Wow, can I relate to that! I believe if you continue to put your faith in God you will be on the right path. This is not a decision you have to make tomorrow. THWACK!!! My 2x4 for that. JL will confirm that you, my friend, are deserving of his and other's time.

I ditto Faith's thwack!

Reading your posts Ap is one of the things which keeps me reading here.

You have an honesty and kindness about you which is awesome. And your desire to live in forgiveness is to me the highest and most important of all goals. For as you know I believe that forgiveness of ourselves and others is the entire purpose of our lives, and the true path to peace/God. This doesn't mean staying in a sitch which is not in your best interest or in the best interest of others, but as 2long once posted it is a matter of coming to the full true realization that there never was anything to forgive in the first place because all attacks on another are really attacks on ourselves, and forgiveness is the only way to stop this unholy destruction of soul...for ourselves and others. We are all following paths which will ultimately give us the lessons we need to find our true path home, and this includes the very lost WS's, but those are their lessons to learn and we have very little control (or place) in trying to direct that path.




And this is the choice which will attract the love you desire to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For me after the first awful months this spring, I made a choice to live in peace and in love, and it was after that decision everything fell into place. Amazing how the universe works on your behalf once you make the decision of what it is you need and want... and when that choice is in alignment with the good of all. You cannot become the man you were meant to become (a light for others), until your basic need to be loved and to love with all your heart is met.

Ouch and ouch. You guys are embarrassing me.

‘scuse me while I closely examine this piece of lint here...

With prayers,

Maybe, just maybe, filling your w/s's need for admiration is more than just telling him he is wonderful.

Maybe it is helping him to recover, the dignity and honor he left behind when he broke his vows, broke my heart and destroyed my trust.

I remember that dark look in his eyes. It was like looking into the eyes of a person that had lost all feelings of self-worth, and loathed himself, and what he had done to the person he had promised to love and care for. He loathed everybody and everything.

I feel like me offering him admiration, was me offering water to a person dying of dehydration.

I loved my husband, and knew this is what he needed. A reason to hold his head up, and not look in the mirror and loathe the person he had become.

So, I like other posters, searched my mind for all the things my husband had done before, and I had never acknowledged.

I told him how much I appreciated all the years of working, bringing home money to support us. His years of unselfishly taking care of the needs of our children and myself. I told him I could never begin to repay him back for all the things he had done for me in the past.

I then told him this is why I make sure the first thing I do in the morning is make him tea and a lunch to see him off for work, and the last thing I do at night is to rub his back before sleep. These little acts of kindness, are acts of love and appreciation for everything he does.

Now that we are in recovery, I try to show my appreciation in my eyes looking at him with love.

I understand your feelings Lemonman, but for me, I feel honest and good about myself making my husband feel good about himself.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the EA STUNK, big time. But I am picking up the shattered pieces left of my very sorry, guilty xwh.

We are still both very fragile, and we both need every bit of positive actions to help our recovering marriage.

I feel compassion for my xws when I see the sadness in his eyes, and how he reacts to correct his behavior when I mention that things are bothering me.

Hi LM.
I was wondering if you check your Yahoo email account that
you have posted at the bottom of your messages?

lemonman36@yahoo.com

I had emailed you requesting that you post the link to YOUR STORY here. (Or start a new thread.)
But I don't see it yet OR didn't get a reply.

I would like to understand and learn about your courtship, marriage and later your divorce. I don't even know if you have children or how long you knew each other before you were married or how long you were married.

About all I know is you are a doctor and your wife was unfaithful.

Thanks, Mary

P.S. You didn't answer the thoughtful message posted before this one by kdsheartbreak; you might have missed it as this thread was on page 4.

Link to my story: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Hope this helps you understand me....if you figure it out, lemme know, I could use the help...LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

p.s. I will go back and try and answer your other questions.

KDS:

I cannot argue with a word you said above FOR YOU. Isn't this the essence of what we are all talking about?

Kds, I have read your story, and I hope that your WH is "doing" the things that you "hoped" and "prayed" for in previous posts, including going WITH you places, meeting YOUR Emotional Needs, becoming an OPEN BOOK. I hope the days of all weekend hunting trips without YOU are over. Is that all happeninig? Are you re-creating your marriage? Is your WH earning the "admiration" you are heaping on him to build himself back up? I want to say that I hope he is.

I think some of you may have in fact misinterpreted my original thought on this....or maybe not. I don't see anything wrong with finding even speckles of "good" in a damaged, Wayward man or woman who is trying to "do right".....but I have serious issues with the sometimes "exaggerated" "admiration" that many bestow on their Cheating Spouses......qualities, that rightfully they did NOT ever earn. Giving them (Waywards) "admiration" and "entitlement" for things that ALL ADULTS NEED TO DO TO SURVIVE IN THIS LIFE (pay bills, go to work, maintain the car).....Sorry, but this guy "don't buy it" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. It happens here, I know for a fact that it does.

I don't want to get into this argument again, as we all have our view points about this. I happen to agree with the sentiments of the gal from Georgia...Just Peachy....many Waywards use the "admiration" as a sense of "entitlement". Once again, just my opinion, and I will leave it at that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I rightfully understand and expect near absolute disagreement. It is ok, and I am certainly not offended.

Disagreement is GOOD, it enhances knowledge...we all could use that.

LM

LM - It's kind of like building your self esteem by being admired ----- in my opinion, self-esteem is built by modeling good character and honor.

By the way, since reading this I have been looking very very hard for something to admire about my WH.

We had a meeting with the attorneys today, and he agreed to let me keep my inheritance. It is the law in California that you can keep it. The only thing is.........my parents are still alive and well.

But I did let him know that I admired him being so fair about it. Felt kind of false though.

I agree with you. In the end, the sometimes ***false*** admiration done all with the good intentions of "building" up a man actually does more harm than good.

Self esteem and Respect has to come from within.

I guess I am just a weirdo. I just don't understand the admiration that supposedly comes with doing what you as a MAN or WOMAN is RESPONSIBLE TO DO.

Working a 40 or 50 hour week, putting clothes on your childs back, paying the electricity bill...call me dumb (and I may be that)...but I personally don't find any of that "admirable" or requiring "special apprecitation". THAT'S LIFE....THAT'S CALLED RESPONSIBILITY.

Can I get some "admiration" for paying nearly 43% of my income last year to Local, State, and Federal taxes.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it is just me, and I "don't get it". I am more than willing to come to that conclusion to rectify this for myself....LOL.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just curious Lem.....

Do you withold praise, thanks, and gratitude from your OR staff when they "do their job"?

You don't get admiration for paying taxes, but I'll bet the people who's lives were saved, or lives who were made better because you "did your responsiblity" did admire and thank you.

I guarantee you, many many spouses here witheld gratitude and adirmation with the fallacious idea that "fulfillment of responsibilities" not only deserved no thanks and admiration, but in fact was BAD for the recipient.

As usual I never intend to get involved in these discussions and as usual I'll give the FWW perspective.

Our MC, who was pro marriage and followed Harley principles almost to the letter explained it to my H and I like this. She drew two colums. At the top of one she put OM or "X", at the top of the other she put "H". As my A ended at it's height and hadn't reached boring and wasn't diminishing as most A's do (they do you know) severe damage control was required.

In the OM column she shaded in the whole area and said to my H, that's the OM's love bank as it stands with Jen now. She then shaded in a tiny bit at the bottom of H's column. She said "that's yours with Jen right now."

She said to H, Your job is to match OM's love bank and overtake it. She said, Jenny is not seeing the OM so his LB can't grow any more, but your's sure can. You have to be as good at, no, better than, meeting Jenny's needs than the OM was.

That is "getting it". My H "got it", I "got it".

Maybe that's why we're recovered right now.

Jen

In my opinion, the Harley's take too much stock in the old "lack of EN's" being met. I am sure that is true in many cases.

But I think it is also true in many cases that the BS was much more invested in the marriage than the WS. The WS's selfishness and entitlement gets fed.

I give admiration all day long to my kids, fellow workers, and people I contact, WHEN IT IS DESERVED.

I refuse to give admiration to some cheating deadbeat who is doing NOTHING. If that is why I'm divorced, so be it.

And I am not talking about WS's who have changed. I do admire them.

No one suggested that a deadbeat do-nothing get admired. Now, I agree with Lem that some here do seem to live in an alternate universe where their spouse is admirable.

But in general people do have a need to be admired, respected and acknowledged for their hard work and effort.

Witholding that emotional support because the individual is simply doing his or her responsiblity is in my opinion, very cruel, profoundly ungrateful and serves only the witholder's sense of entitlement.

How cruel and selfish of me, in 10 years of marriage, never to thank my husband for the excellent care he took of my car. I figured...thats his responsibility. I didn't ever appreciate his taking care of my car so I never had to take it for an oil change. I felt entitled, I was married and that was his job to take care of me. My attitude was: He doesn't deserve praise for doing his job! How wrong, how selfish, how coldhearted my behavior was!

BR:

YOu may have something here. I am reading your thoughts and processing them. You do have some valid points and I tend to agree with what you say. I guess perhaps I am just not getting accross my point very well. So be it.

I want to argue with you and cross examine your post....but, you know...I can't....LOL. SO I will dismiss the witness for now.

Point taken, view acknowledged. We probably agree more than you realize. So I will leave it at that. Truthfully, I think were probably arguing the same POV, just in different ways.

I would like to stay and chat, but I just got paged from the ED to look at an old guy who fell at the nursing home and these moron ER docs called it a "trauma alert".....Sigh..

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've been following this thread with intrigue; everybody's got some good points, it's hard to know what I believe anymore! LOL Lem, it's amazing how much you can stir up just by venting!

Quick question, Lem, have you ever found yourself endeared to one of your patients because they SHOWED their gratitude for the job you were doing? I actually experienced something like this during my last hospital stay--after my dd was born I was resting quietly and trying to relax so my bp could drop but the lady in the room next to me (who had also delivered...I'm not going to fault her for the ruckus that went on while in labor) was RIDICULOUSLY needy. She was calling for the nurses ALL the time, even to the point of having them bring the baby to her from the isolette that was only four feet away from her bed, just because it was "their job" to see to her every need. I, on the other hand, having been through four deliveries, knew that if I treated my nurses well and with respect, I'd get treated well in return. I was. I could have gotten ridiculous and INSISTED that the nurses do everything for me because my blood pressure was skyrocketing and I had a migraine, but instead of taking an "it's your job" attitude, I asked for the help I needed and thanked them for everything they did. By the time I left the hospital, I had nurses literally going out of their way to make me comfortable...and dd and I went home with more "freebies" than H and I could carry, because the nurses wanted to make sure we were well cared for. My needy neighbor was practically ignored; the nurses only responded to her when they HAD to. They did their job with her and nothing more.

What was the difference? Admiration. Appreciation. Yes, it was their job, but that didn't mean I couldn't heap gratitude on them for a job WELL DONE. And it paid off in bunches for me.

Is there a parallel? Sure. Like KiwiJ said, the BS has a huge deficit to make up for and in many cases that admiration is something the BS has neglected, taking for granted that their S just "knows" they are appreciated. I don't think too many people, even WS's, expect to receive admiration for just hanging around after their A. That is not something that can (or should) be admired. But alas, it is the case that when a WS has a huge need for admiration, it is the responsibility of the pained BS to find something in his or her S worth admiring, even if it's just the simple fact that he takes out the trash or she makes a mean meatloaf. You do what you gotta do to get the job done.

I had a "whoah" moment a few days ago while we (the family) were watching a 60 Minutes report on the "supersizing" of the typical American home--there were these "average" Americans buying 1200 sq. ft. houses, tearing them down, and building houses in their place that were triple the size of the one they demolished. There were also "average" families living in 5000+ sq. ft. homes with ridiculous amounts of space...the kids and I were laughing at the ridiculousness of "needing" that kind of space when I heard H say under his breath as he walked out of the room in disgust, "And I work 15-hour days, 5 days a week, get deployed for 6 months at a time, and my family has to live in a house barely big enough for all of our beds". Good thing I had my radar up, or I'd have missed it. I had NO IDEA that seeing so many people around us working far less than H does with SO MUCH MORE was hurting him so much, but he needed to be told that we are HAPPY with the life he is providing. It wasn't enough for me to just think he'd KNOW that. I had to TELL him I admired the way he provides for us. If that's all he needs to have his "provider" ego stroked, I can handle that. It took a LOT of effort for me to come up with something to tell him I admired about him those first few days and weeks after D-day, but the harder I looked, the easier it became to find SOMETHING to reinforce to him that he wasn't a total loser--that he did have good points worth admiring. And yes, he needed to hear them. Heaped on him, even. I didn't do it because he DESERVED it, I did it because he NEEDED it.

Of course it also helps to have him appreciate the effort I put into making sure the meals he eats are appealing and healthy...

KiwiJ,

“As usual I never intend to get involved in these discussions and as usual I'll give the FWW perspective.”

Too late, Jen, you stepped in it, with both feet.

I am curious about your MC. So interpret this MC-wise, not as a personal interrogation, OK?

“Our MC, who was pro marriage and followed Harley principles almost to the letter, explained it to my H and I like this. She drew two columns. At the top of one she put OM or "X", at the top of the other she put "H". As my A ended at its height and hadn't reached boring and wasn't diminishing as most A's do (they do you know) severe damage control was required.

In the OM column she shaded in the whole area and said to my H, that's the OM's love bank as it stands with Jen now. She then shaded in a tiny bit at the bottom of H's column. She said "that's yours with Jen right now."

She said to H, Your job is to match OM's love bank and overtake it. She said, Jenny is not seeing the OM so his LB can't grow any more, but yours sure can. You have to be as good at, no, better than, meeting Jenny's needs than the OM was.”

Why did she draw only your two LBank accounts? Did she have anything to say about BH’s? I bet his LBank was overdrawn too. After all, you’re A lasted quite a while. I’m guessing you were not making any deposits to his account to speak of from probably a ways before your A even started.

Why does it sound as if MC was all about you? Poor BH, his LBank didn’t count?

And that comment about BH having to be better than OM. That’s a BH nightmare. That’s a sure fire recipe for ultimately failed BH personal recovery. I’m surprised he even went back to that MC.

Did your BH ever say anything about that?

Aphelion, to answer you questions. That MC session was one of very many over the course of months. It's funny you say it was all about me because I used to say she favoured my H all the time. Her one concern was getting us back together again. She made me cry on many occasion, she called me immature, selfish and a lot other things (in MC speak).

She drew my BH's account and the OM's account, not mine. Before my A we had been through a family tragedy, my father, my FIL and my MIL had all died within 6 months of each other. We were not in our "usual" state of marriage, where my H was always the strong one. But that's beside the point.

Our MC never said my H had to be better than the OM, she said he had to match whatever it was the OM was doing to meet my needs. Surprisingly, when we filled in the EN sheets there was nothing that I was doing that didn't meet his needs and that was straight from my H. He thought I wasn't doing as much around the house and that I was drinking too much.

We're talking reality here. I was not committed, not sure, withdrawn. As I said desparate measures were needed to recover us. It was 2 years ago now and I have difficulty revisiting that time. It was a horrible, horrible time. As to his personal recovery, yes, he'll never trust blindly again, yes, there are still trigger moments but you have to understand what sort of man my H is. He's "different". The depth and strength of his love and forgiveness were the first steps in our recovery and took me totally by surprise.

Does that answer your questions.

I am quite sure we are all guilty of not acknowledging someone's efforts. I got comfortable in my marriage, when my husband brought me flowers or candy, I said "thank you" but thought...."Ugh...can we really afford this???"...etc. etc.

As far as admiration goes, it's probably hard to find things that are admirable in a wayward spouse. Hard, but not impossible.

I found little things, like my WH's knowledge of his work, knowledge of cars, the fact that he loves our DD....things like that.....and had I been able to stick to a plan...I'd probably have gotten better results.

I don't think ANY BS admires the *cheating*.....how could they?? But you can find good in most anyone, if you try.

-Caren