EnlessHorizon and SoLostagain,

Since I don’t want to threadjack needtotalk’s thread and since I’ve also made a reference to another thread about porn use, I’ve decided to delete the post on that thread and send it here instead:

EndlessHorizon, on Smartcookies thread about her H’s porn use, you have posted the following:

Well Horizon, you (and your W) might not feel you dishonor her, but you’re certainly dishonoring God by practicing “mental” adultery and reduce women to ‘sex objects’ in your mind. Basically you're making sex very cheap & shallow by doing this...to the level of an animal seeking instant satisfaction for sexual urges...and this is NOT how God created and intended the sacred act of sex in a marriage to be... He created sex to be an act between ONE man and ONE woman, and as ForeverHers has said, there is no place for a "third" person in a M...not physically, emotionally and/or mentally. It causes too much damage and leads to hurt, despair and devastation - just look at all the posters on these boards who are looking for help.

When Jesus said ”anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart”, he was referring to ANY woman…and porn women on internet/magazines are real people who exist. Therefore, if a man looks at a woman (whether it's 'live' or 'porn' woman) lustfully and imagine/fantasize about sexual encounters with her in his mind, he IS “longing for what is forbidden”, committing adultery in the mind and therefore an adulterer in the eyes of God. You can justify and rationalize around this as much as you want, but the fact remains that this IS wrong and sinful in God’s eyes. And you ARE dishonoring God and by doing this no matter if you are a believer or not…

By the way, if you read the link in my signature line, you will see I was involved in "mental betrayal" myself, so I KNOW how much damage it can cause... As a Christian, it damaged my self-respect, spiritual and emotional life and most importantly, my religious life and my personal relationship with the Lord. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It took me a long time to "recover" and this is why I've come to this website.

Script makes it very clear that God created humans in his Image. He didn’t create them as animals...people only decide to behave as animals. Yes, we human beings have the same animal instincts and God created ALL humans with sexual desire - nothing wrong with that, but humans (other than animals) are able to control those sexual urges and impulses… We are able to control it in such a way for it to be in line with our moral code and ethics… We are able to release those sexual desires in ways which are appropriate and will honor God and the covenant of marriage in stead. This is the difference between humans and animals. And people who find it hard to control those urges and impulses (such as sex addicts or people who have certain mental disorders etc.) ARE able to get professional help.

I've struggled with a mental disorder myself namely Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder. The OCD played a huge part in my "mental betrayal" and obsessive thoughts about XOM, but I've decided to SEEK help and overcome it. I still have the temptation to have these thoughts from time to time and my tendency to have these thoughts is not completely gone yet...I still have to fight the "fight" because I don't want to be controlled by those thoughts and tendancies... And I know I will dishonor God (and my H) if I give in to those thoughts again... It's not always easy (and sometimes I still fail) but as a Christian, it's important for me to fight Satan and not give in to my human weaknesses and sinfull nature. Sin always start in the thoughts and even though people might never physically acted on the thoughts/feelings, they still sin and dishonoring God and their spouses by "crossing the line" in their thoughts. This is what I did...and it's something I will regret forever.

SoLostAgain, you don’t feel comfortable with your H’s porn behavior and IMHO there is NO REASON on this earth why you should accept and/or be content with his behavior or try to live with it and accept it (as suggested by Horizon). It IS disrespectful towards you. What your H is doing IS wrong and like you, I find it upsetting if people try to rationalize and justify such behavior. You can’t (and should not) expect yourself to change your views about this and accept it, esepcially not since you’re a Christian. As I’ve said before, in God’s eyes your H is committing ‘mental adultery’ by doing this... Please don't settle for less than what YOU are feeling comfortable with...

Some people are more “open-minded” than others and some may get more “open-minded” as they get older, but IMO porn is a MORAL issue. Therefore, in my view, if something is against a person’s moral values (like pornography) and then that person start to become more “open-minded” and start to accept it for the purpose of keeping his/her spouse satisfied, then in reality that person is lowering his/her moral standards… And no person should allow themselves to settle for less than what they are feeling comfortable with on a moral level. I realize that men are visual and usually have stronger sex drives than women, but the fact that they are visual and have higher sex drives, aren’t an excuse for them to treat their wife’s disrespectfully (by looking at porn, practice ‘mental adultery’ and do other things to reduce women to ‘sex objects’). It’s just SOOO disgusting IMO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Like you, I was also sexually molested and raped as a child, so probably this is part of the reason I feel so strong about this.

(Transferred from NTT's thread)

Suzet,

I truly appreciate your kind words to me. In my heart, I know I don't have do give in to the pressure that Endless appears (I am not trying to bludgen you Endless. It really does appear to me that you are putting pressure on me to just accept and enjoy porn) to be putting on me. Unfortunately, it is still very hard for me to counteract the beliefs generated from my rape. It was spelled out to me that porn was the thrust behind this and that I needed to comply in order to please my relative.

That may be why I get so hysterical when I hear any man talk about how great porn is. It boggles my mind when men say they have to have it because they're visual. So, before the internet, before PlayBoy and the like, men weren't whole? There was no sexual excitement? Teen boys didn't have the same level of sexual frustrations? Please.

I hate the rationalizations, the justifications. I hate the fact that the immorality is glossed over. I hate that Christians, who KNOW God himself has spoken against that kind of thing, still see it as a normal, healthy male thing. I hate that men say "but it isn't about you" or WORSE "I was imagining you all the time."

Men seem to expect women to understand and get on board all the while refusing to believe the statistics, the studies, the living proofs of what porn has done and if they're Christians, the moral indecency of porn.

My H may yet still chose porn over me. Inconceivable, but true. As much as he revolts me, that thought that I could be replaced by glossy pages in a magazine, flickering images on TV or the computer kills me. It makes me want to abandon all my principles to the wind and do anything to make him pay attention to me.

I won't. I'm through with that. God help me.

My husband quit viewing porn on his volition after D-Day. I had told him I thought that his looking at all those "slutts" (that's how their portrayed) opened him up to vulnerability so that when a real live slutt appeared offering herself just as easily to him, he practically could not distinguish the difference.

He said he thought I was right, and the porn ended right then and there.

I never even had to ask.

Yeah sorry about the disappointment, but I tend to be more scientific towards my spiritual being rather than theocratic. The mental adultery thing isn't betraying anyone IMO, in fact the sounds of lovemaking can be erotic, it's not always visual to me. If you want to believe in ghosts, no need to get all over me about it. You can try and tell me I'm being disrespectful to my wife all you want; the wife and I know the truth.

I'm not defending the whole industry, just regulation of various adult professions. I don't use prostitutes, or strip clubs, but I realise that they are NOT going away. If woman insist on being streetwalkers, then at least put the money in their hands; same with strippers and porn videos.

Therefore they need to be regulated, for the saftey of all. I'm sorry I wish I could say it was going to go away, but it's not. The mass population is against most of your opinions. The media bleeds pornography, and sex is everywhere. They are predicting that "flashing" will be replaced within 5 to 10 years from now by "public sex". It needs to be regulated now, before it gets out of control.

My values for the most part are as Christian as yours, though- I personally don't wish my family to be walking down the street and witness two people screwing on the sidewalk. Thing is- it HAPPENS! I was at work, when I was told about how two teenagers where having relations right behind some bushes, easily observable from the shipping/receiving door. Co-workers had to tell them a couple times to leave! I'm pretty much done on this topic, it's become a lot more moral than I intended. I'm not here to argue for or against an industry, just that if it exists, then regulate it.

I really don't have time to worry about things like offending a god or somesuch. I rather have a belief in an entity that doesn't know what it is, and we in turn are its' way of figuring itself out. We learn things for ourselves, and those lessons help it. I intend to learn as much I can, and explore new things, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally, on as many levels as possible.

You've taken me too literally in your interpretation of my rather metaphoric, animalistic depiction of the act of lovemaking! Heh. I dunno, I prefer to explore all sides of making love, and not being bound to some religious scriptures. I honour my wife and she honours me! It was both our wishes to watch the pornography, so you can at least direct some of your disgust towards her as well! I've stated before that we have followed the POJA, and are in agreeance with its' terms.

Anyway, nice chatting with you fellows on this topic, I'm off to the next one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

People are so eager to use porn until I ask for a video of them. They will say well those poeple chose to make the film and put it out there, I don't choose to do that. But not everyone in the porn business chooses that life. And prostitutes, well does everyone really believe all of them want to walk the streets? If they had the chance for a decent life don't you think they would take it? And strippers, I knew one. She did it because she had parents who kicked her out, she didn't have an education, she had a boyfriend who beat her and made her pay the bills, and she had two kids to feed and the only time she could work was at night. Stripping was the easiest, and quickest way she could make money. She finally met a guy who married her and she got in school and gave up stripping. People are put in these situations not always by choice, but by circumstance and those who view porn are often perpetrators taking advantage of innocent victims. So again, if porn is so acceptable, hand out a video of yourself in the midst of sexual act. I'm sure people would enjoy watching it.

Just read your thread-

I'm not pressuring you (and if I am I certainly don't mean to), that's not my intention at all. You do what YOU know is right. That's the most important thing. If it's against your morals- don't do it- not for him, or anyone, do things for yourself!

Endless,

While your views and attitudes scare me, I am grateful you are willing to take the time to try and explain things, even when you see my claws bared.

I know the moralizing can get a bit much. I noticed I did that a lot with a couple of friends of mine who were have affairs. Nothing I said seemed to get through to them, so it ended up in a battle of what's right and what's wrong. I'm trying to learn to back off of that.

I talked to a friend from here about my reactions to your posts. What she said surprised me. She told me to look at this. "What if all men do like to look at porn. What does that say about SLA?"

Oi. Okay, so that was a tough thing to try and think through. It brings up nasty, horrible no-good feelings. That's where most of my reactions are coming from. I have to face these if I ever hope to master myself & my emotions.

So thank you for being a part in my healing journey. I'm sure it isn't easy being the lone voice of disent. I still think you're on the wrong track, but only time will tell. And if you really do keep with the POJA, well, it possibly will work out for the best.

Thanks.

Awww, wow. That was really touching.

Despite my scary views and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I'm still here for a bit of healing myself. I don't mean to be critical of FH and others' pain here. It's all genuine, we're all going through it, and I am just looking for a little help to keep me going too. Ironically, reading about others' misfortune makes me feel like I'm not alone, and sadly, better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I wasn't really going to post back here on this thread, but sending you a PM or opening another thread is not really overly necessary, so I'll say something here, again.

Why did you have to use that acronym?! LOL I can't figure out for the life of me what that is: SLA? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Is it the initials to your Avatar name?

However concerning all men viewing porn? I'm not certain all men do, but probably a vast number. It's just not talked about, especially around women! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Again, it's all in the amount you watch it, and it's delivery, where it can be viewed constructively or destructively. I mean what red-blooded guy doesn't pick up and flick through a Sports Illustrated Swimwear mag?! That's just an indication that men like that stuff. Damn, let's not fool ourselves- so do women! That fireman's calender each year sells pretty good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Not many guys though, are gonna admit to their wives they'd pick up a Hustler magazine. If there's not the movie- then there's the imagination. A guy could pick up that SI Swimwear mag, and underdress the girl on the cover with his eyes... while masterbating. 1 in 4 men you shake hands with have recently finished masterbating and hasn't washed since! BLECH! Maybe it's not the girl on the cover of the SI mag the men will undress, but maybe the girl walking down the street, sitting in the office, or maybe even the next door neighbour.

Perhaps it was even you they were undressing- and it led to the horrible things that happened to you once upon a time. I don't want to sound cruel, but there have been rapes and violence towards woman, unfortunately for ages... I can't pretend to feel for you, because it must be too awful for me to envisage, ever, being a man, but you encountered a part of our sick society that needs to be corrected, agreed. Laws need to be more strict, and penalties harsher. I for one am a little radical- but sexual perpetrators should be locked up by chains to a wall in a cold, dark cell, and sprayed down with cold water nightly for the rest of their lives. This to me would be a damn good start!

Sorry, I got a little side-tracked there.

I've also considered what you posted, and I'm not sure if you're really as confused as you think you are. You've done the hardest thing, getting him out of the house; living without his presence may be the next most difficult step.

Your husband doesn't seem to want to change, so maybe you should cut the cords, and find that idyllic man you so want, and most likely deserve. The trouble with this advice though, could be of the "Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" variety. I would hate to think I said anything to as so much influence someone to doing something that leads to disaster. However, in your heart you know what's right I think, and you should only do things right now that help yourself. At the risk of feeling selfish, building yourself up is a good start.

You seem strong, I'm sure your esteem isn't suffering. How long ago did all this happen with your husband in regards to you kicking him out of the house, may I ask?

I dunno, maybe you should let him go, and move on. Way too much stress for anyone to bear needlessly IMO, especially with someone who isn't cooperating. Being Christian though, I suppose that decision isn't easily arrived at either. Keep in touch.

Well, you are scary to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> This coming from a woman who spent most of her teens & 20s thinking that any man who looked at her was gonna rape her. My, what I did to myself.

I am terribly frightened by the male sex drive. I do see that it's because of my introduction to that sex drive, and having it tied to porn like mine was made for some pretty strong phobias. That's why I'll say again that I think it's good to talk to someone who won't blow me off as insane.

I use SLA because for a long, long time I felt so lost in my marriage. Then, I was starting my healing process and getting stronger - learning not to indulge my anger as much when I found the porn in Sept. of this year. So now I feel so lost again. I kicked him out the same day. I never let him back into the house. I used to post under Seeking_More, but now I just feel lost.

Your suggestion about just cutting ties and going forward is something I long to do. My coach sent me a pretty good e-mail about vows though. I promised for better or for worse. This is the worse. I also have 2 kids that adore their father - and he's a good father. And yes, there is that pesky Christian attitude to worry about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I also see on this site how one has to "earn" their way out of a marriage. I'm pretty sure I haven't earned anything yet.

And I'm skewing some of what's happening in my life to my fears. My coach tells me my H does want to change. Unfortunately, I've heard that many, many times so don't believe it. I am most likely presenting to the world an untruthful picture of my husband. Man, that's hard to admit. To my H's credit, he has undertaken a program in emotion regulation, and even attended SAA meetings for 6 weeks. But I've gone off the deep end in my fears because he stopped (with the coach's blessing) because he doesn't seem to fit the profile of a SA. That bothers me. If he isn't an SA, why the heck has he rejected me for all these years?

I can't know that unless I am willing to talk to him. I am not willing right now because I am waaaayyyyyy too frightened. I admire the women (and men) on this board who are willing to do what it takes. I'm hoping to garner the emotional strength I need to earn the divorce. Maybe once I earn it, I won't want it.

Hey, it's nice to know someone thinks I may not be as confused as I think I am! Maybe I'm just afraid to trust myself.

LOL. It also doesn't help that I have a very strong streak of melodrama running in my blood. LOL.

Be strong.

Well, many modern psychologists of today think the same, but God and the Bible teach me otherwise:

Matthew 5:27 – 30:

Quote

"You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye-even if it is your good eye*-causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into h e l l. 30 And if your hand-even if it is your stronger hand*-causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into h e l l.”

But o yea, I’ve forgot…you don’t seem to believe in the Bible and the existence of God. You’ve said that you don’t believe in ghosts. Well, I have news for you Horizon…you don’t have to believe in ghost to know that God exist. God isn't a "ghost".

Well, sorry that you are the target here, but I’ve seen your justifications and rationalizations about porn as a great opportunity to help stand for the Godly view of marriage, between H and W ONLY. As womanoffaith5 has said, the people who stand for the Godly view of marriage need to be more vocal… We need to show ourselves to the light of day so that people are no longer saying that EVERYONE views porn. Instead, we need to stand up and say "not everyone, not me". And I’m lucky to also be married to a H who are one of these people who believe in the Godly view of marriage… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, as long as you don’t do the “big” sin of using prostitutes and strip clubs, it’s okay to do the “small” sin of viewing porn and practice mental adultery? Well, sin is sin. You’re now arguing like a thief who believes it’s okay to only steal R10 or R20, as long as he don’t steal big amounts of R1 000, R1000 000 or R1 million… It’s just another one of you justifications and rationalizations Horizon. Stealing is stealing and adultery is adultery – no matter if the amount is “big” or “small” and no matter if the adultery is just in your head or physically.

Let’s replace the word, "streetwalkers" with "drugs" in your sentence above:

"If people insist on selling drugs, then at least put the money in their hands”

Sounds bizarre, doesn’t it? Will you make the same argument about drugs Horizon? The things is, prostitution is already legal in certain countries...it's just a matter of time before the selling of illegal and damaging drugs will also become legal. When this happens, will you think the selling of these drugs are also okay Horizon?

Further, as AskMe pointed it out to you, not all woman are streetwalkers because they want to do it or insist on doing it… No, sometimes people are put in these situations not by choice, but by circumstance and out of desperation to survive…and those who view porn are often perpetrators taking advantage of innocent victims. Please read AskMe’s post again. Please get hold of the book ”Redeeming Love” by Francine Rivers (it’s about a prostitute), then you will hopefully begin to understand…

Well, I know it will not go away, but the fact that these things exist, isn’t an excuse or justification for people to make use of it. The same with certain drugs – the fact that it exist and are sold, isn’t an excuse to use it.

Yes, I know this very well… The world is liberal & morally bankrupt…and it become more and more so… It’s very sad… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> People choose the “wide” path… God have said himself that the road to eternity and salvation is very “narrow”.

Yea, how sad… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> No wonder society is so morally bankrupt and currently in the ‘state’ they’re in. People are getting brainwashed and everything is spinning out of control… The things which was taboe and wrong in the past, now becomes the ‘norm’ and people find it more and more acceptable...

I’m afraid it’s too late…things are already out of control.

Really??? I don't think you and my values or morals are the same at all Horizon... I can’t see it… Tell me, do you believe in the Bible and God’s teachings? It don't seem so...

Good for you, but again, the fact than it happens isn’t an excuse to look at it. You can choose to look the other side… The same with pornography, you can choose NOT to buy it and NOT to look at it. You say personally you don’t wish your family to witness two people screwing, but it’s okay for YOU to witness it? What a perfect example of double standards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Or better...don’t make use of that specific industry...

I was not talking about a god…I was speaking of God Himself. But again, I forget, you seem to not believe in His existence and the Bible…

Yea, you want to explore things with NO regard if it’s right or wrong, or the implications it have on you, your environment and the people around you…

I don’t think so… Then why did you say that people are animals and operate the same way as them?

Your choice…as long as you don’t try to rationalize and justify your behavior to people who believes different than you and whose morals & values are different than yours. This is a MARRIGE BUILDING website and encouraging behavior which dishonor marriages and don’t help to build marriages are very wrong IMHO.

Yea, the only problem is she isn’t posting here…I can just talk to YOU.

Good for you…but again, as long as you don’t expect other women like SoLostAgain to do the same as you W and accept the behavior. Tell me, what would you do if your W was totally against your behavior and not willing to do this with you? Would you continue to do it in private and hide it from your W?

Tell me Horizon, are you also one of the men who’re doing this? Namely, undressing the girl on the cover with your eyes while masturbating? And also the girl walking down the street, sitting in your office, or the one next door? And if you do this Horizon, tell me WHY are you doing it and if you do it, do you keep those thoughts secret from your W? And do you think doing the above is also not disrespectful towards your W or dishonoring her?

What I don’t understand about men who undress girls with their eyes and then fantasize about them (and even masturbating while fantasizing about them)…WHY? WHY are these H’s wife’s not good enough? I mean, they have a wife instead to fantasize about and enjoy good sex with… Why replacing this with fantasizing about other girls and masturbating (unless they're thinking of their own W's while masturbating) in stead? I think the answer lies in SELFISNESS and GREEDINESS. The poor W’s of these husbands are just not good enough for them… I think these men would be satisfied if they could have more than 1 woman in stead…maybe 10 or more… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But it’s a relief to know that not ALL men are like this (or at least willing to fight their weaknesses and sinfull nature)…thank God! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Solostagain, don't feel your Christain attitude is "pesky". PLEASE don't because it's not... Be PROUD of if and don't try to change it! You're perfect the way you are and there is NOTHING wrong with a Christlike attitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that I am beginning to realize how incredibly strong feelings some women have about porn. From reading the posts I really do feel the anguish from some of the posters. Now, I've always knew that women are not necessarily thrilled with their husbands using porn, but it still seems pretty inconceivable to me that a woman would consider the use of porn by her husband as cheating or would have porn be the main reason to get divorce.

I am really not an insensitive jerk, I am just trying to understand a point of view on this from a woman who'd divorce her otherwise fine husband solely because of porn.

For a woman who would not stay in a relationship with a guy who uses porn I have the following query:
If a man does have a stronger sexual drive then his wife does, then it seems to me that he has several options:
(1) force his wife to submit to him more often, and have her serve him sexually more then she would be comfortable;
(2) be sexually unfulfilled and frustrated, resent wife's lack of low sexual drive, wonder if he should have married her in the first place, and even wonder if he can get a little side action going or; or
(3) devote 10 minutes couple of times a week to porn and get on with his life.

Which of these 3 options is the best for him? Which of these three options is best for her? Which is the best for their relationship? Or is there an option that I have overlooked?

No, I am not arguing this; I am really just trying to understand it from your point of view. Thanks!

There is a 4th option you failed to mention and that is learning how to deal with your stronger sexual drive.

I have had a sexual addiction my entire life and up until 2.5 years ago if someone had stated option 4 I would have said get real. But I have learned not only can I deal with my sexual drive, I don't let it control my life. I use to masturbate because I thought I needed sexual release, but in fact it was anxiety release that I was after. I haven't masterbated in those 2.5 years that I have been sober in my sexual addiction. So it is possible to control those urges that men think are so uncontrollable.

Yes, there is an option you’ve overlooked. IMO none of the above 3 options is a solution. I would suggest the following:

The H and W must come to a compromise. The one with the stronger sex drive must be willing to have less sex than what he/she would like to have (in a perfect world) and the one with the lower sex-drive must be willing to have more sex than what he/she would like to have (in a perfect world). For example if the man/woman want sex every day and the other partner only once a week, they can come to a compromise of 4 times a week (this is just an example, but something the 2 partners can POJA about). It’s all about give and take. And the one with the lower sex drive don't have to be forced into anything...no, they must compromise and POJA about this. Remember, there is also marriages where the wife have the stronger sex-drives (it happens more and more these days! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Then I would further suggest that, on the days the partner with the higher sex-drive don’t get satisfaction from his/her partner and feel he/she really have to get relief for the sexual urge & impulse, he/she can use a sex toy or “do it him/herself” (masturbating) while thinking and/or fantasizing about his/her partner. (Fantasizing about other men/women and/or using porn is OUT!). With “mental” adultery and porn use, you’re actually bringing another human being inside the M and marriage bed, whereas with using sex toys or masturbating while fantasizing about you own H or W (not someone else), doesn’t involve a third person at all.

Personally I don't prefer sex toys or masturbating and I would not recommend it unless it's really necessary in certain situations, but I don't judge people who do it or make use of it...simply for the reason that it doesn't involve a third person and "mental" adultery. And this is also the only solution when spouses are away from each other for a long period of time or where one of the two partners is unable to have sex because of medical reasons, sickness or whatever.

JMHO

Hi Suzete,

Thank you for your concern for me. I truly do appreciate it.

I don't think of my Christianity as pesky. Mostly that sentence was said tongue in check to Endless because I kinda think he sees it as pesky. And in a way, Christian values are pesky. They're always there, whispering in your ear about what would be pleasing to God. I can't just do whatever I want, and even in my desires to please God, I am called to do that in a manner that is pleasing to HIM.

I think all you have to say about pornography is spot on.

Thanks!

"With “mental” adultery and porn use, you’re actually bringing another human being inside the M and marriage bed, whereas with using sex toys or masturbating while fantasizing about you own H or W (not someone else), doesn’t involve a third person at all."

• Yeah, but you can commit mental adultery while thinking about your next door neighbour! Porn isn't the direct cause of "mental adultery". If your partner and yourself fantasized about a third party in the sexual mix, even without a video, just toys, you can recreate the same effect. Besides, in that case- how do you KNOW your partner isn't thinking about another person? Oh, that's right you can't! If you could, you probably wouldn't need to be here! Just like SoLostagain. Just like me. Again, I'm not a all-porn-is-fine-with-me advocate, but getting rid of it, won't remove the means to an end.
  
  *edit* Oh Suzet, I just read your other post- holy! I would love to reply to it, but again, I'm not here to argue about moral ambiguities and thought police theorems. I simply don't have the time to answer that post; I have other things I wish to do today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Howdy Average Guy,

It kills me how guys don't understand the effect porn has on women! (That wasn't said in anger by the say, just total amazement)

My H gets upset if I talk about another guy's earning capabilities, how he might smell good, how he might me feel emotionally comfortable. Why? All I'm doing is talking about something I like or admire in another male. But my H gets really bent out of shape with that sort of thing. So I stopped. Don't do it even with other females.

My attractiveness to my H is most often manifested in how he sees me. He's visual like men seem to be. So if he isn't satisfied with just looking at me, but has to look at porn, at movies, and women walking down the street, how in the world will that NOT affect me?

I think men don't get it partly because men don't WANT to get it. They've heard that porn is normal, healthy. And it feels good. Since men can compartmentalize, they don't connect the dots as easily. At least, that's my arm chair diagnosis.

Off my soapbox now to see if I can discuss your questions:



1. Well, we certainly know that option would backfire. No woman wants to SERVE her husband sexually. She want to share. To force her would be nothing less than rape. So that's out.

2. This option is pretty awful too. No man wants to be sexually unfulfilled (at least that's my understanding. My H doesn't seem to care). No man wants to realize he married the wrong person. But to think that getting a little on the side will solve the problem shows immaturity at best and plain stupidity at worst. So that's out.

3. Hum. Do you really believe I should fall for the 10 mintues at a time stuff? If a man is frustrated, starts finding a sort of fulfillment in porn, it will progress. This has been proven.

Now in my case, yes I would divorce my husband because of continued porn use. He absolutely knows how it makes me feel. Knew before we got married. Knew that one of the reasons I felt safe enough to even think about having sex with him was because he had sworn to me over and over that porn was degrading and something he would NEVER use to debase himself or me.

I have absolutely no idea if my husband has a higher sex drive than me. He won't talk about it, won't discuss it. It wasn't until we were married for almost 8 years and I told him I felt rejected that he finally admitted he could have sex everyday. But he said he knew it could never happen so he would never pursue it. He didn't touch me after that conversation in any way shape or form for 3 weeks.

So who's got the problem here? Me? That's what he told me.

So, in my opinion, Endless has the right of this. You MUST POJA. If the wife proves unwilling to POJA, then a Plan B might have to be put in place. It is no more right for a woman to withhold herself from her husband than it is for the husband to sneak porn. Both those kinds of activities must be cut out from the marriage.

And then, you have the human factor. We all do things we don't understand. We all have hangups. We have to learn how to be compassionate with each other.

That's my worst failing. I just am not a compassionate person. It angers me beyond belief that my husband has done this. It appears to anger him that I don't understand him.

So, my option would be to talk, talk, talk. Come to an agreement that both partners can live with. Neither will get exactly what they want probably, but the working together may create such a bond that the sexual drive may be compensated somewhat by the closeness the partners would feel.

That's my take on it anyway. Porn puts a wall up. It puts other women in between the man and the wife. If the wife is willing to watch it with the husband, then porn puts a wall of other men in between the wife and the man. It isn't some simple past time.

I hope I've answered your questions a little. I'm glad you asked so I can at least start to articulate what it is I feel. Thanks.

Yeah, I've told SoLostagain the same thing! However, the guy is basically lying to her face, and being pretty irrational to boot! He's arguing vehemently against it on one hand, and well, possibly doing the nasty with the other... LOL In my relationship, I just said "I don't know" and a shrug, and that was that. I didn't pepper a diatribe with scripture. For someone religious, that's a blow.

I think what the shock value is for the ladies' here, is that it's a pretty big sense of disappointment and even betrayal. SoLostagains' husband is choosing it over her. Repeatedly year after year. Hmmm. That's a big problem.

I didn't do that in my relationship. I still "serviced" my wife, but my mind wasn't into making love to the woman I was also angry at. My sex drive crawled down to a minimum.

I used to joke that I made love to a womans' mind, and now I know it to be true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, yeah, I find the thought a little strange myself, getting rid of the one you love in lieu of obedience or self-control issues. If the husband really loves his wife, he NEEDS to stop for her sake. SLA like I said, needs to either save face somehow, or I think let it go. I don't think the latter option will be likely to materialize (sorry about talking about you in the third-person SLA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

It's a hard road she's choosing, but I think it's time for a resolution.

"...starts finding a sort of fulfillment in porn, it will progress. This has been proven."

[b]Wait a second! *raises hand* It didn't happen to me! LOL

"Anger leads to the darkside."- Yoda

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I stand corrected, sir!