Alright, here's my deal...
Some of you know I've been dating this guy for about 6 weeks. No kissing, not much touch-a hand on my back, a squeeze of my leg on the motorcycle. Tender, but not much more!
He's been divorced 3 months. Yes, thought of it as a red flag, but now I feel I'm getting to know him, I don't know if it is. We met online. No commitment, we are both still active on the site. Although *I've* only met (and they don't compare) two other guys in this time. Not sure what his deal is-I'm sure he's seeing others, but it's really none of my business at this point and I'm not the jealous type at all, but I DO EXPECT honesty, and he knows it. He's a good guy, I'm a good girl, but the "no kissie" thing has been making me wonder and then today sent a red flag up for me.
We have talked about the recent divorce and he feels he's healed. He's a pretty bright guy-probably the brightest I've ever been with. But still...
We met for lunch today. He was VERY obviously excited to see me (okay, and I him), and it was all going great until...
***************************************************
Me: What did you do last night.
Him: DS17 and I watched "office space" again blah blah blah
me: Is that all you did?
Him: Oh, let's see...oh, I had dinner with a friend
me: (jokingly) Oh, a date?
Him: hmmm, let me think, no. I was trying to think of how the rest of
the world would look at it, so no, not a date...
Me: looking questioningly at him
Him: My friend has Lou Gehrrigs disease. He is interviewing for a new
"nurse"
and asked me if I would meet this gal to see what I thought of her. He
wanted to see what kind of feel I got for her because not only would she
be in his house, but doing his bills and stuff.
Me: yikes! Was he there?
Him: no
Me: So you have this "interview" (with a questioning look on my face)
over dinner? But it wasn't a date, but you tell me you were having
dinner with a "friend"...?
Him: Well, like I said, I was trying to think of how the rest of the
world would look at it.
Me: I'm not the rest of the world, I was asking you what you did last
night.
We have no committment, it's okay if you go on a date.
Him: It wasn't a date...(goes on to talk about his friend, etc
etc.-totally gets away from the subject)
Me: (after his long story about his friend) Well, you totally skirted
that issue. I haven't seen dancing like that for awhile...
I'm ready to go, say thanks for lunch and we part...
********************************************************
I wrote my best girl, and she said:
"Hmmmm....definitely dancing, definitely skirting an issue....but WHY? I
think yes, he wasn't being up front, that, I agree is not a positive
thing. I'd like to know why he felt like he had to skirt the issue, is
it because he feels guilty about something or is it because he has been
'taught' that telling a partner or potential partner that he was at
dinner with a woman causes issues, and if that is why, why does it cause
issues, has he 'taught' others he can't be trusted or was he just
involved in bad relationships? See where I'm going with that? I think
it needs to be addressed but I really am curious about the reasoning
behind it. Is that in and of itself a deal breaker? Lots of questions
there.....

Maybe you shouldn't say anything until the next time he talks to you and
just wait to see on next contact from him if he brings it up and what he
says about it. I'm guessing he probably caught on that you were not okay
with something he said."
(I know, she's good, isn't she?!)
So, what do you think?

[color:"blue"]IMHO either a guy is open and honest or he is not open and honest.

What kind of crap is "I was trying to think how the rest of the world would see it?!"

He was trying to think how to explain it to you because he was not going to tell you the truth. For whatever reason.

It doesn't matter why he did it - it matters that he is not being open with you.

V. [/color]

yeah, see, we have this understanding...or so I thought. We think VERY much alike and that's kind of why I was saying "what's the rest of the world have to do with it? This is me here asking you!!!"
Duh!
Thanks, keep em coming! I need insight!
Dang, I like this guy too!

((Drita))

I had a cousin who died from ALS, it's not a good deal. I can actually relate to or understand your buddy being a little confused or on the spot worrying about your thoughts, impressions, and feelings. Now is this marriage he's coming out of the one that had the 17yo. If he's coming out of a LONG term marriage and you're thinking it's in any way a good thing with him, give me his address so I can paint his house red, his car red, heck I'll even paint him red. I, personally, would give him the benifit of the doubt.

Let's say all his stuff is on the up and up, how do you feel you did on communicating with him?

So now, lets turn our eyes on you. It seems as if you're searching for differences rather than similarities and when you found one you jumped on it and nagged at to get all the marrow out of the bone, why is that? Not only that, but in my readings of your words you were accusitory, called him a liar, and were just plain rude at the end.

No matter what the circumstances, I give you both D-'s in the communication department for the lunch date. I, personally, will feel obligated to own my share of it and call and apoligize.

hmmm... thinking here....

Wondering if it's just "time" for you to want a little more from this relationship, and you're not getting it. Or, perhaps you're not asking for what you really want. If you really want more affection, ask for it. Otherwise, your frustration may be coming out in other ways. (lack of trust?) If you don't care if he's dating others, do you have an agreement to discuss everything? Or is it OK for him to see them without telling you? - -> if you want honesty, ask for it. You say "he knows" you expect honesty... how? Do you have an agreement to discuss everything? If so... his reluctance to disclose his activities might lead you to think he was lying... but... perhaps... he has been burned before... or was just not sure how to answer... and maybe you can give him the benefit of the doubt this time, and watch for his actions to prove his character.

If I were you, I wouldn't have asked any questions after he said he had dinner with someone. AFter all, you're not committed to him (you said that yourself) and the two of you aren't exclusive.

He didn't owe you an explanation, but I suspect he felt pressured when you continued to ask about it. That's probably why he used that lame line about "How the rest of the world would see it"...as soon as you pushed further at that point, he knew he was in "trouble" for having dinner with another woman.

Quote

No commitment, we are both still active on the site. Although *I've* only met (and they don't compare) two other guys in this time. Not sure what his deal is-I'm sure he's seeing others, but it's really none of my business at this point and I'm not the jealous type at all, but I DO EXPECT honesty, and he knows it.

So you expect honesty, but he WAS honest. He told you what he did last night...Why did you feel the need to know more than that? You say it's none of your business and you're right---why didn't you just drop it? I sense some mixed messages here....

I agree with others. Dating a guy who has been divorced 3 months (half of which time you have been dating him?) is way too early. Red flag big enough to sail a ship, and will eventually come back to haunt you.

As far as the conversation, he did nothing wrong, and your accusations of him are inapporpriate. It was not a date with the woman, and all your traps and accusations still did not make it a date. He simply did not want to get into all the details of his friend's disease and all that stuff, and you forced him to do so, and then proceeded to make him sound like the bad guy.

IMO, this little incident shows a number of areas for you to look inward, and ask yourself why this happened.

AGG

If it doesn't matter, then WHY are you asking?

I think you need to look at YOUR feelings and why this makes you upset.

Why is it that women always want to know so much about men?

Do they think they are going to get some exclusive information. Men, like everyone else, are only going to tell you what they want you to know. At this point, anything more is none of your business.

hehe... have you gotten enough feedback? Where'd you go?

hugs,
Faith1

I should add that IMO, in these first three lines, you already were out of line. Why are you grilling him as if he were a 6 yo? What do you mean "is that all you did"? Perhaps the tone of voice was sweet and simply curious, but from this end, this sounds somewhat overbearing and micromanaging his life. Why do you feel he needs to be so accounatble to you for every minute of his life? Just IMO, Drita.

AGG

Okay, first, let me thank you all for the input. I DO so appreciate it!

Faith! hee hee, I wrote this hurriedly on my way to get my hair done, and it looks quite smashing I must say! I was out the rest of the afternoon.
Also, I think you have a point on me maybe wanting more from him. I guess I do, or at least want to know where he is with this whole deal. (Joe, that's why we ask !!! At least me, I'm kind of a talker about where things are-checking in, making sure what I think and feel is correct)



LH, Help me with this:
So now, lets turn our eyes on you. It seems as if you're searching for differences rather than similarities and when you found one you jumped on it and nagged at to get all the marrow out of the bone, why is that? Not only that, but in my readings of your words you were accusitory, called him a liar, and were just plain rude at the end.

You're right, I was rude. You should have given me a F! My feelings are pretty transparent, so I'm sure he was aware of my distaste. I wanted to hear it was a "date" if it was a date. My thought is that it was a date, but he wasn't honest about it. That's where my frustration came from. Could you say what I found? A similarity, or a difference? Are you saying you think I was looking for differences? Just need some clarification on that. But yeah, I pretty much kicked that dog for sure, my bad...

So yep, you guys are right. Now, how to correct? Where to go? What to say?

A little more on the situation, cuz like I said, I was in a hurry...

He was married for 18 yrs, divorced, married again, together altogether for 3 yrs, had another child, and she left shortly after the child was born. Divorce just was finalized.

You know, sitting here writing this now, I AM looking for dishonesty... okay, need to rethink some of this.

AGG, I certainly don't feel that he needs to be accountable for EVERY minute...just every other! hee hee, I'm only kidding. Actually, I've not talked to him much this week, so we were kind of going through what's been going on with each of us.

Mixed messages, yes, I think there are on both ends. He KNOWS I expect honesty because we've discussed it. He feels the same way. But he doesn't ask me. Maybe I need to take a lesson from him? Honestly, this is the first time I've asked. I think a little of it was because he didn't have his kids and we normally do something and I didn't hear from him all night...which again, normally I do.

So, is this something I even continue to pursue? Is it too soon for him? (he thinks no because we've discussed it)
He did ask me to be his date for his company's Christmas party-HIS company's Christmas party, I agreed to attend. I've really got myself confused on this one. I really don't know what I'm thinking and why!

One more thing... I had met a guy the other day for coffee (new guy from the internet) and was comparing him to this one thinking to myself I really like this one...

Analyze this!

Could it be you're still in "detective mode" thanks to your previous husband? I don't want to paint your conversation as a big "trust issues" picture, but I wonder if you had to ask a lot of questions to get answers in your first marriage because your husband wasn't truthful, had an A, etc...

Something I read the other day hit me square between the eyes. I won't quote it exactly right... but... when women try to rush emotional honesty, "lets put everything out on the table", gotta know whats going on stuff

it's similar to when men try to rush sex.

Both of those things need time... time for the relationship, and more commitment-levels to develop.

It's hard for me to chill, bite my tongue sometimes!!!!, let him do his thing, and let him think his thoughts, especially if I'm wanting something more in the R. But take your time!

Not sure where to go from here. I'm sure others will have ideas... and I'll keep thinking too!

hugs

Drita, This is my read on what happened. He was probably set up on a blind date by his friend under the pretence of an interview.

I'll be "him" in your conversation and show you what my thought process would have been under these circumstances..LOL..

Me: What did you do last night.
Him: DS17 and I watched "office space" again blah blah blah
me: Is that all you did?
Him: Oh crap, I really didn't want to talk about this. But I guess I'll try to be honest. Oh, let's see...oh, I had dinner with a friend
me: (jokingly) Oh, a date?
Him: I think it might have been a date. But since I didn't ask her out. Not a date. hmmm, let me think, no. I was trying to think of how the rest of
the world would look at it, so no, not a date...
Me: looking questioningly at him
Him: Not a date this is why it's not a date. My friend has Lou Gehrrigs disease. He is interviewing for a new
"nurse"
and asked me if I would meet this gal to see what I thought of her. He
wanted to see what kind of feel I got for her because not only would she
be in his house, but doing his bills and stuff.
Me: yikes! Was he there?
Him: no. Oh no this is gonna look like a date now. I'm in trouble now.
Me: So you have this "interview" (with a questioning look on my face)
over dinner? But it wasn't a date, but you tell me you were having
dinner with a "friend"...?
Him: Did I really use the word "friend'? She was supose to take that as a male friend and let me change the subject. Well, like I said, I was trying to think of how the rest of the
world would look at it.
Me: I'm not the rest of the world, I was asking you what you did last
night.
We have no committment, it's okay if you go on a date.
Him: It wasn't a date...(goes on to talk about his friend, etc
etc.-totally gets away from the subject) Would she just drop the date thing. I did't ask her out. I had no choice.
Me: (after his long story about his friend) Well, you totally skirted
that issue. I haven't seen dancing like that for awhile...
I'm ready to go, say thanks for lunch and we part...
Him: Yes I did, but not as well as I had thought I could.

All in good fun, but I can spin this as well as the next guy/gal:

Me: What did you do last night.
Him: DS17 and I watched "office space" again blah blah blah
me: Is that all you did?
Him: [color:"red"] Thinking: "Hmm, well, I also did some laundry, took out the garbage, do I need to account for every single thing I did? [/color] Oh, let's see...oh, I had dinner with a friend
me: (jokingly) Oh, a date?
Him: [color:"red"] Thinking: "Why is she prying? I told her it was dinner with a friend, why the "date" obsession?" [/color] hmmm, let me think, no. I was trying to think of how the rest of
the world would look at it, so no, not a date...
Me: looking questioningly at him
Him: [color:"red"] Thinking: "What is that weird look for?" [/color] My friend has Lou Gehrrigs disease. He is interviewing for a new
"nurse"
and asked me if I would meet this gal to see what I thought of her. He
wanted to see what kind of feel I got for her because not only would she
be in his house, but doing his bills and stuff.
Me: yikes! Was he there?
Him: no
Me: So you have this "interview" (with a questioning look on my face)
over dinner? But it wasn't a date, but you tell me you were having
dinner with a "friend"...?
Him: [color:"red"] Thinking: "The questioning look has got to go... And right, like I said, it wasn't a date but a dinner with a friend - why is that so hard to understand?" [/color] Well, like I said, I was trying to think of how the rest of the
world would look at it.
Me: I'm not the rest of the world, I was asking you what you did last
night.
We have no committment, it's okay if you go on a date.
Him: [color:"red"] Thinking: "The woman is a psycho - I told her it wasn't a date, why is she lecturing me that it's OK for me to go on a date? This is totally passive aggressive behavior"? [/color] It wasn't a date...(goes on to talk about his friend, etc
etc.-totally gets away from the subject)
Me: (after his long story about his friend) Well, you totally skirted
that issue. I haven't seen dancing like that for awhile...
I'm ready to go, say thanks for lunch and we part...
[color:"red"] Him: Thinking: "OMG, now THERE is a side I haven't seen before. Is this how I will be grilled every day, if we end up together? Yikes!"[/color]

Hmm. I reckon enough has already been said, but speaking as "a pretty bright guy" (bright enough at least to tie myself up in knots using my brain alone) who came out of a long-term marriage with minimal prior or subsequent dating experience, I can testify that the kind of verbal dancing described could have been completely innocuous.

I can very much relate to the "I was trying to think of how the rest of the world would look at it" line, and I don't consider it lame at all. This has been a considerable source of confusion for me myself, as it is not uncommon for me to have lunch or dinner or something with a (single) woman, just the two of us, and even for me to pay for both of us. In almost every case, I am certain that the women did not consider it to be a "date" in the sense of seeing it as an opportunity for us to size each other up for romantic potential. For that matter, I did not view these occasions in that light myself. And yet, I'm sure that some people would call these occasions "dates." Are the defining criteria more about circumstances or more about intent? Figuring out the conventions has not proven to be simple for me, possibly in large part because I think too much.

Combine this type of confusion with not only a desire to communicate openly and honestly, but also an acute awareness that I have to factor in the possibly divergent perspectives of the listener, whom I may not know well enough for me to do more than make a tentative guess at how my words will be understood. If I were placed in a similar predicament to the man in the spotlight, I would probably create the same impression as he did, without any evasiveness actually intended.

A talkative tendency for digression would just make it seem worse. (Yes, I've got that too.)

I'm not sure if any of this is a relevant insight, but it's at least an insight.

Drita,

I'm not ignoring your question, but leaving it for the guys to respond.

I'm reading though!!

Karona

K, feel free to chime in! I need all the help I can get, obviously!

I did send him a text last night: "I owe you an apology for probing. I'm sorry"
His response: Not at all-it's just an odd situation - and I didn't know how to label it or explain.

So I made amends, and GdP-you sound just like him actually, very intelligent, uses words carefully. Overthinks, overanalyzes, which is much like myself.

I gotta say, I was jealous (I had written I think I was jealous, but there's no thinking and there's no little!) I just was.

I put him in a bad position. Perhaps due to HIS past experiences, or how he views things, he may feel that if he tells me something I will take it wrong, over-react and put him in a position where he feels he has to defend his actions, and I don't want to do that, don't want to be that kind of a person, woman, "GF" or otherwise. AGG, YIKES!! is right!!! I DO NOT WANT TO BE THAT PERSON!!
So, I need to figure out where this is coming from in me, need to correct my thinking here, and play nice!

Gosh, I hate that I did this!! I take so much pride in having my "poop in a group" and then I turn around and do something like to this to someone I am very interested in!!
Ugh!

I think there is also some truth to my past conditioning and what has been done and said to me... the A, previous liars. I'd just like to get this right for once!

So on that line of thinking... how do I fix this part of me?
Why is it that I am SO confident until I become somewhat vulnerable and then start acting like an idiot??!

Funny thing happened at lunch today that opened my eyes to something I possibly need to look at about myself, but not aware that I needed to because it's been so long since I've been interested in someone enough to consider a R.

I had my teeth cleaned! That's not what made me think of it, it was my hygenist, who is a friend of mine and has been for about 10 years. I told her I was wondering how my old dog was (I lost her in the divorce), and she knew, because XH still comes there for his dental appointments. Well, the dog is fine, ate a pizza she wasn't supposed to I understand, but she's okay.
But then of course, we were talking a little about the divorce and how he handed me a speadsheet on New Years day and told me this was what he was going to pay me, that he was filing for divorce, and that he would like to have me out by the end of the month. Of course I was quite surprised by the New Year's events, but have learned that I'm better off for it.
At any rate, he was down visiting his new girlfriend two weeks later and then she moved in and they were married a short time after. (we have no kids so the details are sketchy)
I kind of chuckled because I was thinking of my trist yesterday and told her a little about it. She laughed and said it's understandable how I might have some trust issues as it was all a HUGE shock to everyone. I told her I was over all that....she said, well, maybe over him, but it sounds like not his damage.

Haven't heard from anyone all morning here! Did I say I was done with you?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />