I'm switching back to this thread but may respond if I have time later on here to the last posts on the other thread.

Be disgusted with me: I did call Mr. Guy last night. Partly not being able to stand not hearing from him at all, and partly genuine concern because it was unlike him to be so silent.

Nothing new. We talked about his kids, their Christmas and NY plans, his day, my day, that's about it. And then I told him that I figured he needed some space when I didn't hear from him, but thanked him for calling me back because I did want to know if everything was okay with his family.

His same familiar response, "I'm very conflicted..."

With that, we we said good-bye and ended the call because he was in his car driving home and we were cutting out.

Okay, so my take--he's "conflicted" in that maybe he does still have some feelings for me, but he wants sex and that's making him mad and there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. It's either all or don't see me at all. So he's slowly fading away in the hopes that I'll let go and he'll not actually have to say, "LL, get lost."

But that's very hard on me because I don't know what to think, what to do, other than twiddle my thumbs and wonder whats next. And then I think, "Am I actually being pessimistic and giving up hope and creating a self-fulfillng prophesy?"

I agree with you all, though. I am obsessing. (No, I'm not OCD--I don't have to do things repetitively, I don't have to have things in certain orders, I don't check stoves or lights over and over, I don't do those types of things. I'm sort of the absence of all that. I forget to shut things off. I leave candles burning if I'm not careful. Stuff like that. The things that make me think I'm a bit ADD.)

So I woke this morning, feeling about the same as all other mornings. I have 2 days to do my Christmas shopping and no desire to do it. I miss human touch badly from someone I trust and care about! And my kids aren't ever around during my waking hours so I can't even beg a hug off of them.

My house is truly a wreck now that both kids are home. I haven't made it home from work until close to 9pm all week, and there's no desire or energy with my current depression to jump in and clean house at that point.

And this is the first year in 19 years that I don't get to take the week between Christmas and New Years Day off as vacation, because I changed jobs and have no vacation until February, so I have no mental "down time" to look forward to this year, and because I roll directly into my audit prep after the holidays which demands a lot of work time, I'd guess things are going to just stay a mess for a while.

So, I got up this morning, walked downstairs to let the dogs out, and the TV was on (DD must have been awake in the middle of the night as usual) and a song was playing on MTV...one that Mr. Guy used to sing to me when we were driving in the car and it was on the radio.

Everywhere I turn, try as I may to tune him out, SOMETHING has to pop up and remind me of the good times.

So how long do I go along with this "conflicted limbo" if he doesn't come to some kind of conclusion--either start seeing me again and trying to keep things on the up and up, or tell me it's over?

LL

Stop it today with a phone call. I think that everyone on the board would agree that no matter what other circumstances exist, that you have more healing to do before you date. I would highly recommend that the next time you talk to Mr. Awesome guy that you tell him y’all need to take a break while you get your head on straight the Get ‘Er Did….. Get into or continue going to counseling, dear, you truly cannot afford not to be there. Get comfortable within your own skin, something I’d wager you haven’t been in like forever. And once you are truly comfortable, happy, and peaceful within yourself, then pursue a relationship…..


You make that call and there is no more limbo, you know exactly where you are at and you control how you got there. And please take a minute to read what I just posted on '1ConfusedGuys' thread about grieving and dating...

Every "I'm conflicted" is different. When I was breaking up with J, I was conflicted. The more he pushed, begged, rationalized, whined, and questioned me, the more he pushed me away. His clinginess pushed me away further and helped me decide that I coudln't deal with him... couldn't negotiate.... and proved to me that he wasn't healthy. So my answer was always honest: I was conflicted (undecided), but his behavior during that time helped me decide.

Does that make sense?

Mr. Guy may be undecided, but your behavior right now is helping his decide if he wants to stick around or not. Get yourself healthy, and that's the only chance you'll have with him or anyone else. He doesn't want to be the center of your universe. He doesn't want someone that can't function well enough to clean her house or get her christmas shopping done. Let him go (either take LH's advice, or just let him go in your mind and give this some time) and work on yourself, LL. You really could benefit from professional counseling. You are not able to correct these behaviors and attitudes on your own, or with reaching out to us and pastors, and that means you need more help.

Lordslady - let him go and get yourself in order.... Make a list of the things you have to be thankful for - and how worse off alot of other people are - and then put a smile on your face and put one foot in front of the other... I agree with LH and Faith1 -- Let it go - it might not be forever...

Okay, just two FYI's for everyone... (and I'll put them on both of my threads since the "urgent" one still gets some posts even though I intended it to just be short term)

1) I have a therapy appointment next Tuesday with a woman at a Christian counseling service. I know nothing about her or the office--pulled them out of the Yellow Pages because they are at least on my side of town. My out-of-pocket will be $35/session which could be worse, I guess. It will all go on a credit card. I truly feel rather unfixable sometimes, because I'm not ready to cope with the "you may be alone forever" option, but I'll go see her and pray that she truly is Christian and that God will work through her to help me and that he will work on me so that I can be helped.

I don't really know where else to turn for one-on-one Christian help. My pastors' wives STILL have not called me, and the only talk I've had lately with either pastor was when I called one a few days ago. They'll say, "Oh, I was going to call you...", but no one ever does. I think it would be better if my church was bigger and we had elders who were each responsible for a group of people, but we don't. So the pastors are responsible for everyone and everything, and they're just too busy to give personal attention.

2) Mr. Guy emailed me today--first time this week. It was just a short email, more or less rubbing it in that I have to work tomorrow and he's now off for two weeks on Christmas break and telling me about some really goofy dream he had last night. It was friendly, but nothing more. I did email back--just commented on his comments. Hopefully that wasn't pushy. I will pace my floors if necessary tonight and won't call him--from what he said last night he's planning on playing poker with his brother and friends tonight before he gets his kids for the next several days.

I am not going to call him about "taking a break" or "breaking things off" before Christmas. As crazy as this is driving me, I think to do that right now would be even harder, and probably not fair to him either (or maybe it would provide him with intense relief...he wouldn't be "conflicted"). Analyzing again. Should I? Shouldn't I? Oh, to be able to actually make a decision just once.

LL

I hate to break this to you but he's already shown his decision. Are you watching? Actions speak louder than words....


Me, personally, rather than pace the floors over the obvious. I would end it, friendly, and today. Then instead of pacing the floors over all the things beyond your control, you could start working on all the things within your control. Someone suggested a gratitude list, those are wonderful, I used to have one taped to my frig.....

So when I asked earlier if "conflicted" meant DONE or if it meant STILL TRYING TO DECIDE, and I thought I heard the latter, it really means the former?

Bill, you could have just as well kicked me in the chest with your last post. I know...for my own good. But then why did he email me at all? I didn't email him first this time?

LL

Why wouldn't you tell him that you are not pleased with his way of dealing with the situation?
Then "plan B".
Make him losing you if..., not opposite.
Gain some respect from him no matter final results.
Because that way you'd earn some respect for yourself, and that's what you need more than what he thinks, what he'll decide.

Belonging,

First...gotta' be honest. I STUNK at Plan B when trying to save my marriage. I wasn't good at it until I had made up my mind I was done with the marriage and I filed DV, and then it was easier.

But your idea isn't a bad one. I truly am not happy that I'm just sort of "on hold". It can't go on like this forever with him just thinking, "being conflicted", avoiding or whatever he's doing. We're not dating and thus I wouldn't consider us a "couple", but he's made it very clear that he's not looking for other dates right now either.

I know most of you think I have no business dating right now, but even if I wanted to, I can't, because won't do that until/unless I know he and I are totally done.

I will continue to pace and go nutty during the holidays (sorry, Bill, I just can't bring myself to make that call right now), but once they are over, or at least once Christmas is over, we may have to have a talk about "either decide to date me, deal with the boundaries, and see how we do" or I'm considering us done and free to date others". (And Lord give me strength if I have to have that conversation.)

Right now I'd give a lot to just have someone this holiday weekend who I loved and trusted enough to let them just hug me and be there with me. Dogs are great for snuggling in bed, but they aren't really filling this need. I truly am lonely, and I don't know who to reach out to. Everyone is busy with their own lives, even my kids (my DD has all her friends and my DS has his girlfriend).

LL

What is one holiday with someone missed compared to many of them you might gain?

I again suggest '180 degree' (for, after all, you still want him).

I don't think 180 degree or plan B will help. I think it's too far gone. But I'm not ruling out those ideas.

My holiday issues are that I will be alone--no "him", probably no kids for a fair portion of the weekend, a dead MB message board (you guys may just be internet friends, but you have been my lifeline), my church pastors will be with their families doing holiday things as will my sis (my other "friend") with her hubby and kids. It's not that I'll just be missing "him", I'm going to just flat out be very alone during a very difficult time. I'm dreading it because it's hard enough to keep from obsessing over things when I have diversions. When it's just me and the dogs and the one-eyed cat, it's tough. They love me, but they can't talk to me.

LL

Please, please, focus on your daughter right now. You have only a year + with her and yet you are consumed with Mr. Guy (not judging you here - just looking from a fellow divorced mom's perspective). While he may be "all that," you cannot ever redo your time with your child. You have to connect with her, in my opinion, before it's too late. Forget the "feel good" stuff with him and focus on your child - you'll have time for "the one" later, but you cannot replace the time you have left with your child.

I do focus on my daughter. I truly am out of ideas with her. I try, and try, and try to connect. She tunes me out. She swears at me. She blares her music so she doesn't have to listen to me. She says hateful things. She leaves while I'm at work. She expects everything but does nothing. There are days where if you want to talk about a love bank being empty, she's done a fine job emptying mine and it's tempting sometimes when she threatens with her "Kick me out then!" not to just help her pack her suitcase.

But she is my daughter, and if I truly thought someone was hurting her and I could prove it, I'd probably gouge their eyeballs out with my fingernails.

I take the moments when she's home and not with friends and feeling like talking, and we talk. They are few and far between. I look for opportunities to get in a word of wisdom or two. Like her therapist told me on one of her final sessions..."LL, you've taught her everything you can at this point. She gets it. She just has to decide now if she's going to agree with it."

So I try and set a good example with my life (moping around lately isn't doing much toward that), and just be open with her when she asks me questions. She shoots very straight. There are times she'll own up to things in her own life that I would have never dreamed of telling my own parent. Then she'll ask very pointed questions of me.."Mom, have you done this or that ever?" I won't lie. I'm truthful. We've had some very open conversations. She's cried on my shoulder when she's lost a boyfriend.

But generally, this is the exception rather than the norm. She is on a downhill spiral and I don't know how to stop it, nor does anyone else seem to know either. All I can do is pray that she stays safe and that eventually a little maturity sets in.

I have no other ideas. Parenting her is NOTHING like parenting my son was.

LL

(((LordsLady)))

I've been a little rough around the edges with you this week and for that I apolagize. Again, I pray that you understand that this is done with guinuine love and concern for you. And believe it or not I do have faith that you are going to come through this deal and have a wonderful life. Heck, I totally believe that you are the only person standing in the way of God's will and that amazing experience.

As for Mr. Awesome Guy, I don't know what else to tell you on that front. I know how much you profess to love him but I, personally, see that whole situation as a train wreck in delayed slow motion for a multitude of reasons, and admit that it hurts me to watch you hurt yourself. I am glad that you have found some counseling and am anxious to see how that goes.

After today, I'll be out through Monday. I'm spending Christmas eve and part of Christmas day alone and I'm OK with that, there was a time that I wasn't. Anywho, I guess that means you get a couple days off from my flying 2x4's. I do encourage you to dive into the book of James, as well as spend some time reading about the miracle. And LordsLady, I know it sounds silly, but write out that gratitude list. It works and it gets you out of the negative side of yourself. Write it out. Then pray over all the items on it giving thanks. Then listen.......

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

oh yeah and Merry Christmas....May the Lord provide you shelter under His mighty wings until this storm passes...

Thanks Bill,

I know you're just trying to help. I'm just having one devil of a time dealing with the pain and grief and sadness and worry, and it couldn't have come at a worse time of year.

I hope you have a nice Christmas holiday. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this message board probably being completely dead, because it's been my lifeline more than just about anything else over the last couple years.

The kids and I are going to the ex-in-laws for Christmas Eve. My ex and his fiancee declined their invitation, so they envited us instead. I still take it as a good thing--they still like me and consider me part of the family. But it's going to be tough when the inevitable questions of "so are you seeing anyone?" come up. I'm going to be forcing the happy face. But at least it's a momentary diversion for the day tomorrow. Christmas Day and Monday will be the true tough days because they will be very lonely.

I do read James, at least the first few chapters over and over. It frustrates me though because I can't seem to make myself "count it as joy" when I suffer trials. It doesn't feel joyful. It feels awful.

I know this is a question that probably no one can really answer, but do you think there is a guy out there for me who IS someone who will wait, and who IS someone who will love me for me, faults and all? And do you think there's any hope this may happen before I'm 60 years old? It just feels very hopeless to me at this point.

I did go back and read my thread where I surveyed guys to see who would wait, and yes there are several who say if it were the right woman, they would, even for non-biblical reasons. But I just wonder if talk is cheap while they're not in the situation, but if the situation actually arose, how well they'd really do.

I am counting the days until my therapy (buy-a-friend, is sort of how I feel about therapy, which is part of why it bugs me) on Tuesday and am hoping her schedule is free enough that she can see me maybe 2x a week for a while.

Other than that, I just don't have much to report. Mr. Guy didn't call me last night, but I'm not surprised. He did say he was paying poker and I know it probably ran until 11pm or midnight and he knows I work today. I don't know if I should call him at all before Christmas. He has his kids as of this morning. I don't want to get him all upset over things. And chances are, if he's with the kids and at his parents' house, his cell is in his car and I won't get him anyway until he checks it later in the evening. I know his pattern there.

At this point, I think I'm just not ready to let go of hearing from him. I've tried to offset all the great and fun things we've done over the last 5 months and think of every bad thing or every red flag I could come up with just to try and convince myself that he's wrong for me and that it's for the best if it ends. Not too successful, but these are the main ones I've come up with.

1) He's very sexually driven, and made a statement that he equates "good sex life with relationship is good".

2) Although he's only been in 3 long-term relationships since his DV (me being one), he has dated at least 40+ people because he's a person to date them once and decide yes or no. Does this mean he's extremely focused on physical appearance? Is this a danger as we age and change? He's made it clear that all three of his L/T relationships as well as his marriage have been with very attractive women.

3) He isn't willing to spend time around my daughter for the most part anymore because he can't cope with how she treats me, and he knows he can't say anything.

4) We are 115 miles apart. There is no guarantee that in 2 years he'd be ready/willing to move from his area.

5) He jokes around a lot about woman/woman relationships and seeing me with another woman. While we've laughed it off as men's biggest fantasy, could that be a sign that he is going to need more and more excitement as time goes on? Fantasies like that make me uncomfortable because of my beliefs.

6) He has made it clear that he gets, uh, sexual release on probably a daily basis. And many times on weekends when we've been together, it's been a 2-3 times in a day thing. Is this excessive? I get the feeling it's more than he used to desire, and that the urge has gotten stronger as he's gotten older and through the life experiences he's had. That's why I wonder sometimes if it's his way of dealing with his anger (which he still very much feels toward his ex after 5.5 years of being DV) and of the loss of power or control in his life that he feels. When he's having sex, he feels like life is "normal" and good.

I won't bother to create the list of dozens of wonderful things about him. They only serve to make me sad.

LL

Good luck with your therapist...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Well this sure came out of left field... WTF is that all about????

AGG

””Christmas Day and Monday will be the true tough days because they will be very lonely.”””

IMVHO, being lonely is a choice whether you are alone or not. I can be lonely in a room full of people, heck even if they are people I like. Yet, I may not be lonely when I am alone. It’s about attitude.

”””I can't seem to make myself "count it as joy" when I suffer trials. It doesn't feel joyful.”””

That brings up my favorite verse in the bible Romans 5:1-5 states “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access* to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us”

You, my dear, are in a character building time of life and should have hope. Let’s say for pretends that you and Mr. Awesome Dude hooked up and did the deal. Where would your personal growth go? It would stop and quite frankly that would be a sad proposition. However, because of these circumstance you are FINALLY seeking counseling, an opportunity for growth. So when you come out the other side of this deal a healthier person and God does place the ‘one’ in your life then you will be grateful for your sufferings of today.


”””I know this is a question that probably no one can really answer, but do you think there is a guy out there for me who IS someone who will wait, and who IS someone who will love me for me, faults and all? And do you think there's any hope this may happen before I'm 60 years old?”””

Do I think so, yes. I truly believe there is that type of guy out there for you but I don’t believe you can see him now. Why? Because I believe you’re walking right now with a blindfold on holding on to and settling for what you can touch. I further believe that when you grow and become independently healthy that the blindfold will be removed and at the point you will be able to see. You will be able to respect yourself and love yourself, therefore, you will settle for nothing less than that from a partner.

”””I don't know if I should call him at all before Christmas.”””

Call him at 10:00am on Christmas morning and simply wish him a Merry Christmas whether it be on a voice mail or on the phone. Don’t ask that he call and don’t wait for a call, just do this as a kind gesture.

“””he's wrong for me and that it's for the best if it ends.”””

LL, while I do believe he probably is wrong for you, I also believe that as you are right now, most would be wrong because you ain’t there yet. To me, you’re like shattered glass thrown about. However with some work, that glass will be put back together, then as the light of health shines through it the reflections will be beautiful.

“””He's very sexually driven, and made a statement that he equates "good sex life with relationship is good".”””

Well it’s obvious what his top need is…….

”””He isn't willing to spend time around my daughter for the most part anymore because he can't cope with how she treats me, and he knows he can't say anything.”””

That’s the biggie to me. Granted, I can relate to his feelings, because they are probably similar to the frustration I’ve felt when talking to you about him. No one wants to see another treated poorly and not have the power to help or have their help fall on deaf ears. But honestly, I truly believe that as part of your therapy this too will change. You don’t enforce boundaries or demand respect from a potential mate, it would be insane to assume that you’d be any different with your daughter. From my vantage point, both relationships scream of issues arising from living with your addicted husband. The behaviors are text book enabling. Again, given that you are living the life, I’m quite sure it’s difficult for you to see but from the outside the vision seems quite clear.

”””He jokes around a lot about woman/woman relationships and seeing me with another woman. While we've laughed it off as men's biggest fantasy, could that be a sign that he is going to need more and more excitement as time goes on? Fantasies like that make me uncomfortable because of my beliefs.”””

WOW…. Hadn’t heard that from you before about Mr Awesome…. OUCH!!!! HUGE…HUGE… HUGE Red FLAG…. HEY THAT’S A BIG RED FLAG… BTW LL, THAT’S A HUGE RED FLAG…. Oh yeah, RED FLAG HERE…….

”””He has made it clear that he gets, uh, sexual release on probably a daily basis. And many times on weekends when we've been together, it's been a 2-3 times in a day thing. Is this excessive?”””

WOW…. Hadn’t heard that from you before about Mr Awesome…. OUCH!!!! HUGE…HUGE… HUGE Red FLAG…. HEY THAT’S A BIG RED FLAG… BTW LL, THAT’S A HUGE RED FLAG…. Oh yeah, RED FLAG HERE……. Yes that is excessive…. That’s addict behavior and of course, you should be drawn to that because you lived with an addict. THAT IS NOT A SIGN OF HEALTH THAT IS A SIGN OF SICKNESS……..

AGG,

It's always been sort of a joke thing, because we'll talk about how he understands how women could find other women attractive, because HE finds women attractive, but doesn't get how men could find other men attractive because he doesn't see men as attractive. And so I said, "Yes, I admit that there is something artistic and attractive about a woman", because there is, but I certainly don't swing that way. Since then, it sort of became this thing he jokes about. But now I'm questioning everything, because I don't know what's truth and what's not.

LH,


Agreed...when things are stable and good, I don't mind being alone for an evening, or even a week of evenings. I did it a lot last spring. But right now, when I can't get my brain to shut up and stop going back to the same thoughts over and over, having nothing and no one to distract me...just sitting there in my house by myself...no one really even to post to or call, that's hard. I can pray, I can read the Bible, but I will still have problems with the thoughts driving me nuts.


But right now I can't seem to see past "the one" I love. For some reason today is harder than yesterday or the day before. I really do feel awful today. Maybe it's because I'm now at the point where I can no longer deny that my holiday hopes and dreams with him are going up in smoke.

The two last items you mentioned...the BIG RED FLAGS...well, one came up before we stopped the sex thing. The other...the number of times he requires release...that didn't come up until after we stopped. But I was aware of his strong need for sex, and I had an idea that he was taking care of things on his own from time to time when I wasn't with him.

I admit to wondering if there is a hint of addictive behavior there, but because he doesn't and has never done the porn thing, he doesn't sleep around casually, and he never was unfaithful to his wife, I didn't see classic "addict" signs. He's also not addicted to anything else...he rarely drinks, has never touched drugs, and other than playing a little poker, he lives a pretty calm life. I just saw someone who had a very high need for sex and I think that's why he has a hard time not being in a relationship, even if the relationship isn't a good one for him (i.e., the last woman of 2.5 years who continued to see someone off and on while she was seeing him. They'd break up, and then she'd beg to come back and he'd take her back. I believe he loved her and truly wanted to give her another and another chance, but I also know that he was probably getting some pretty good make-up sex out of the deal.)

I really need a true friend right now (oh yeah, don't have one...that's right). I don't need to be alone. Not a good thing.

LL

“””But right now I can't seem to see past "the one" I love.”””

I can relate to that and I’m sure you can also relate it back to the end days of your marriage, I know I can. At the end stages of my marriage, I couldn’t see past ‘the one’, when in reality what I couldn’t see past was the loss of a dream that I never truly had. That coupled with the fear of the unknown. The red flags were waving all around me yet that dream kept me trying.

“””I admit to wondering if there is a hint of addictive behavior there”””

This is where I plop down my BullButter Enabler Card…. I’m sorry, but IMVHO, anyone who has to spank their monkey twice a day to function in society has got issues, serious deep down dark issues. Couple that with some of the other things that you are now bringing to light and you have the making of a sexually disturbed individual, not Mr. Awesome Christian Values Guy in the least. Because you ain’t seen what you view as stereotypical SA items (porn, sleeping around) doesn’t not withdrawal from the fact that the boy got serious issues.

“””but because he doesn't and has never done the porn thing, he doesn't sleep around casually, and he never was unfaithful to his wife, I didn't see classic "addict" signs.”””

I guess that would depend on how one defines “classic”………

“””I really need a true friend right now”””

I know you can’t touch us or hear us but you have some wonderful friends here. There’s a core group of people who love you enough to tell you how it is.

“””I don't need to be alone. Not a good thing.”””

Aww, but you can make it better if you choose to. Grab a pen and pad and start like this:

1. I am grateful for the frost on the trees and that God let’s me see His canvas every morning.
2. xxxxxxxxxx

Sit and do this for an hour. One hour. Then take your list and pray outloud to God and thank him for everything on that list and tell Him why your grateful for every item on that list. When you go to bed tonight, read that list before you go to sleep. Then pray and go to bed. When you wake up, read that list, then pray then start your day. If you start obsessing, whip it out, and start adding to the list. Then repeat the process.