My "husband" has shown me again and again that he doesn't care about me. I give up. MB works if two people are willing to go through the program. He isn't.

We have four children, ages 4 - 11. Tom is traveling for his job and is gone nearly every week from Monday through Thursday late or Friday after work. He's not shown much interest in spending time with me or the kids. I can take them out on the weekends to places like the Children's Museum or the Science Museum or the pool.

I cannot change him. He's shown a willingness to hurt me that I interpreted as insensitivity rather than disregard and perhaps cruelty.

Now I face the truth that he isn't going to change. He doesn't care about me. Harley recommends separation/Plan B. I sincerely doubt that Tom would wake up due to a separation/Plan B. He's still thinking I'm the problem because I'm "mean" or a "bully". I'm tired of it.

So -- what to do?

Divorce is financially devastating. I'm not sure I could work full time. Our kids are young. When the youngest enters kindergarten, the kids will be gone for approximately the length of time of 8 work months, except that I would also need to be home when one of them is sick. Also, they're too young for me to count on them to help with many of the chores, and they'd have less opportunity for activities like gymnastics, Math Team, and basketball, in part because of the finances and in part because I wouldn't have a way to get them to the activities if I am at work.

That leaves me considering emotional divorce. He's gone much of the week anyway. If I don't expect anything of him, I won't be disappointed. He can do what he pleases, and I'll stay as far away from him as possible until the kids are older.

My sister-in-law has already made this decision. I've talked with her about it. She can't find part time work, so she's working full time on a contract basis for three months. It's tough on her and the kids. She takes a lot of vacations without her husband visiting relatives. She told me she's learned to "cope".

This is definitely not a Harley recommended approach to marriage, so I don't know if anyone is living this way. It may be better for me and the kids to have him home on the weekends doing what he wants, which often doesn't involve the kids or me. We'd have the home, we'd have the school (which I think has kept our children -- thus far -- from major psychological and behaviorial problems), and I'd be able to get them to and from activities. I could recover my dignity by living in a state of emotional divorce until the kids are older, when I will be able to work and provide for myself.

Does anyone know of any books on this topic? Is anyone living like this? This is not in any way, shape, or form a way to wake my husband up to wanting to have a real marriage of intimacy and care. It's a practical way to maintain a decent standard of living until the kids are out of the house.

I have a religious bent, which is much of the reason why I stayed in this marriage and tried so hard to make it work. In the Catholic faith, Satan is called the Father of Lies. I realized, from my husband's treatment of me over the past several days, that I have been lying in thinking that my husband doesn't understand or I'm not communicating in a way that makes sense to him when in reality he doesn't care. I'm willing now to accept that he doesn't care and won't. Now I need to take care of myself and the children. Any comments?

Cherishing

Cherishing,
I have followed your story, and my heart breaks when I think of all you have been through.

I know there are many financial and logistical benefits to staying married, and suffering through your emotional divorce. However, I believe the most important thing you can do for your children is model behavior that will bring them fulfilment in later life. When they are 30, their gymnastic skills won't be nearly as important as knowing how to love someone, and being able to receive love in return. If they can be a partner in a wonderful relationship, it will be so much more fulfilling than any skill or social activity they might aquire now. Divorcing your husband now will be very painful for them, but you have to keep your eye on the finished product-not the way they might be during the next few years. If you can demonstrate strength and self worth I think they will come to understand when they are older just how much you gave them during this time, even if they can't see it now.

I completely understand where your coming from, however, your kids are not too young to take on larger responsibilities. They are all in school ...and the 4yr old will be next year? So really if you got a job, all you need to worry about is full time child care for a year. Not to mention child support and insurance would be provided by your husband.

I am the oldest of 5 children; My mom worked nights and my dad worked days.....and well we kids took care of everything else. I was 5 when I started doing dishes, and 9 when I began watching my siblings ( not that I recommend it - but you get my point)

My daughter is 11 yrs old; she gets up on her own every mornign takes care of her breakfast, clothes, bookbag, and runs off to catch the bus by 7:45. When she gets home she does homework, dishes, and another chore. Also she does her own laundry.. taught her to do that this year.

I am not saying this needs to happen, or that your kids aren't responsible....please don't misunderstand. All I'm saying is that - you can do it: they can do it.

This is coming from someone who was once a single Mom, and who helps other single moms currently ... there are many jobs you can get that will work with your kids school
schedules.

Yes it will be hard, and yes they will have to give up some things, however, they will gain a happy Mom, and a peaceful existence, and most of all you will get YOU back.

It will be worse for you and your kids if you live with "an emotional divorce" from your husband.

All I can say is I've been where you have.....I have been the abused; physically, mentally, and emotionally.

I've followed your posts but have never posted to you. Coming from someone who once walked in your shoes... I say this only because I care....

You are still trying to find ways to rationalize why you should stay with your husband.

Hon, your not done til your done.

Best Wishes,

Rachel

Plan B scared the ****** back into me. I am now meeting all my wifes' emotional needs. I suggest going for it! You seem like you have nothing left to lose. My wifes' antithetical Plan A to talk things through with me failed, as did my reluctance to elaborate any details willingly; it wasn't until she grew so emotionally distanced from me and drawn to another (her Plan B) that I finally woke up. I am glad of the wake up call and second chance I am getting.

Cherishing,

I've never posted to you before, but I just wanted to share my experience of "emotional divorce" with you. I was a child of "emotionally divorced" parents. It was unbearable. I could see both my parents were unhappy, especially my mother. She told my father not to touch her anymore, to keep his distance & they both lived seperate lives. At the time, I would have rather have had them living apart than seeing them treat each other like that. It was very hard on all of us (I have 2 sisters). Whether you want to believe it or not, your children will take notice that something isn't right. This may affect your children negatively instead of positively. Staying "just for the kids" is not healthy.

My sister was a single mom since her daughter was 2. She made sure that her child was well loved & taught her independence mighty early. My niece, now 15, is very self-sufficient. She can run that house w/o my sister's presence & b/c of the feelings of self-worth that my sister taught her, she is a very happy child. This was all w/o even child support or visits from her absentee father.

You have to think about what you will be teaching your children if you decide to do this. W/O meaning to, I ended up treating my H like my mother treated my father all those years when my H wasn't acting like I thought a H should act.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best & most of all, I will pray that the decision is the best for you & your children.

God bless,

Hi Cherishing,
I've never posted to you before, but I'm living in a marriage of emotional divorce right now. Unfortunately, it is about as successful as the "detente" that the US practiced with the Soviet Union all through the cold war. Lots of fear, hatred, and little redemption. If you check my threads, you'll see that in just a short period of time, I've come to the conclusion that separate households, while financially excruciating, will probably be emotionally the most rewarding. I'm coming to the conclusion that I deserve better. Even if my WH is willing to stay in a love-less marriage, I don't think this is a good example for the children. Maybe things will work out, and your H will see the light. In my case, I think it's gone on so long that these emotions are imbedded--no hope of meaningful recovery. I will watch your thread to see what you report on your journey. Best wishes!

Hi Cherishing,

My thinking is.... you have already been living in an "emotionally divorced" marriage for a very long time.

The question is...how much longer?

Lady

Ladysheep,

The difference is that before I had hope that we could move to a marriage of intimacy. Now I recognize that that isn't going to happen.

Cherishing

Last week, our 6 year old created four drawings to tell a story. Here is how she explained it:
1) Dad angry (teeth gritted)
2) Dad with smoke (teeth gritted and a plume of smoke)
3) Dad with fire (teeth gritted and fire around his face)
4) Dad blew up (no head)

I want to spare the children this. Part of the problem is I am concerned if he blows up when I'm not there (and I already know that I have no case for supervised visitation). The kids try to keep us from talking with each other. I'm trying to gauge the practicality of sitting down and agreeing upon different lives while sharing the same house, especially if he is traveling several days per week. Not sure if this could work. My children already know our marriage is terrible. In fact, they like it when Dad is gone because then we don't fight. I've suggested he just take an apartment in San Francisco, which would be company-paid, rather than commute to San Francisco every week from Minnesota, but he won't. He says his life is in Minnesota. I just don't get what he is doing. He treats me terribly when he's here and then blames me for treating him badly. To him, the POJA is win for me and lose for him.

I'm past the point of fear, anger, or guilt. I just feel numb. He can fling anything at me, and it's like kicking a dead horse. I've been deadened to his criticism. "Bully". "Mean". "Selfish". "Demanding". He's probably said 100 things like this in the last week. After a while, the words lose their punch. They still hurt, of course, like it hurts after the 100th punch.

I don't know that I'd do anything until after Christmas, but he's going to realize pretty quickly that I've giving up trying to get him to spend time with me or go through the MB program. It's pointless. Harley gave up on him months ago. I was the one who kept at it, month after month after month, grasping at any faint praise or begrudging willingness to listen to a CD. It was pathetic. Four years since he broke my arm. Four years. What a waste.

And now I don't know what to do. I just know that trying to get him to work on a marriage of intimacy is not something I can be successful at doing. He's made the choice to stay married but he doesn't seem willing to work on creating the type of marriage I want. That leaves me with staying in a marriage that is not in any way satisfying except financially or stepping away into the unknown.

Cherishing

Get the heck out of that marriage! Yes, it will be hard on your children. Yes, it's going to be a hard struggle. However, if you stay in that marriage a big part of you is going to die. You don't want to become one of those mean, spiteful people who've been in a bad marriage for too long.

With all of your children, you are going to get a significant amount of child support. Your WH is going to have to pay a lot. If your state is anything like mine, you will probably have to get a fulltime job.

I work in an elementary school. Many of the women who work there have children at that school. It's not easy work but you really get to see what the school is about. My hours dovetail very well with my DD's. It's possible you can get into something like that. If your school has a preschool program, perhaps you could work similiar hours while your youngest attended that class.

The good thing is that days off and hours on the job are basically school hours. While the pay isn't great, the benefits are. Usually there's fairly reasonable health insurance. This is good, especially if WH drops you from his insurance. There's an excellent retirement plan. Personally, I only work 30 hours/week. This is considered full time. According to the lawyers, since the school district considers it fulltime, then it would fulfill the requirement for a 40 hours/week job. There are other positions that have less hours that help you get your foot in the door.

Look into it. My school district posts all of it's positions on the internet. It couldn't be easier to find a job.

Thanks in particular StandingTogether. "Emotional divorce" would rot the core out of me. Maybe there's something still there.

He called this afternoon from the airport and got upset at me again about being unfair -- and I told him I don't want decisions based on fairness because that's win-lose. I told him I want a physical separation.

His plane got in over an hour ago. No word. I'm not sure what to do. I feel cornered -- It doesn't seem likely that he's going to treat me as a teammate instead of a competitor, I can't stand living this way, emotional divorce isn't workable, and so now I don't know what to do...

Call? Try to POJA a separation? File?

JoyfullyCaring

Hi, just finished reading your thread. I post on Divorcing/Divorced now. My H had/still has an emotional affair with a married woman. Her husband does not have a problem with their "friendship."
I lived in an essentially loveless, sexless, emotionally divorced marriage for nearly a decade. This August I finally had my husband served with divorce papers, and a month later he moved into his own apartment.
We were emotionally divorced from about Feb. 1998 until I finally had him served. It was he** on our son and on me.

My advice: separate. He isn't willing to be married or to work on the marriage. Too much ego involved. He's emotionally and [has been]physically abusive to you. Steve Harley is right.

By the way, my H and I attended the parent-teacher conferences at our son's school together this year. His Algebra II teacher told us that he is doing better emotionally, holding it together in class. I see this as our son's reality now coincides with what he has seen for several years - that Mom and Dad are not married.

We are civil and polite to each other. We cooperate about driving to school with our son (He has a learner's permit and an adult needs to be in the car with him when he drives) and about when he spends time at our separate residences.

I was very worried about the long-term effects on him. But he seems less emotionally unstable now than he did before we split. Sometimes not living together can be better for the kids. It might be better for yours.

Bellevue,

"Emotional divorce", when truly considered, was such a non-starter that I can't believe I seriously considered it.

Cherished

He called this afternoon from the airport and got upset at me again about being unfair
Hi Cherished, What does he think you were being unfair about?

Lady

Cherished,

I was in an emotionally divorced marriage for years. Basically my WH but himself above his family in all ways. When we moved from NY to NJ, our house took several more months to finish than anticipated. The school system was going to charge us $80/day for our older two to go to school. I took the boys back to our home state and finished the school year there. During that time my WH lived with a single male friend and behaved as though he were single. I became depressed and decided since our kids were boys, they needed there dad and I didn't want to raise them in another state from him. I went back to NJ with the boys, but didn't come back with my heart, I had given up. The problems escalated, we were living seperate lives, my WH wasn't around and wasn't a positive role model that I hoped he would be.

In retrospect, I wish I had divorced him after the first A, definitely after the above. I think in that amount of time I could have found someone who would be a good stepdad and I could have been happy. The kids know and suffer, it isn't a good example for them. It is better that they see their mom be strong and independant rather than settling. The air will be strained between you and your H, this isn't what any of you need or want.

Good luck!

Ladysheep,

What is unfair is that I get to spend time with my family without him and he doesn't get to spend time with his family without me.

We had agreed that I could take our children two miles away to have a dinner with my parents tomorrow night. My parents won't see him since they found out he broke my arm. My parents are flying in from NJ and will be in the Twin Cities on Saturday night before they go to Rochester on Sunday afternoon. My father, who is 80, is having heart surgery at the Mayo Clinic on Tuesday and has been told that the risk of death is "nonzero."

In exchange, he wants to take the kids back to his hometown 200 miles away for about 5 days over New Years. We were there at Thanksgiving, and the trip wasn't enjoyable for me, so I said I don't want to return. His sister had Thanksgiving dinner at her house. She took it upon herself to spank our 6 year old for jumping on an air mattress -- both my husband and I were in the house at the time. That wasn't all, though. I just don't want to go back so quickly, so his solution is that he takes the kids without me and to him that's fair because I get to see my family without him.

It sounds pretty unbelievable, doesn't it? He stayed in a hotel last night. This morning, he let me know that he's willing to make other plans with me over New Years and that he was just asking the question about how it is fair. My response to the fairness question was that that was win-lose thinking. We need to find what works for both. He said that it always has to be my way.

Cherished

Hi Cherished, so he spent the night in a hotel last night, instead of coming home?

I am really surprised thier Aunt spanked your 6 yrs old. Did you or your H say anything to her?

I don't know but it seems it wouldn't be a good idea to let the children alone on a trip with him, without you.

It really is understandable that your parents wouldn't be inviting his company. They are elderly and don't need the stress. I'm sure what he did to you bothers them alot.

Anyway....it seems he changed his mind this morning, as you say he is willing to make other plans with you over New Years. What does he mean by that?

I don't like the many names he has called you over the past few days that you mentioned in the earlier post.

Is he home for the weekend, if so what is he doing, how is his demeneor?

Lady

He said he felt humiliated and asked if he could come home. He was at work today so he hasn't been home yet.

Neither of us said anything to the aunt. Whether or not my parents are being unreasonable to not want to see him, there's nothing either of us can do about their decision.

We'll see what happens. I asked that we not discuss New Years until after my father's surgery. I also asked that he not bring up anything negative about my character but focus on my behavior.

I think I had to get to the point where separation isn't something that I would be loathe to avoid.


Cherished

He said he felt humiliated and asked if he could come home.
Did he feel humiliated because you asked him for a physical seperation?

I think you made the right decision to not discuss New Years until after the surgery...and by the way, I hope his surgery goes well, and you all have a nice visit/dinner together tomorrow.

Lady

He said he felt humiliated because he was so angry that he had to stay in a hotel, but we enjoyed taking the kids to a Santa's Breakfast this morning. Maybe my willingness to cope affected my ability to care. Maybe it had to get to the point where I asked for a separation.

Cherished