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My $.02 on meeting ENs (admiration included) in Plan A:
Is one of the effects (if not one of the purposes) of Plan A to remove the WS-created barriers to returning to the relationship? The WS will repeatedly say, "you're not meeting my needs. Therefore, I am having an affair" or some other logical fallacy that suggests a causal relationship between unmet needs and the choice to have an affair.
So the BS removes the evidence used to support the faulty logic. "I may not have been meeting your needs before. But I am now. So now what is your response?"
It's pretty rare that Plan A alone ends an affair (based on my experience on the boards). When an A ends without Plan B, it is usually because the OP gets busted or for some other reason ends the relationship.
I think what Plan A does is it forces both BS and WS to realize that the A is rooted in causes *other* than unmet needs. Yup, unmet needs lead to a very bad situation. But ultimately, the choice to have an A is based on something in the WS that, while amplified by a rocky marital foundation, is independent of those unmet needs.
"Admiring" a WS during the A (however it is best defined others here have done a good job of that) takes away the excuse "but you don't admire me and she does." Increasing one's level of domestic support during the A takes away the excuse "but you don't provide me with a peaceful haven and she does."
I'm wondering - does Plan A take the focus off the BS and allow the blame for the choice to be placed squarely where it belongs?
G
BS (me) - 34
FWH (him) - 35
Married 15 years
D-day - December 20, 03
Recovered
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It is in the interest of the BS to show affection to the WS if: 1) the BS wishes to continue being married to the WS, and 2) the WS has a need for affection.
If the BS doesn't wish to reconcile, like in what I understand of lemonman’s stitch , affection is withheld and divorce is pursued.
It all boils down to what the BS wishes to accomplish, divorce or reconciliation.
I don't think a BS is supposed to show affection because of the affair, or to give affection in support of the continuation of the affair, rather the BSs are counseled to show affection to entice the WS to reconsider their selfish actions, and possibly the marriage.
If a BS wishes to continue the marriage, affection given to a WS that yearns for affection, will probably work.
I think that is why affection is advised.
I don’t think that anyone is advocating being a cheerleader for a WS’s affair.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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as strange as this sounds...most of all...i admire him for being willing to give up every material thing that he worked for...to stand up to the critisism of his family and friends...to face the fear of the unknown
all for love There are alleys full of crack-heads that have done the same. Are they in love?
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Well ~ I'm one of those guilty of admiring an active wayward spouse.
How on earth did I do that?
I praised and thanked him for even the smallest good thing he did.
I bit my critical, perfectionist, controlling, judgemental tongue, that had nagged and berated him for years for never being good enough...and I looked really damn hard for what I could honestly, with integrity, say thank you and admire him for.
He wanted to be admired. That's kind of a misnomer. He really just wanted to be recognized for what he DID bring to our marriage and family. He wanted me to be proud of the things he did do right. He wanted me to acknowledge and praise him for his successes.
So when he showed up and changed the oil on my car, I stood outside with him, and told him how cool it was that he knew how to do it himself, and how much I appreciated his effort.
When he bought my car after the lease was up, so I would not be left without wheels, I said thank you, and expressed my appreciation for his hard work at earning the money necessary to do it.
I admired and respected his long hours at work, and his very fast climb up the corporate ladder.
I did not call him names, I did not call him on the carpet, it was not my job and never will be my job to be his conscience.
It was not my job to enforce consequences. It was my job to set boundaries to protect myself and my children.
If his behavior at any given moment was helpful to me or my children, I recognized it.
Positive reinforcement is far more effective than critical, judgemental criticism.
-------------------- I just want to say that I AMEN and DITTO BR on this post... PLAN A is not about ADMIRING the WAYWARD SPOUSE... It's about GIVING THE MESSAGE THAT THE BS HAS THE CAPACITY FOR MEETING THIS EMOTIONAL NEED.... IT IS A MARRIAGEBUILDING STRATEGY PLAIN AND SIMPLE..... If the WS who has a STRONG NEED FOR ADMIRATION does not get the message that the BS can meet this need, the chance for RECOVERY is NIL IMHO.... The OP in my case met this primary need of my FWH's...That is the PRIMARY NEED THAT SHE WAS ABLE TO MEET SO WELL.... If I did not give the message during PLAN A that I could meet this need...our marriage was doomed.... I was specifically COACHED by Steve Harley on how to EVIDENCE my CAPACITY to meet this need.... I did not AT ALL give the message that I admired his WAYWARDNESS...I communicated that I did not ADMIRE his WAYWARDNESS but I ADMIRED what he had done for his family in the past.. I went back and communicated what I had previously ADMIRED but had FAILED MISERABLY to tell him... However, there were behaviors of his that I could ADMIRE during PLAN A....as BR has indicated....
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I believe that many, many people -- ESPECIALLY active WS -- do not understand that Admiration is NOT the same thing as Respect.
My WH has a huge need for Admiration. He is the world's biggest sucker for a verbal blow job from anyone, *especially* from anyone female. He thinks this means these people "respect" him.
He has never understood that his fawning little tw*ts at work that he ignored me for were either
(1) loser females who could not get their own husband, so they would just borrow someone else's
(2) golddiggers who sucked up to the boss to get the promotions and perks they couldn't get otherwise
(3) all of the above.
Again, we always had a good relationship at home. He is a WS who wants nothing more than to be married at home and single at work. I always enjoyed our conversations and never hesitated to tell him the truth about things, especially things at work (I worked there too for a long time.) These were NEVER arguments and he seemed to enjoy these convesations too.
Then I found out that he was ignoring me for fawning, air-headed females who sucked up and sucked up and sucked up to him all day long, and stroked and stroked his ego to get what THEY wanted from him. And it worked.
He thinks this is "respect". To me, it's just a pathetically needy man who lets females lead him around the office by his d*ck. He threw away our marriage for it and I couldn't stop him. He has a need for attention that borders on narcississm and it is something that no one person could ever fill for him.
So anyway - when someone goes into 100% Selfish Mode, as any WS does, there is no amount of Admiration in the world that would ever be enough. The BS is just one more source and can never fill that need for them as long as they remain a WS.
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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I admired my H's courage, right after D day, to meet with OW's husband, and confess his affair with OW. My H apologized face to face. THAT I expressed admiration for. My H apologized to my parents, without being asked. I admired him for that. My H would make dinner for the kids when I was too .... ummmmm "broken" to manage meals .... and I would thank him for that effort and admire his tacos. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If recovery of the marriage is what one seeks, there are small opportunities to admire decent choices the WS makes .... without seeming to approve the cowardice and cruelty that is an affair choice.
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Lemon, You asked an interesting questions and have certainly gotten some very good answers. I think BR, Mulan, Mimi, and Pep are distilling it down to a good few points. IF admiration is a major need of a WS, and you are in plan A I believe the goal is NOT to glorify the A, or the decision making that went into it. The goal is to demonstrate that the BS is capable of appreciating the things that the WS did do well, and can do well in the marriage. Having the affair is NOT one of them. But, I think there is something else here that is being missed and I think it is a major goal of Plan A. As the BS is examining exactly what it is they admire about their spouse, they are examining exactly WHY it is they want to fight to keep this marriage. It is very difficult for me to believe that one can be happily married to someone who has NO traits one admires. It is hard for me to believe that one can be happily married to someone they have NO respect for. And since this is a marriage builders site, it seems to me that THE PLAN is for the BS to refocus on the good things about the WS as much as possible in order to deal with the pain and devastation caused by the affair. Otherwise plan A is going to be very very diffcult to do, instead of just very difficult to do. Further, remember that plan A/Plan B is NOT just applied to situations where there has been an affair, although that is its main focus. It is also applicable when a spouse has withdrawn from another. So I think that the admiration exercise is two fold. The MAJOR portion is for the BS, the secondary one is for the WS. And if the WS has any sort of "...detector" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, admiring something the WS knows goes against your grain will be counter productive. Just some thoughts. JL
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JL, what an important point!! As the BS is examining exactly what it is they admire about their spouse, they are examining exactly WHY it is they want to fight to keep this marriage. It is very difficult for me to believe that one can be happily married to someone who has NO traits one admires. It is hard for me to believe that one can be happily married to someone they have NO respect for. Once discovering that my H was having an A and realizing MY MISTAKES, I began to APPRECIATE the MAN that he WAS...not the man that was having an A... I remember Steve Harley saying to me: "You have got to get this..this is an ADDICTION..he is not HIMSELF"... Steve was SOOO right.... I had to tell myself that my H was "in there somewhere"..that was the part of him that I continued to ADMIRE and show APPRECIATION for and there would be GLIMPSES of him even when he was in the midst of his A...He was/is a prominent businessman who always was a good provider and took good care of his family...He continued to wake up every morning and go to work..He washed the dishes and washed the clothes...when he left, our son said: "Mommy you don't keep the clothes washed like Daddy did"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />This just a few of the admirable things he continued to do...that I missed.... The thing is...once out of the fog....my ONCE UNAPPRECIATED H...has become himself again...I now have learned and practiced the behaviors during PLAN A) to show my APPRECIATION AND ADMIRATION of HIM... In turn, the FWS, in Recovery, will begin to meet the FBS' ENs.... In reading, HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS, it seems to me that the MB Approach is a BEVAVIORAL type of program, focusing on SKILL-BUILDING...they advocate JUST DOING IT...even if you don't necessarily FEEL IT...LOVE BEING A VERB....
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/02/05 12:41 PM.
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Wow Lem, thanks for posting this. This was my FWH top need and i have had such a delimma trying to figure out how exactly i could execute this without being false. I dont remember who said this but it rang true for me...that it isnt so much that they want to be admired but recognized...
for my H i think that is what he wanted from me. I really made him feel worthless before the A (even sadly telling him that he was) but he isn't worthless and i dont really believe that. I said it in anger. The OW made him feel like he was brillant. I don't think that it is easy to make someone feel admired when you are first going thru recovery, even to say thank you to him for "helping" with the dishes is all he wanted and that was hard for me to say sometimes. It is hard to give out admiration, when you are not feeling admired back. So with everything i think that it takes time.
Thanks BR, after reading your post i IMed my H and thanked him for making an effort to make my birthday special. It helped me figure out how i can learn to "admire" him. I was having trouble figuring out what i could do.
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Lemonman
First, I understand your scepticism, but can I ask you a return question? If someone does something really bad, does that make them 100% bad? Even if they're still compulsively doing the bad thing, and may wreck your life through doing it, does that make them 100% bad? If you're forced to split up with them because of the bad thing, would you want your kids to think of their mother/father as 100% bad?
Almost nobody is 100% bad. And recognising the bits of the WS that are or have been worthy of respect is important both for the BS's own sense of personal integrity, and to offer a platform for any eventual recovery. After all, if the WS wakes up and begins to see what a mess they've created, they need to believe that they have some value to the BS that makes it worth attempting recovery.
And, as JL said, it's highly unlikely that the BS has never seen anything to respect in the WS. Why withhold truth about the aspects of the WS that were once respected? Simply to punish?
Second, the need for admiration is understandable, in the context of a normal healthy marriage. But, as Ark said, a WS's 'EN' for admiration in the very early stages is hopelessly skewed by the A and the dense fog. The whole questionnaire thing shouldn't be attempted until the WS is seeing clearly again.
But, unfair as it may seem, the WS needs some admiration in the early stages. Not fake compliments, but a sense that there is something worth appreciating in them. (In fact, I suspect that anything forced and fraudulent is counter-productive; I think we all instinctively sense when someone is saying something about us that's not really true.) You, as the BS, are trying to hold onto the good bits of the WS; the OP owns the bad bits, and ultimately the WS is likely to turn to the Good Side, if there is enough integrity in them.
And if not - what's lost? A bit of pride? Isn't it worth it, if there are childrens' lives involved?
TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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From my pink highlighted copy of HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS: p.175: "Elaine (BS) must learn to meet the emotional needs that Harriet (OW) met. I realize Alex strayed, but Elaine (BS) must come to grips with his unfulfilled emotional needs that left him vulnerable." So, as recommended by Dr. Harley, I went about LEARNING to meet my H's need for ADMIRATION. This is HIS primary emotional need. He speaks earlier in the book of learning, behaviorally, as developing HABITS. PLAN A PROVIDES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR LEARNING AND PRACTICE FOR THE BS!! p. 184 in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS: "Admiration. She understands and appreciates him more than anyone else. She reminds him of his value and achievements and helps him maintain self-confidence. She avoids criticizing him. She is proud of him, not out of duty, but from a profound respect for the man she choose to marry." Thanks. I needed to read this today. I have a hard time NOT CRITICIZING and he definitely cringes at this...YUK.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/02/05 03:01 PM.
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This is a great thread all around. Even if I don't personally agree with every view point....so what?
Thanks for all of your contributing views. I am seeing this perhaps a tad different than I even did last night.
Good stuff all around.
Lem
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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Lemonman
First, I understand your scepticism, but can I ask you a return question? If someone does something really bad, does that make them 100% bad? Even if they're still compulsively doing the bad thing, and may wreck your life through doing it, does that make them 100% bad? TA: For the record I do not think that someone who cheats is "100% bad" or that this action 100% defines them and their life "FOREVER". I still have my views on this that may differ from many above, but I think the dissenting views have been extremely helpful to people here. Isn't that what this thread should be about? I think the most profound opinion today on this subject was by Just Learning. The concept being that IF a BS wants to reconcile their marriage, then they need to find out what they are "fighting for"....Surely no one is in a "happy" marriage and yet does not "admire" anything about their Wayward Spouse. Brilliant, if you ask me. Maybe a Betrayed Spouse "thinks" they want to fight for a marriage, but after processing this all, realizes that they were "never" happy at all, and they conclude that the Ws does not have the "admirable" qualities that they want or need in a Spouse. It can work both ways. Maybe I play devils advocate here.....seems to suit me just fine actually... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is all good. That man (JL) is one wickedly, insighful man...Kind of makes me jealous...a little.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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That man (JL) is one wickedly, insighful man...Kind of makes me jealous...a little.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I agree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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Maybe a Betrayed Spouse "thinks" they want to fight for a marriage, but after processing this all, realizes that they were "never" happy at all, and they conclude that the Ws does not have the "admirable" qualities that they want or need in a Spouse. But the thing is, this does not fit with a basic MBer's principle that Dr. Harley makes in his book and Steve made to me... It's a behavioral POV... The viewpoint is that IF YOUR WS LOVED YOU BEFORE, THE WS CAN LOVE YOU AGAIN.... LOVE being a VERB... LOVE meaning that the COUPLE LEARNS TO MEET EACH OTHERS' PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS... AS THEY DID IN THE PAST WHEN FIRST COURTING EACH OTHER..... I see this as the point being made in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS...
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/02/05 03:14 PM.
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Maybe a Betrayed Spouse "thinks" they want to fight for a marriage, but after processing this all, realizes that they were "never" happy at all, and they conclude that the Ws does not have the "admirable" qualities that they want or need in a Spouse. But the thing is, this does not fit with a basic MBer's principle that Dr. Harley makes in his book and Steve made to me... It's a behavioral POV... The viewpoint is that IF YOUR WS LOVED YOU BEFORE, THE WS CAN LOVE YOU AGAIN.... LOVE being a VERB... LOVE meaning that the COUPLE LEARNS TO MEET EACH OTHERS' PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS... I see this as the point being made in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS... Mimi: Fair enough......And I am sure that the great majority of people here are in 100% agreement with you and Harley's opinion....BUT that also DOESN'T MAKE MY PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW ABOVE WRONG. I think it is OK, if there are dissenting opinions or views about this. This is how people learn. Isn't that was makes this board great? I may happen to disagree with Steve and Willard Harley on some things.....no biggie, people here are intelligent enough to make up their minds for themselves. Like I have said probably 10,000 times before, I have been on the dissenting side of things with people far more powerful and potentially career limiting to me than the Harley's and their views <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Even though this is a Harley MB site, I still believe that threads and posts that don't necessarily "fit with the system" are greatly beneficial. I guess, it is all how you yourself see it. Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Lem
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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I don't know Mimi ~ I agree with Lem that JL made a very brilliant point, and one that definitely applied in my situation: I think the most profound opinion today on this subject was by Just Learning. The concept being that IF a BS wants to reconcile their marriage, then they need to find out what they are "fighting for"....Surely no one is in a "happy" marriage and yet does not "admire" anything about their Wayward Spouse. Over and over...my Alanon sponsor said to me: What do you love about your H? What do you admire, what do you respect? She was asking me to examine MY needs, my emotions, my sheer emotional dependency on my husband. This self-examination was so incredibly crucial to my own emotional growth and survival. I discovered that I had legitimate things to admire, and I also had alot of ugly emotional dependencies that were NOT healthy. There was a big bright spotlight shown on my ugly bits by asking that question. I found that my behavior towards my husband (regardless of what he did or didn't do) was despicable and something that needed to be addressed - no matter if we recovered or not. My behavior had turned me into someone I did not like or respect. I changed my behavior because no matter WHAT he decided, I wanted to admire and respect myself. Asking the question: "What do I admire about my H" also put ME back in charge of my life. By examining this question, I found myself suddenly realizing that Hey, I get to decide too! I was no longer sitting around waiting for my husband to decide what was going on with MY life.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Boy, things strike close to the sensitive center sometimes.
“Maybe a Betrayed Spouse "thinks" they want to fight for a marriage, but after processing this all, realizes that they were "never" happy at all, and they conclude that the WS does not have the "admirable" qualities that they want or need in a Spouse.”
It’s been almost two years since DDay 2. I am now coming full circle to a realization I had almost right away but suppressed because it hurt and scared me so much. There was never much to admire in my W during our entire M. Her LTA and the previous A spanned most of our M. There may even have been yet an earlier A. Her entitlement and self-absorption was almost all encompassing. Her needs and wants have been bottomless. No one man could ever meet them adequately all the time. I now see this more or less clearly, finally.
I can even assign FOO, addictive behavour and mental causes and effects.
Processing this awareness as noted above by JL has taken me nearly two years.
Is that too long? Am I now stuck since I agreed to recovery back then?
And there are children. That’s a duty that far outweighs my needs right now.
Ok, so I don’t know what I really mean at the moment. Just thinking out loud.
I still care about her. I still love her and acting love-is-a-verb is no trouble at all.
I look hard for things to admire and respect. There are some now.
It’s all very confusing.
Just the kind of confusion LM likes to get all over on, huh.
Last edited by Aphelion; 12/02/05 03:36 PM.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Oh my Lemon: I am not ARGUING at all with your POV or your right to have your opinion. I think it's important to make the MB POV clear to new folks who want to use this approach because I for one feel that it is very effective for MARITAL RECOVERY.... I NEVER EVER SAID THAT YOUR DISSENTING OPINION IS NOT BENEFICIAL... At least, I didn't say that TODAY.... I will let you know when I think that.... BTW, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that your dissenting opinion isn't welcomed by me.. You see how critical I can be...YUK... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/02/05 03:37 PM.
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It’s all very confusing.
Just the kind of confusion LM likes to get all over on, huh. A: Please expand on this for me. Thanks Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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