WH (FWW) doesn't seem remorseful at all. He still says things like "you brought on a lot of your stuff", just not as often as before. He gives me a hard time about counseling or doing anything good for the marriage. E.G. dates, following plans from Retrouvaille, reading his needs/her needs. I don't do anything other than ask him to do these things. I admit that I ask very rarely. When he came home from the last seperation in August, he begrudgingly agreed to do whatever it takes to fix the marriage. I suspect that I should have told him to stay gone, but I didn't think the marriage could be saved with him at his parents house.

When I confronted him last night about his refusal to go to MC, I told him that I thought it was important. He refused because he says I didn't give him enough notice. I had seen the MC for the last 5 times by myself and I had talked to MC about going with H this time. MC thought it was a good idea so I went home and told H that MC was for both of us. My H has gone to this counselor but mostly on his own. Only twice have we gone together. I stated my opinion of going and that I was tiring of his minimalist approach to improving the M. I probably LB'd big time but I am quickly getting real sick of his attitude, like he did nothing wrong and that he is so put out by being with me. Of course, he denies that is how it is but I think people show you by their actions more than their words. Especially, WS's.

Where do I go from here? I don't want to end the marriage nor do I want to continue on like this forever.

btw, my H and I have only had SF twice since august. Is that a normal part of recovery and withdrawal?

Loni

BS 38(me)
WS 38 (him)
DS 18 DD 14 DS 13
Together 21+, Married 18,
OW 34 (my former friend) EA 18mos. Ended by her 5/05, NC? 9/05. (H says that it was just HI and BYE then.)

When I'm reading what you wrote I see a husband who doesn't want to be responsible for participating in the recovery of his marriage.

Hi Loni, sorry to hear your situation is not improving as fast as you want it to. I agree with AskMe that it really doesn't sound live recovery yet. That doesn't mean you have to give up though.

What do you have planned over Christmas?

Doesn't sound like you have a very enthusiastic partner in rebuilding you M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Continue working on the M anyway. Regardless of the outcome you will feel better for having done your absolute best.

Unfortunately it seems to be the pattern of WS's that the BS has to put forth most of the effort to heal the M in the begining. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully he will come around soon and really start to help you with this.

It does also sound like withdrawl / depression. It my have been eating at him since the Hi / Bye contact. Can you convince him to go in for a checkup?

Stay strong.

He admits to being depressed but absolutely refuses to take medication for it. I take antidepressants since the A and his general thinking is that you have to be weak to need meds.

I feel like my giver is wearing out and my taker is trying to be heard. I try to satisfy my taker with things that are not part of the marriage, like friends, massages etc... I have just begun to really feel frustrated with his lack of participation.

I am still hanging in there and trying to be the best wife and mother that I can be without being needy and clingy. I have to continue with the loving detachment. He seems to respond better to that. The more I act like nothing fazes me, the more responsive he seems to be. The problem is...walking that fine line between doormat and respectable detachment. I have been enforcing my boundaries as to disrespectful statements and angry outburst from him by standing up and either challenging the statement or stating that when he can talk to me without yelling or insulting, I will be more than happy to listen, then walking away.

What do you think?

PS...our DD is playing volleyball with her DD on the school team. How do I approach his continueing NC without appearing like I am bossing him or being the meany in my DD's opinion? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Loni

This is a very typical male reaction. I struggle with that attitue myself sometimes.


Only just begun? I would have become frustrated long before this. LoL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Keep hanging in there. I really suspect that he is in withdrawl. This is good news. After He works through this he will be much more receptive to working on the M.

I think that it is very important to prevent any, even accidental, contact. That just resets the "withdrawl" clock and drags the issue out for everyone.



The sitch with the DD: You should insist that you take her to the games / practices. Don't take the WS along. There is too great a chance of "accidental" contact.

You ARE NOT being mean or controlling. You are fighting to heal your M.

You can not control how they interpet this. You can explain your reasons to them. Given the history of what has happened before this is a very reasonable request.

Stay Strong.

Loni, how are the meds working for you? I'm seriously thinking of going on AD's even though I think I'm starting to feel better. I still am anxious many times and need help focusing on other things besides my WW.


I know exactly what you mean. This is where you really need to continue doing things for yourself. Try not to be indignant towards him since it will make him feel justified in his treatment of you.


It is a hard line to follow but you can do it.


Yes, aploogize for things you did or didn't do that contributed to the M breakdown, but do not take blame for false fabrications.

Thank you so much. It is so hard sometimes to not get mired in the fog with them. I am so ready, after almost 2 years, to feel like a couple again. Patience has never been my best trait so it is a real struggle. I can't believe I still love this guy. He must have been a really decent husband before the A because my LB is still not empty. Even after some very huge withdrawals.

I am hanging in there. Our anniversary is Monday. #18. I want to celebrate because we are still married and living in the same house. I feel like celebrating survival because celebrating our love for each other seems phony. I deserve at least a drink. Don't cha think? lol.

HTW, in response, I am on Cymbalta and it is an antidepressant and a antianxiety mixed. It really helps. I take it at night, however because it tended to make me drowsy if I took it in the am. It's new, so if you're interested you will have to ask about it by name.

Thanks again. I will keep trying to keep my eyes on the prize and not the marathon ahead.

Loni

I think he is in depression and withdrawal. And you are in depression from his withdrawal from the M..and his being a WS.

Both depressions compliment each other btw.

It took a long while for me to "get that"...and I do now.

My xh is very depressed. He even resorted this year to going out and doing extacy a good bit. I found that out...let's just say my lawyer knows...and when it's court time..that is not good.

I hurt for my xh. He never changed. Kept CHOOSING to shovel and dig himself further into a self imposed pit of despair.

Your H is doing that. He is sad. He found "instant happiness" or what he thought it was with the OW. He felt only a dopamine rush honey. That is all the man had. And you must keep him away from the pusher...aka, the woman who causes that rush..she is always to be associated with the "rush" feeling...if he's to get thru it.

Now for you. I liked lexapro. It worked wonders for me! It made me well...comfortable. Not quite numb, but alble to think and work thru my life reasonably. I didn't get sleepy. I just thought and was a whole lot more quiet than I normally am.

I see my patients who take it do quite well also. It seems to also "in the bedroom area" have less side effects too...and that area is darn important if your M is to heal! How about handing the man a dose of your own dopamine ok?

I am more now to think that if my man is not responding..or things get a little ho hum..that I should just load up a dose of dopamine courtesy of victoria's secret...and give the boy a shot! But heck...I will have to be finally in a totally 100 percent committed relationship to do that.

Maybe by new year. Who knows!

Just do NOT give up!

Haven't seen you post for a while, Loni. How are things going? Making plans for the Aniv?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> My wife knows how reluctant I am to make approintments and go to the Dr's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes she makes appointments for me and tells me when I need to be there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That's when I know that I really need to see the Dr. I smile, say Thank you Dear, and go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How would your H respond to something like this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hi guys,

It's been a busy week and this is my 1st chance to check in.

The anniversary was the best one I have had in 3 years. We didn't do anything. It was just the way my H talked to me and how he treated me. The night before, he actually spooned me until he fell asleep. He hasn't done that for as long as I can remember. In fact, the last time, I think, was when I was crying over the affair and he was repentant for hurting me.

The next morning, our anniversary, he kissed me 4 times, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> told me he loved me, told me happy anniversary, and to have a wonderful day. That afternoon, when I got home from work, he had bought me flowers and insisted on giving them to me rather than letting me just find them on the counter. I had wanted to go out to dinner but he begged off because he felt tired. I was a little disappointed but I wasn't going to let it get to me.

Since then, he has been sweet and kind. We had one little disagreement over something he said that sounded like a bit of the fog returning, but it was over quickly and no after effects were noticeable.

One potential problem is looming on the horizon...As I have said before, my dd and her dd play on the freshman volleyball team. If the jv coach quits, like she is threatening, the freshman coach will move up to her position. They are talking about hiring the OW to coach the freshman squad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Let's just pray that doesn't happen because I can not and will not allow the OW to be in a position of authority over any of my children. Not to mention that I don't want the OW to have any reason to call me or my H on the pretense of team business.

I'm sure you see my dilemma.

Still hangin
Loni

Loni, how do you like the rollercoaster ride so far? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Today things seem to be going well for you and I'm so happy to hear that. Just remember this is a long process and it may turm bad again for a while.

It must feel great to have your WH meet some of your most important EN's. It probably fills up you LB$ pretty quick I bet.

What options do you have if the OW becomes your dd's coach?

Good to hear from you Loni.

I'm glad that the Anniversery went well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't sweat the coach situation too much. It hasn't happened yet and may not.

If it does occur you still have options. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stay Strong.

Hi,

The rollercoaster is one h377 of a ride. It is wearing me out with all the ups and downs.

This morning I had a difficult time with my DD 14, she wants her dad to go to the volleyball games that the OW will be attending also. She also feels that I am being difficult by not wanting her dad to take her to practice or pick her up. She says that she trusts her dad and I should too. She also said that I am causing the problems by not trusting him and by having him on a "short leash". I tried to stay calm and tell her that the goal is to reunite our family and that her dad having contact with the OW makes that more difficult. She ended us yelling at me and telling me that I start everything and we were both crying before I dropped her off at school.

This is frustrating me to no end. Doesn't she remember the last 2 years? Doesn't she remember her dad leaving 4 times because he "loved her" so much? I honestly feel like just giving up and saying that they can just do whatever they want and to h377 with it. Let the crap fall where it may.

My H is acting better. However, he wants to go to the volleyball game tomorrow instead of MC. I told him that I feel stupid because it doesn't seem like he wants to work things out. He says he does but he doesn't see how MC is helping and things are OK since we aren't fighting. Sure, we aren't fighting but we also are barely communicating, I don't trust him, we still aren't having any SF, he still hasn't even kissed me with passion. We haven't even begun to put the recovery plan as per Dr. Harley, into effect.

I was going to talk with my H tonight. I was going to tell him that I think the MC sessions are important even though they aren't easy and that I wish for us to go tomorrow and every wednesday till we are back on track. That I understand how he wants to see our DD play vball and that he is an adult and can make his own decisions but to really consider how seeing her affects our marriage, my feelings and his own. I also wanted to say that I need something from him in the order of consideration when we are around her. Such as, staying by me instead of wandering around. I don't expect PDAs, although that would make me feel better to get a little kiss or have my hand held so she could see it. This is all something I wanted to discuss with the MC present but if he refuses to go then I am on my own.

What do you think?

Last night when he told me he was going to watch the game instead of going to MC, I really felt like I had made the wrong choice in continuing the M. My cousin asked me a year ago, Why do you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you? Sometimes, I tell myself that I should have cut my losses and ran. Our M will never be the same. I will never trust him like I did and he isn't the same man to me anymore. I loved the man he used to be.

It makes me so angry that he has done this. Gee, do you think that I still have some forgiving to do? Will I ever be able to really forgive him and even her? I don't know. The radio played a song from the year 2000 and I thought about how nice things were back then. I was really happy and so relaxed with my family around me. Do you, or did you ever consider just throwing in the towel and starting over with someone new? I know I can't be the only one.

anyway, back to work.
Loni

Loni,



We all feel this way sometimes. Don't give in to the temptation.




Remember that he is living with you and has likely been working on "damage control" with your DD. Putting his "spin" on events. He may even be manipulating her to get you to allow him access to his "fix" (OW).




Remember what I just said about Damage control and spin?




It's a good thing that he wants to be active with his DD. But I read a couple of alterear motives. 1.) Get "fix" by seeing OW. 2.) Avoiding the consequences of his actions, ie skipping the MC session. Neither of the alterear motives are helpful in recovering your M. If he wants to see your DD play, ask someone in the audience if you could get a copy of their camcorder tape.




Lack of communication is fertile soil for an A. He needs to go the MC to help him open up to you. It may be uncomfortable for both of you but you must open communications if you are to get over this.




No, you did not. WS is being obstinate and is in Me only mode (an unfortunatly common state the WS and FWS seem to be stuck in). What you are asking of him is the bare minimum that he needs to do to start recovery. You have made no outrageous demands.




Right on target. You should talk to him about this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




Yes, you will be able to forgive both of them in time. YOUR recovery depends on this. It doesn't mean you have to forget what they've done to you and your family.

Remember that you still have the trump card if all the extracarricular sports are creating to much stress / temptation. DD of course will not like this but YOU are fighting to save a marriage. This is much more important than any high school sport DD is involved in.

Stay Strong.

Thanks for the input, WTF. It's hard to stay on track sometimes when there is so much to throw me off.

I am going to talk to my H tonight and I refuse to discuss this with my DD anymore. If he doesn't go to her games, he can tell her and also tell her why. I guess the best idea for dealing with her is to maintain a mantra of what is good for our marriage is good for our family and is good for her in the long run.

May God put His hand in this and keep me focused and strong.
Loni

My H and I talked like I had wanted. He still seems to have fog issues since he still tries to tell me that our problems are not about the A. I did ask him why the A is over. He thought about it for the longest time. He said he had never been asked that before. After about 5 minutes of very awkward silence, he finally said that it was over because being with two women is wrong and that he needed to do the right thing. Not exactly the most wonderful response I would have liked to hear.

We talked about attending the v-ball games where the OW will be attending. I asked him if watching our dd was the only reason he wanted to go. He asked what I meant and got a little snippy. I just point blank asked if he was hoping to see her. He assured me that it was only to watch our dd. He said "you don't want me to go." I replied that I am not him mom and he is an adult and can make his own decisions. I told him that I become very tense and nervous when he is somewhere that she is also there. I said that I know he likes to wander around rather than sit still and I don't want to feel like I am on the lookout for them having contact. He looked me in the eye and asked, sarcastically, if I was just going to take some more pills since that is what I do when I can't handle something. I looked him in the eye, too, and replied that that was a low blow and I see it as his attempt to shut down the conversation. He said that what I did was stupid and hurt him and could have hurt our kids forever. I said that I know and that's why I changed my mind and also why I am working on taking care of me. I also said that I don't have the corner on doing hurtful things. That we have both been hurt and his affair hurt me more than I had ever hurt before. I then said that I didn't want to talk so we could rehash the same things over again. I wanted to come to some agreements and understanding.

Anyway, at the end of the evening, he told me that he was not interested in going to MC again since he won't talk to him anyway and what good would it do. I disagreed but told him that it was his choice to make. I also said that I can't and won't settle for doing nothing to improve our marriage. That our marriage and our children are too important to just let go. I told him that either we go to MC weekly or we do the Harley recommended recovery plan. I asked which he wanted. He told me he would tell me in the morning so I let it go.

In the morning, he told me, after I asked, that he would do the book. I said fine. He asked if I was going to go the MC and I said that I wouldn't because I don't wish to go alone for something that involves both of us. So anyway, MC is cancelled until further notice.

Last night, I could really tell that I had been off my meds for awhile. I am back on them by the way after only 3 days. I went to dd's v'ball game alone. I sat with some friends and the OW sat two people away from me and talked through out the entire game. She coached an intramural team and believes herself to be an expert, so she was giving pointers to the players. Everyone except my DD, good choice since I wouldn't tolerate her telling my dd anything. I was upset though because I couldn't help thinking about my H being with her and telling her all the crap that BS's and OPs say. I didn't let her see me upset and put on an indifferent face. But my stomach was sick and I just wanted to cry all the way home.

I did cry that night after I went to bed. I told my H that I had been off my AD for a few days and to just disregard the emotional outlook I was showing right now. I told him that I just had a rough evening and felt vulnerable. I wanted him to comfort me but that didn't happen. He asked why my evening was rough but he asked in a knowing and snippy way. I said that I had to see her and that leaves me not feeling so well. He asked "why, did she look nice?" I said that she looked like her and I didn't appraise her. He asked "why so rough then?" I replied that I kept thinking that maybe he loved her more than me and that hurt. I know....stupid!!! I shouldn't have said anything. I cried and that wasn't the best either. Like I said, I could tell that my meds needed to be restarted because I felt so depressed.

This morning, I told him that I was sorry for crying and not to worry too much about it since I am fine.

By the way, he did say that he loves me but he didn't say that he loves me more. No surprise there.

Am I expecting too much or am I settling for too little? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Loni

What do you think about me trying to seduce my own H with flirting and looking hot all the time.? That is how she attracted him to her and I know that he was ripe for an affair before she was around but don't you think I could fight fire with fire? He used to think I was pretty and used to want SF all the time. It has been over 2mos since the last SF.

A lot depends on how that would make you feel. If your doing it to make yourself feel attractive then go for it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If it will make you feel used then I would avoid it.

Sorry for the ambigious answer but you are the best person to answer it. I see nothing wrong with fighting fire with fire in this case.