Since WS moved out to an apt. a block away, S9 and S14 have been alternating one week with me and one wk with WS. WS was a very 'involved' dad and I don't think he ever questioned his involvment in their lives even if we separated (although I now have my doubts!) Obviously, I miss seeing them the week they are gone and they don't like living out of a 'suitcase'.

To me it was also obvious that us separating did not happen to meet the needs of the children (it's to allow WS to freely see OW, relieve some of the guilt, ME-ME-ME-ME - his answer to what about the kids? was that 'they are resilient and will adapt', that applied to me, too, which basically meant «I don't care about anybody right now except my own need to fit seeing OW in my life, and I don't want anyone to burst my bubble by bringing up the issue of how to resolve the needs of the 'other members' of the family like the wife and mom, and the kids»

At this point, it may be some of both, WS being hit a bit by the reality of the situation, and pressure from the boys that they are not happy with the arrangement, because I KNOW he loves them very much. He just did not allow himself to think about the real impact a separation would have on them (and probably me) because I think he knew he could not have moved out otherwise!

Last night there was a message from WS asking me to think about meeting with a third party to see what other options could be considered as far as arrangements about the boys is concerned because they are not happy with the current arrangement (and cannot now hide now from this reality).

The way I see it, no matter what 'arrangement' we come up with, it will always be a compromise because ideally children's needs are best met when they don't feel divided in anyway between the parents and can see and interact with them on a daily basis. Given this fact, I do think that if possibly the boys are more involved in the process of finding an arrangement that may somehow suit them a little bit better, or at least feel that their needs are being addressed or considered, it might help them to feel that their needs are not totally ignored, even if it means at least admitting/acknowledging that the current situation, separation of parents, will never do so.

However, I am in PLAN B. Given that fact, I just wondered if some of you are aware of other arrangement options for the children that are out there that we could consider that would not involve a constant contact between the parents.

One of the most obvious suggestions would be that the boys stay with me all the time and arrange to see WS when they can. But I also have seen on the boards that in those situations WS slowly diminish contact with children because it becomes easy to (and since they do have another interest on the side) even at the cost of feeling guilty and not proud of their lack involvement in their children's lives sooner or later. I, on the other hand, would rather not facilitate this possibility - I prefer a firm committment from WS so that he does not have the option of slowly move out of the boys' lives, because I feel strongly that the boys need their dad in their lives, even if he is not totally there. Regrets on his part in the future for not being more involved would resolve nothing!

I know at one point WS suggested 2 weeks each!...I can't imagine him being serious about this...not seeing them a week is already hard! (that's not totally true, boys call if they need to speak to me, my little one drops by in the morning before going to school to get a hug, and S14 'needs' something from the house so he also drops by). I don't know how that would be if WS considers moving further away, though! What a mess...

Anyway.... my intention is to reply to WS: that I would be willing to meet a third party, separately (but with the boys if helpful), to discuss other possible arrangements as long as it would respect the fact that the parents would not need to be in 'direct' contact - PLAN B. I wonder if by putting such a condition if I would be minimizing the chances of finding alternate arrangements to better suit boys.

In all honesty, I AM better able to 'function' and be there for the boys as a direct result of PLAN B - no direct contact with WS (inspite of the down side when 'details' are involved) which has helped me enormously to focus on what I need to focus on rather than 'waste' time on WS (what he thinks, does, etc.) and be totally ineffective.

Basically, I need to be clear on my position, because I can see myself being 'pressured' to be in direct contact with WS to make arrangements easier for the boys.

Anyway, I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

Luna, I vote for having the boys stay with you all the time and letting them make their arrangements to see their dad. If contact diminishes, then it diminishes. It is not up to you to maintain their relatiobship with their father. It's up to their father. It is bound to suffer some and readjust because of his actions; you should let that happen. Forcing them together in this artificial arrangement has not been good for them, as you can see.

But I would be pissed off if I had to pack up and live out of a suitcase every other week and I don't why people think kids will like it any better.

I would not involve the children in the talk. They are the children here and need the adults to act like adults and lead the way. You can see the problem and can envision a solution, that is all they need to see. However, I would talk to them and suggest this solution beforehand and get their reaction.

I don't think it would hurt anything to call up your H and make this suggestion. It doesn't have to be a face to face meeting.

I just posted to you on your other thread. My comments still run along the lines that maybe the WS needs 'less time' with the children for the sake of the childdren (note a different direction that the WS selifshly proposed). Here's my thoughts:

Ws: wants 3rd party intervention (hm.... who would he choose vs your choice?).

BS: agrees to 3rd party but be picky who is used. Must be a strong character not afraid to deal with an airhead. Willing to work with you on your terms, can see through the fog and not allow the Ws to enable the 3rd party to help with the A.

WS: wants 2 weeks with children.

BS: Hm.... seems like the WS is spending less time with the OW? Hm.... using the children as a filler instead of being a father? What does he do with his time with the boys?

Maybe the proposal c/b: Well Ws, I see you are requesting to spend more time with the boys. How will that time be spent?

Depending on his answer....you may want to offer:
a. 2 weeks with a full schedule outlined including a fair work/play schedule. Remember this is suppose t/b for the benefit of the children, so if it runs the WS ragged, then so be it.

b. less than 1 week more like every other weekend and 1 day a week. Creates a more difficult schedule for the parents but c/b easier for the children.

Hm.... note how this is NOT t/b at the convenience of the WS. Yea, life isn't about making things convenient for the WS.

Btw, being a good father while a Ws? Now that's a fantasy. If he was such a good father, the children wouldn't be having such a hard time. Yet it is their father's choice the children have a hard time. Send that message to the WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Luna,

It seems to me that moving the boys back and forth is the best thing for WH, not really the best thing for boys.

The typical schedule the courts grant is every-other weekend and one day a week. The whole purpose behind that is to minimize the move on the kids--shown to be unsettling/unhealthy --your situation is case in point. Spending time at home means something. Kids need a consistent base camp, a safe refuge--every bit as much as they need time with their dad.

What do they want to do? Aside from two week rotations (which I don't think solves the move problem really), what other solutions has WH put forth?

Melodylane, Orchid, Ahuman: thank you very much for your postings.

One of my resource persons is WS's sister - who happens to be a psychologist - and so this morning I had a long talk with her...I needed her as a sounding board... I know, she is WS's sister, but let me tell you, she knows him well and is not necessarily partial to him. My talk with her was very very helpful.

She obviously agrees that mediating a better arrangement for the boys... to minimize the damage as much as possible... get things 'out in the open' and open 'communication'...is a good idea... but she felt that the problem was not so much the boys alternating as much as WS's relationship with the boys... and that it would not hurt for WS to 'hear' this from a 3rd party. I thought she was right... the boys would not mind probably going through the trouble of going over to their dad's every week if they looked forward to seeing him and doing activities with him... because unless WS works on his R with the boys, even one afternoon with him would eventually become difficult...

Anyway, I was comfortable enough to leave a message to WS that I was willing to meet with 3rd party (I would assume it would be a professional in family mediation) with the boys or alone, who having met with us (separately) and with the boys and considered everyone's concerns, could make suggestions of possible arrangements to try that could better suit, in particular, the boys' needs... (separately from him, of course, given the current circumstance - PLAN B).

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But I would be pissed off if I had to pack up and live out of a suitcase every other week and I don't why people think kids will like it any better.
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So would I ML, and I do acknowledge that to them... and hopefully we can find a better arrangement... at the very least, someone will 'hear them' out and again remind the boys that it's not their fault in any way! (..but they sure suffer the consequences!!!)

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I vote for having the boys stay with you all the time and letting them make their arrangements to see their dad. If contact diminishes, then it diminishes. It is not up to you to maintain their relatiobship with their father. It's up to their father.
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Melodylane, if it comes to this, it will come to this....

I really really appreciate your support.

Luna, I would suggest they need more than to be "heard." They need some action. They need an adult to protect their interests instead of moving them around every week like pets. That really needs to stop, as it is not in their best interest. Since you are the only sane adult in this scenario, that responsibility falls into your lap. Since their father is only looking for his own selfish interests, it is up to you to protect them.

And like I said before, it is their father's responsibility to manage his relationship with his sons, not yours. They should not have to go through ****** to accommodate their fathers affair, if anyone is put out it should be the father.

I don't quite understand the point of meeting with a third party?

Why not make the decision of what is best for the boys and then present it to WH via email? If you want a mediator....Why not have his sister be the mediator if she really understands the heart of the issue (ie WH relationship with the boys).

I recall you mentioning in the past that throughout your M, you accommodated H a lot. Just so I understand, is this something that the boys have instigated--or is it something that WH is institating? What is his REAL motive behind all of this discussion?

Also, please be aware that if you put this question into the hands of a family mediator that person's decision could be binding. PLEASE be sure to confirm that any kind of written agreement states that the agreement is NON-binding!!

BINGO!!! It doesn't have to be hard, Luna. You are the adult here; make the decision and present it your H.

ML and Ahuman,

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it is their father's responsibility to manage his relationship with his sons
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I agree.

WS, only in his last message, has been able to admit that the boys are unhappy, and HE wants professional advice on what the problem is and options to consider (given the fact that we are separated).

I believe WS wants a relationship with the boys and I don't believe it's up to me to deny this (and I do think it's in the best interest for the boys to have one) but right now, particularly with S14, this is difficult.

I think the problem is in the way WS interacts with boys, and if help can be provided, to first, identify the problem, what WS/boys need to do to improve it, along with a better 'custody' arrangement (because I don't think this would be a problem if their R was a positive one), I do want this.

I have not consulted, but I suspect legally I know I can't justify not allowing boys to stay with WS because they are 'unhappy' when at their dad's (or that we're separated!)

WS is coming to the realization of how boys are being affected by his actions. He wants to do something about it to improve it (other than consider M recovery because that's not even on his radar) - don't know about motives - probably guilt! but if it will improve WS/boys relationship I want to allow this. I can't force him to be in a R with me, but he is an important person in boys lives and I don't what to cut that off, especially if he wants help with it, unless there is no other choice.

Definitely, I think one of the options to be discussed is that boys simply stay with me, and WS makes arrangements to see them - I will have to work around the problem of my being in PLAN B, means of communications, and the need to have a 'flexible' schedule for WS to see boys.

If WS and myself have anything in common is that we both love our boys (although at times, not well).

My SIL feels that WS/boys should be given a chance to work on their R - it will either get better or it will deteriorate (which then will take years to mend) - I am keeping an eye for signs to look for if it deteriorates.

I am divided between (a)wanting to 'protect' the boys and minimizing contact with WS, or (b) participate in process to seek professional help in identifying issues/solutions to help boys keep WS in their lives.

Right now I will give (b) a chance, and it may come to (a).

Luna, again, it is up to your H to get whatever help he needs to keep in touch with the boys. That is between he and the boys. In the meantime, your job is to protect them from this horrid custody arrangement. No one seems to be willing to protect them here.


So they are LEGALLY COMMANDED via custody orders to rotate weeks? Then why not have your attorney change this?

ML,

I maybe looking for a solution that is not out there.

I want to help boys keep/develop R with WS because I believe they need their dad in their lives even if not smooth sailing all the time (..and WS wants to but I believe he needs help), at the same time, I also don't want them to become 'suitcase' kids (new term for this 50/50 custody arrangement) without a 'home' base, because that's also something they want/need.

Right now I don't know which one is more important. I still think if WS works on his R with the boys, the 'home' base issue would be less important than a R with their dad.

I have to admit, right now, particularly for S14, he seems to be losing on both ends. If R with his dad does not improve, then having a 'home' base will at least be that.

Of course, one solution that is on the table with PBL is recovery of M - no real sign from WS that he's considering this.

ML, I really appreciate the concern you have shown. It's helping me to think this through... I really do want to do what is best for the boys under the circumstances. I also know that what they need sometimes is not what they say they want.

I am going to start by getting some feedback from the boys about how the week with dad was... I am particularly concerned about S14.

I guess I was hoping that at least the boys' R with their dad would not be affected as it has... very sad to see, because as a mom I know I can never make up the void that the boys would feel by not having their dad in their lives as much as they could.