Didn't want to threadjack LowOrbit but it got me thinking about an argument that me and my WH keep having.

I have a very strict view toward truth and lying. If my WH tells me he will do something and he doesn't, it's a lie. If I ask him about something and he withholds information, that is a lie. WH believes that it's not a lie if he can justify the circumstances (can't we always).

For example: There has been a lot of strain between us and MIL and SIL since dday. They seem to blame me for WH's A, and I have some resentment in return. (I believe they encouraged A. OW is also SIL's best friend.) Despite my feelings, I have been encouraging WH to call and check on them (MIL's health is fading) and questioning him about holiday plans (for kids). He told me that he has barely talked to them and doesn't want to see them over the holidays. I then noticed on the phone bill that he has talked to either MIL or SIL almost every day for the last month. WH says that he was trying to protect my feelings so he was justified and it wasn't a lie. I say it was a blatent lie and what else is he hiding. I also believe that regardless of how WH feels justified, he should consider my point-of-view when talking to me.

Hmm, Have you wondered if SIL has ow/bestfriend come over and make calls from their house, so that you won't catch on? Just a thought.

fbw:

I've posted this on MB several times before, but not recently. My favorite definitions of secrecy, privacy, truth, and honesty:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private:

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty:

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-Qfwfq

Nice description of the difference between truth and honesty. My FWH was prideful about being TRUTHFUL but had no clue about being honest. And for that matter - still has some to learn on that score.

It kind of depends on his intention when he makes the commitment...if he never intends to carry out his promise, then it is a lie. If he intends to, but doesn't follow through, it's simply lack of dependability. Of course, you have no way of distinguishing between the two...



It depends on WHAT you ask. If you ask him if he stopped to get gas in the car, and he says yes, but neglects to tell you about the beer he buys, then no, I don't think that's a lie. It also depends on the expectations you and he have agreed upon. If he neglects to tell you something simply because it doesn't occur to him to bring it up at the time, it is not a lie. If he neglects to give you information that he reasonably knows that you would expect him to share, it is a lie of omission.

My wife and I had this deal after the affair. I would not voluteer ANY information. She could ask anything she wanted to and I would answer fully and factually. It didn't take but two broad open ended questions before she realized I meant it. She has carefully tailored her queries since. There is much she doesn't know...by her own choosing.

In the case you have described, yes, he lied.

LO:

"My wife and I had this deal after the affair. I would not voluteer ANY information. She could ask anything she wanted to and I would answer fully and factually. It didn't take but two broad open ended questions before she realized I meant it. She has carefully tailored her queries since. There is much she doesn't know...by her own choosing."

Why not volunteer information that could potentially affect her? Why not make any effort you might be able to think of to rebuild her trust in you?

Why agree to sit down and have coffee with the FOW? - not even a straw, and the camel's back was already weakened by this "agreement" of yours.

The alternative to "radical honesty" is "measured honesty" - what you advocated with the deal you made with your wife. By definition, however, measured honesty = measured deceit.

Qfwfq (aka 2long)

***He told me that he has barely talked to them and doesn't want to see them over the holidays. I then noticed on the phone bill that he has talked to either MIL or SIL almost every day for the last month. WH says that he was trying to protect my feelings so he was justified and it wasn't a lie.***

This is absolutely a bald-faced lie.

It was justified if he was trying to protect his own a$$, because that's what it was for.

It was NOT justified if he cares about having you, or anyone else, ever trust him ever again.
Mulan

LO,

"My wife and I had this deal after the affair. I would not voluteer ANY information. She could ask anything she wanted to and I would answer fully and factually. It didn't take but two broad open ended questions before she realized I meant it. She has carefully tailored her queries since. There is much she doesn't know...by her own choosing."

I agree with Q. This is an example of one of the deep tap roots, a genuine contributor to the problems, between you and stbxw all along.

You misunderstand...SHE made this deal. SHE wanted to be in control of what she chose to know.

The salient points have been disclosed. All that remained were little things (OW's favorite perfume, etc.)

So how do you propose I go about sharing the things?

"Oh honey, in the interests of being honest and building trust, I thought I'd share with you that the OW was multi-orgasmic..." or "Our favorite movie was the OW's, too..."

I could go on...the OW's shower was always dirty but she kept a razor for me...OW was really good at OS...OW did this...I enjoyed it when she did that...

When do I stop...

THAT'S what I meant by the things she doesn't know.

LO:

Well, my W and I have a similar agreement, though it's never been vocalized. In my case, I struggle with what to even ask her, because I know there are things she hasn't told me. Like the Harley's analogy - I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

So, are things like how many orgasms the OW had or what her favorite movie is relevant? Only your W would be able to tell you, I suppose.

In my case, I knew of some details that my W hasn't volunteered, from back when I snooped after d-day but didn't want to jeopardize my sources. The sources ceased being sources several months later, so I did tell her what I'd found. Painful stuff like sexual preferences and even a favorite movie ("End of the Affair" - a stupid, very 'Hollywood' movie pretending to be "deep" but failing at it miserably). Stuff that have helped me realize that my W isn't nearly as fiercely independent as she loudly proclaims herself to be. And I would argue that the little I've been able to learn has enabled me to have more compassion for her 'humanity' - I don't dehumanize her with what I know - and this may help me to help her to help us to save our marriage, if that turns out to be the right path to take.

-Qfwfq

Basically accused him of just that, which he denied. After we argued, he started sharing some of his feelings and I began to believe him. WH has a way of shutting everyone out when something is bothering him. He has been upset that they didn't want to see him over the holidays or share an important event with him this past weekend. Me, the woman he betrayed, was the only family that shared this special event with him, although we found out later that MIL and SIL were there but didn't let him know.

This has definitely set us back further than he realizes. I still have a red flag waving in the back of my mind. However, he lies like this to other people and always refuses to admit that he lied.