H agreed to follow the agreement for marital recovery as Dr. Harley presents in "Surviving an Affair". He read the agreement last night. He didn't say anything about it but when we went to bed, I asked if he was going to follow it. He said he's looking at it. I said that isn't what I asked. "I asked, are you going to follow it?" He said "yes, I will follow it." I smiled and hugged him and told him that it was very good. He kind of half smiled and said "good night".

Again, 2 steps forward. Hopefully, the next step back will be a small one and quickly followed by another 2 forward.

By the way, the meds have kicked back in and I am feeling much more positive and encouraged.

Loni

Your interactions about the v-ball game and just after have the ear marks of a potential false recovery in the making.

Hopefully, the AD's will help you gain back your self-confidence. He is with you and not her at the moment.

You might consider ordering the MB home study program. It may help to follow the whole recovery plan since he doesn't want to do MC. How are you doing with the 15 hours per week together?

edited to add that I think NC for life is imperative. Your DD needs to understand that...maybe read her that in Surviving and A...I am assuming she knows and wants you two to stay married.

This is good news. I just wish he was a little more enthusicastic about it. You're probably going to have to press him a bit to actually implement the plan. Be consistant and firm.




This is the way recoery goes (except when it's a big step back). I hope your forward momentun continues. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad your feeling better. Meds work best when user consistantly. I'm sure that LM could write us a dissertation on that!

Stay Stong!

Trix, I agree that NC is imperative and I think that forever isn't nearly long enough. Our DD knew about the A before I did. She has been through him leaving and returning and leaving and returning. She has even had a couple of verbal altercations with the OW.

I really hope that we are in or on our way into recovery but I wonder. Hence my post title. I have the books and I will check into the Home Study program. We have lots of work to do and I can't stand for him to remain stagnant any longer. How far do I go to encourage his participation? How do I stand firm without giving ultimatums or LBing?

Trying to figure this all out.
Loni

When we entered real recovery my H was very remorseful,repentant, willing to do anything, actively worked on recovery, and answered all questions etc.. (We also went to Retrovaille but had a false recovery after that anyway. We went to a Harville 'Getting the Love You Want' seminar before that and still had another yet false recovery). (That A lasted on and off from end of '94 to mid-'98)...I read HNHN towards the end of that A but he wasn't interested in reading it.

When we were early (end of 2002 beginning of 2003) in this last recovery (after an additional 8 month A which ended in Dec. '02) we went to the MB Weekend and did the follow up program together.

I was questioning my judgement in forgiving him yet again...but our marriage is better today than pre-A('s). The MB followup program and home study course uses both HNHN and the book Love Busters...along with a study guide and tapes for each chapter.

That isn't a fog issue. You and he have problems that pre-dated the A. When he says it again, say something like, "I agree that there are problems in the M separate and apart from the A. That is why MC is so important. Those problems have to be fixed."

What is fog are statements like, "The A isn't the problem."

Trix said it all right there. That is the prize if you get through this. It is worth all the effort you put into it.

Stay Strong!

Thanks Trix, Jimmy and WTF. I am working hard at this and sometimes I need to remember that it can be worth it. I really helps to hear stories like Trix's. We have 18yrs of marriage, 3 kids, a home, friends, family and a relationship that was pretty great until we both made some really stupid choices. I try to look into my H's eyes and remember the man he was before. How he acted with me and others. I hope he's still in there somewhere.

I have scanned the Agreement for Marital Recovery from the appendix in "surviving an affair". It's time to put the rubber to the road and sign it and do it. I don't want 2006 to be like 2004 and 2005. By the way, the anniversary of the first D-day is December 23rd 2003. I spent Christman eve and Christmas day sobbing. On that day, he told me that he didn't think he loved me anymore and that he didn't think he wanted to be married anymore. Among other hurtful things. I found out he had feelings for her on Feb 2nd 2004.

I got through the last anniversary and I will get through this one. I am vowing to myself that this will be the last Christmas of me doing this. We will either be well on our way in recovery next year or we will be apart. I won't spend another year with this.

Gotta go and see the H
Loni

What do I do now?

He says it's over. He refused to sign the agreement. He yelled and said he did what he could do and that was all he was doing. He said that I will be awful to him and he is here for the kids.

He flip flopped between he's going to work on the M and he isn't doing this anymore. He says he refuses to live under my thumb with avoiding the OW. He says this will go on for years. I said that I don't want it to go on for years. That it will if he chooses to do nothing on the marriage. If we work through the process like in Surviving an Affair, we could be much better in months.

Why won't he sign the agreement? Is it because it's in writing. He swears the A has been over for months and the last contact was in september when they said "hi" at a football game. I asked if he could get over the affair when he told me I wouldn't. He said that he didn't know because it's more than just the relationship with the OW. He was referring to all the other stuff like exposure and everything that has been said by both of us.

I feel so stupid for wanting to believe that it could be OK. I don't want to love him anymore. It hurts too much. I wanted him to tell me that it's going to be OK. He won't. He tells me that i will be OK. He told me to quit when I began to cry. He didn't comfort me. He says that "it's not there". He says he cares for me. He says he loves me. I can't believe him. His actions tell me so much more.

I don't want a divorce. But, I don't want this. I want my husband back. I can't seem to stop crying. He yelled at me 10 minutes ago because I wouldn't go to sleep. He got dressed and threatened to leave. He was screaming in my face and backing me up against the sink. I had enough. I stood my ground and went nose to nose with him. I yelled back to not yell at me and to not bully me into doing what he wants. Our DD woke up and told her dad that he's a jerk. Asked him why he couldn't just do what he said he would do? He stalked downstairs and started looking for his keys. I asked him not to leave and talk with me. He says he's done talking. He said he was sorry he ever married me because I'm a psycho. I started to cry and told him that I'm not sorry that I married him because I have 3 kids out of the deal and I have learned how to be a better wife so maybe the next time I try marriage I will be a fantastic wife to him. He apologized for saying that and that no matter how he feels right now, he didn't feel that way when he married me.

He looked at me so cold and angry. He said that I win. He will stay and be miserable and pretend to everyone that he's happy and I will be happy because I will get what I want by having him home. He paced around the house for awhile. I asked him if we could manage to stay together thru christmas so the holiday wouldn't be ruined for the kids. He just mumbled something. He just went to bed and told me to come to bed. I told him I will be up in awhile and that he would rather I wasn't up there anyway. He says he doesn't care that I am up there.

I don't know, maybe I should sleep on the sofa.
Loni

Next time he does that, let him leave. Your holding him when he is being a true blue WS is creating unecessary stress in your family. If he claims no contact, then why the anger? If he claims no A then why the hatret?

Nope, he is lying to you, himself and the world. You now the saying 'you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' Let him know he isn't fooling everyone by his actions.

NOTE: The more he wobbles in his thoughts, the better for you. See an unsteady WS is a good thing. The stability you want is for your H not the WS.

BTW, all that babble you just wrote? My Xws told me the same thing. Yea, it hurt then I babbled back. Put him in his place because my H would never have allowed anyone to speak such vulgarity to me. Reverse babbling put it all back in his lap and off my shoulders. He later apologized and I didn't minimize the event, instead I simply said, I hear your apology......then when I was ready I told him I accept his apology..... I did not force myself to accept an apology when it made me angry. He wasn't gonna get off the hook that easily.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Orchid,

It does hurt like ****. I know that I will not be the 3rd point of a triangle. I refuse to spend another year living like this.

When he leaves, I feel devastated. I know that I should be stronger than that. I am not scared of being alone. I just don't want to see my family put through a D. I don't want it and I am willing to work my butt off to prevent it. I know that he needs to put the effort in too. It is frustrating that he drags his feet on even the smallest step in the right direction.

When I went to bed last night. He pulled me close to him and held me. What is that? Was he asleep? I can't read anything into it. This morning he is quiet and told me that he isn't leaving. So what is the next step? He said he will read the book. Do I just leave the book out where he can find it and let him be? Do I go back to lovingly distancing myself from him?

I am pretty worn out and confused right now. If I find out the A is going on, I will plan B immediately. I will make myself stick to it and I will probably be on the site 20 times a day for support.

Loni

I quess I went out of the fire and into the frying pan.

He talked about leaving and how I would be better off without him. He asked if I ever think of that. I said I have thought about it and I still choose him and our marriage. I told him that our marriage is the most important thing to me and the kids. I asked him if the a happy marriage was the best gift we could give our children and he agreed. He said he isn't going anywhere. He kissed me goodbye and went for a drive.

I could be wrong, but I really think the A is over. I just seem to sense it. He seems to be more put out that he has lost his OW and things still aren't great between us. I suspect he thinks that his feelings for me will magically grow and our marriage will be fine. Or he really thinks that it is no use because he says his feelings aren't there for me anymore and I don't believe he thinks they can return no matter what we do. How can I show him there is hope without shoving this site or the books down his throat?

He is having a very hard time dealing with the fact that so many people know what happened. He has very bad feeling toward me about this. I know that is part of the WS mentality. He can't or won't see that his actions have caused him this discomfort. I can't help but be thankful that so many people in this small town know what happened because that really helped to end the affair. The spotlight was too intense for her and they were both taking a lot of grief for their actions and for hurting their kids and spouses. I wish that it hadn't been necesary for anyone to know because I am also under the magnifying glass. People either feel sorry for me or they think I must be some kind of witch to chase my H to another woman. You know how people think. Something nice has come out of this and that is I have learned to not really care what others think of me. I am out to please God and take care of my family to the best of my ability. If I do those things then I can have self-respect. I used to care too much and it showed in how I spent money and what my priorities were.

My H is out picking up my son from a friends house right now. Our DD is upset with him for how he was acting last night and for threatening to leave again. He came home from his drive and she wasn't speaking to him. Of course, he accused me of saying something to her to make her mad at him. I just told him to talk with his DD. I didn't talk with her about anything other than asking her if she was OK. She did ask me if I had an idea what was going to happen and I told her that I didn't have a clue but I was worried. I did try to tell her that we will be OK regardless. I know we will eventually.

Hanging on to hope at the bottom of the roller coaster,
Loni

Loni - Have you read Hurting in Oklahoma's thread about what we all need to read? Check it out. Starfish always has great advice, and this is what worked for her.

FOG BABBLE! He is having problems dealing with his own guilty conscience. He can't believe that you will forgive him for this. You have to keep reassuring him that both of you CAN get through this.



Typical, very typical behavior for WS. The good news is that he wavers between the two. In the beginning / activly during the affair there would be no wavering. It would simply be I'm leaving.



He's in withdrawl! The junkie needs his fix. But like the alcoholic or junkie he can't control himself! ANY contact with the OP would be like restarting the habit again. Do not waver on the NC.



He is right. This will go on for years until he is willing to work on the M with you. You are also correct, If he works with you, you could be through this much more quickly.



He's afraid that he might fail. He doesn't want you to have something else to "hold over him". Typical WS / FWS thought patterns.



Typical WS / FWS thought patterns. He's afraid that you will always "hold over him". You have to keep reassuring him that both of you CAN get through this. Long story short he's afraid that you would forgive him (I suspect that he is having a hard time forgiving himself).



FOG BABBLE! Everything you have done so far has been in an effort to save your marriage. Keep up the good work and stay on the high road!



Don't give up. He's pushing you away to prove to himself that you can't forgive him. He's testing YOU and your commitment to save the marriage. Don't waver. Remember the prize at the end of all this.


He's testing YOU and your commitment to save the marriage. Don't waver. Remember the prize at the end of all this.



Don't give in. Don't make this easy for him. He's still trying to avoid the real consequences of his actions. Comeing clean with YOU. WS & FWS's will do almost anything to avoid this.



He has meet a boundry and was unable to bully you out of it. He will respect you for that. Excellent work! Stay firm on your boundries.

BTW: Give thanks for your DD saying that to WS / FWS. It will help bring him around faster when he realizes the effect that this is having on his children.



FOG BABBLE! Give these comments all the consideration that they are due: NONE! You tried to speak reasonably with him and he spewed this venom back at you.



Excellent turnaround! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Also good work on interjecting a little reality into his fantasy world. It's amazing how long the WS / FWS can hold onto these fantasys.



There, you got to see just a little peak at your lost husband again. He's there just buried under the WS / FWS personality. The more he is willing to work on the M the more often you will see him.



Pure unadultered FOG BABBLE!


I hope this is of some comfort: I don't think that WS / FWS is actively in an affair with OW right now. I think that he is in deep withdrawl and it lashing out because he desperatly needs his fix.

Stay Strong!

I am still here. He is still here. Do I push the agreement? I am thinking that I just reinforce how strongly I feel about it. I also listened to you WTF. I think he is very concerned that I will use it against him if he messes up again. It's like he doesn't want to be pinned down to a real commitment. How can I encourage him in the MB direction without forcing his hand? In the past, I could always flirt and seduce him. I was expert at cajoling him with affection and, yes, sex. I'm not proud of it. I have learned more about being a good wife since then.

Should I tell him that I am happy he hasn't given up on us and can be a really happy couple once we have healed and move past all the hurt? Should I leave him alone for a few days?

He called this morning from work before I left for the hospital (where I am a nurse). He told me he loved me before he said goodbye. He said it first and I responded in kind. Tonight he has been quiet but not like yesterday. I can tell when he is thinking about leaving because he gets really quiet and tends to linger around me while he works up the nerve to tell me he is leaving. It sucks that I know the MO by now. No wife should have to know what her husband is like right before he leaves her.

I think tonight I will just be as positive and upbeat as I can. I am working on meeting his ENs. I think that I have the top 5 figured out since he won't tell me what they are.
'
1. Affection
2. Physical Attractiveness
3. Domestic Support
4. Financial Support
5. Admiration

I don't have them in order but I am relatively sure that these are the most important to him. Right now I am working on being attractive, taking care of our home and being responsible about the finances. He won't let me show him affection and he doesn't seem to accept any admiration from me. I guess it must be hard for him to believe that he is admirable when he has acted so unadmirable.

Believer, thanks for the heads up. I will check out that thread.

WTF, You really helped me today. I was beginning to believe all the babble and forget that I know better. I am keeping my eye on the prize and that is the restoration of love between my H and myself and the restoration of our family.

Loni

I just read the christmas post from star*fish. It is so true. I plan on making this holiday the beginning of a year of making myself and my children as happy as I can. I don't have to live in limbo. I have so many projects I want to do on my home. Time to get busy.

Thanks Hurtinginokla.
Loni

Loni,

I don't have much time to post tonight. Water in the barn is frozen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (again). I'll try to have a more coherent post for you tomorrow.

Stay Strong!

My H told me last night that he is going to our DD's game today. I asked him how he would maintain NC when he knows she will be there. He responded by saying that he had an idea..."How about I grab some walkie talkies and you can let me know if she's there or not and maybe tell me where she is and which door to come in and how to get to my seat without getting close to her?" I just looked at him for a minute and then I said that I was being serious and I need him to be serious too. He wouldn't be serious though. I asked him how he was going to avoid her and he said "the same way I avoid you." I responded, "that was mean".

I just let it go after that. He seemed sweet when he came to bed. He was also nice to me this morning. What I am not looking forward to is how he will act aloof with me at the game and not "with" me. Not to mention that she will be there and he will get his "fix".

I almost don't want to go to the game myself. I think that what I will do is put on the face of happiness and act as though I don't care. I will not hang on him or expect him to even act like my husband in front of the others. I will be cheerful and talk with my friends that are there. I do want to ask him to sit away from her and not wander around for the 45 minutes of the game.

What else can I do?
Loni

You can't push the agreement. He has to want to work on this or it will be a futile and useless excersize. This is the hardest part of all; Waiting for FWS to be ready to work on the M. Reinforce how strongly you feel about this. We still can't force them to work but we can not allow them to pretend that "they didn't realize how important it was to you".



He doesn't. He is still clinging to the fantasy that he can have it all ( You, The Children, & the OM). It's very frustrating how long the FWS can hold onto that fantasy.



In my experience, Plan A is the best way. It is a slow but steady way to make progress and creates an atmosphere where he can feel safe reattaching himself to you.

I think that he is really having trouble forgiving himself at this point. This is an important point for his recovery from this. He has to work this out on his own. An IC may be able to help him through this. Sometimes just a good friend (NOT THE OW) could help him through this.



ABSOLUTLY! He needs encouragement to move in the right direction.



I would not. I suspect that he'll start to feel sorry for himself (typical FWS me mode!) and work himself into not wanting to work on the M again. He may decide that your "giving him space" means that you don't care anymore. Don't allow him to fall into that depression. It'll just set you back again.



See? Another little glimpse of your H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



He's struggling internally to try and justify the unjustifyable. Don't make it easy for him. He may try to goad you into a fight so you'll kick him out. Don't let him! This is a technique the WS / FWS use to justify their actions.



I couldn't agree with you more! The good news is that you can read his moods and anticipate what he might do. This allows you to prepare for the possible outcome and not have to react to his actions. This puts you in a much better position to deal with him. As a matter of fact I bet that you have a better idea of what he is going to do than he does.



A good plan of action. It's a pity that he wount communicate better but as I stated above I think that you know him better than he knows himself at this point.



BULLSEYE! I think thats the biggest issue at this point. I wish I had some nugget of wisdom that could propel him past this, but this is something that he has to work out himself. All you can do is be supportive.



I'm a very firm believer in NC. It's like an addict flirting with his addiction. Stand firm! He should not go to that game! He is playing with fire and he will burn his entire family! He forfieted that right to go when he started up with the OW.



That was WS in control. See how he turns when he thinks about getting a chance to see her? This is why I am such a believer in NC EVER.



Good choice. Good plan A stuff, no LB'ing. Good choice all around. He was trying to pick a fight.



That was just another glimpse of your H.



Let him know that you will not accept this type of treatment from him in public. It is hurtfull and disrepectfull to you.



You have to go is he is going. Unfortunatley he has set this up so that you are in control of his NC. And it will be YOUR fault if you let him see OW. I know this sucks but it is just a little peek into the thought process of the WS.



Put on a happy face but be happy inside. He gets to see DD play. Do not allow him to treat you as "second best" in public. Make this one of your boundries. He will respect it if you enforce it. If you allow him to walk over you in public he will never respect it. In no way are you "second best" your are his W and he is your H. Do not settle for anything less than that respect. Talk to your friends but make sure to drag him along with you. Do not allow WS / FWS & OW to speak. It will only set you both back.



Pray for a quick end to the Volleyball season? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I think that these extra caricular sports events are causing a lot of unnecessary strain for you and your M. WS / FWS sees them as an opportunity to get his "fix". Have you noticed how he swings into WS mode when it is game night?

Just a suggestion but... You may want to look into sports where OW will not be in attendance. Even if you have to sign her up with a gymnatics / karate / etc... club elsewhere. A big part of the enjoyment of sports for the kids is being able to "hang" with their friends. Perhaps you can find something that DD would like to try and that OW will not be in attendence.

Hi WTF,

How's the barn?

I can't agree more with the NC rule. I will talk with him tonight again and really reinforce my boundaries as far as how I want to be treated and how I feel about NC. Then it is up to him. I will also tell him that he can help me relax about him being there by not wandering around and making himself open to contact with her.

The problem that I see with the school sports is that there is only one team per sport. If she is in softball e.g., then she will be on the JV team since freshman aren't allowed to be on varsity and there is not a freshman team. Softball is one of her best sports and she takes a lot of enjoyment out of playing. If I tell her she can't play because of the sitch with her dad, then I am hurting her and her high school experience. I know that I didn't make the choices that are causing this but that is still how she will see it. She's a teen and they are all about themselves during the teen years.

If I could get her to consider playing soccer with her best friend, then maybe she wouldn't feel like I was taking things away from her. I will try that and let you know.

Anyway, I will continue with Plan A behavior and show my H just how great he really has it at home.

One more thing... I am trying to show my H that I can get past this but how can he believe it if I give him a hard time about not maintaining NC? It is a fine line to maintain my boundaries without becoming difficult with a less-than-cooperative WH.

Loni