minutes and I'll take care of it, then you can roll over and go to sleep with me". Sound bad? Maybe, but remember, sometime men have to "release". We need to de-stress.

Try asking your man if you can be the "visual" part while he does it. Don't get repulsed, don't look ashamed. Give him exactly want he wants and "help" him. I guarenty you will see him become more physical with you after the first couple of times. He won't have to "hide" it. He won't have to feel ashamed. You might even enjoy watching him ( I did know a girl years and years ago that loved watching). He will know you understand it and its not a threat to him or the relationship. And he will feel good that he can be open with you about a very guarded secret in the Male community. Try it. You just might like the results!!

Lastly, If anyone takes this as I am degrading woman of making them "sex-objects" thats not what I am trying to say. Nor do I think that the opinion above is how all men think or why all men look at porn. I can only speak of myself and how I feel. I do not want my wife to be a sleazely porn star. But, sometimes I do want her to get wild with me. I do want her to be free with me. I do want her to try anything (within reason) with me. But, I also want her to be my wife, and I want the act alot more often than not, to be about connecting our hearts and our bodies. Not just a release.

Stilllovingher, Sure I have NO issue with being h eyecandy, dont feel repulsed or ashamed > why the ****** would I? but all your justifications dont take away the fact that the women you look at in porn DONT look like most of us wives. So dont be suprised if we start hgetting insecure about our bodies when you guys get all hot and sweaty over a 20yr old hard body porn star. You are clearly saying that for visual stilualation THAT is your ideal. We do realsie that you dont want a deep relationship with her, we realsie you dont want her to raise your children we realsie all that. We also realsie that if it comes down to pure visuals and sexual stilumation you would not choose a woman who looked like us over the porn star. Like I said we are just talking about visauls her and sexually.

THIS IS PRECISELY THE REASON WE DONT HAVE INSDECURITIES OIVER RAISING KIDS, COMMUNICATING, BEING YOUR BEST FRIEND ETC. OUR INSECURITIES COME WITH BELIEVING YOU FIND US SEXY.
Why because , like I sa8id we know that deep down our BODIES are not enough for you, for you to find us equally alluring as the porn star body you have to factor in other things.
You might see no problem with this, but clearly many women do.

WHY dont your porn mags have women that look like us flaws and all?????
Why dont women with stretch marsk, celluelite, sagging braests etc get you off visually as much as a 20yr old porn star. I dont believe you werte programmed this way. Throughout the centuries ideals change. At some times women who would be considered obese by todays standards were considered the epitome of beuty at other times flat chest etc. I believe many men are brainwashed and totally out of touch with their sexuality, taking their lead from the media as to what they desire and then feeding this with porn.


The bottom line is that for many of us women we are very clear on what you find to be the visual ideal for getting you aroused and its not us.

If bodies like you wives are you physical ideal and this is the porn you seek then I guess she would feel pretty comforatble right???????

The fact that you and some other men dont think we should care about this so long as you see something deeper than looks in us is irrelevant. For some women the need to be physiaclly desirable (not desirable because of inner glow, how we raise kids or communicate) is strong and valid.

You may not agree and frankly it doesnt matter. Im just sharing with you the way I and many other women feel about it.