KaylaAndy,

Is there a chance that we could communicate off the forums by email? I am hoping you may be able to expound on your last post to me (2dec @ 0735hrs) in a way that gets through my thick rock-head.

thegarmans@hotmail.com

Thanks,

Tired_Dad / Damage_Inc

Out of respect for healthy boundaries, that conversation would need to be held here (husband and I POJA no one-to-one e-mails with opposite genders).


This approach to conflict comes from several sources I've studied over the years - Wayne Dyer - "Your Spiritual Self" (I think that's the name of it), Don Miguel Ruiz - "The Four Agreements", Bob Proctor - "You Were Born Rich", and Lynn Grabhorn - "Excuse Me Your Life Is Waiting".

And Yoda says it in his advice to Anikan in their last one-to-one conversation before Anikan turned completely to the dark side. "You must let go of that which you are afraid to lose."

It takes time to become "harmless" to someone you have a multi-year track-record of harm. You can't "make" them see that you are harmless. It comes only over time - as you become one who is not easily provoked, who acts congruently every single time from a place of love and patience.

I can tell you more about getting out of God's way in regard to your marriage - but keep in mind that most of what I share with you will seem counter-intuitive to what "feels" like the thing to do.

What can I assist you in understanding?

My intent in seeking to have commo with you outside of the forums was to avoid my W from keeping up on all my issues. I cannot "read between the lines", takes hints ect... I need the 2x4 across the forehead telling me concrete steps. Me needing to be clearly advised like this does not imply a lack of desire on my part to do the right thing.

My impression is that my W feels that me wanting to be told what actions to take means that it doesn't mean enough to me to figure it out on my own. And now that she has filed for divorce, I worry that in the end, we will divorce as I still struggle around in the dark trying to find the answer. And it frustrates me greatly to know that I am trying, but cannot find that light switch in the dark. I want to find that switch more than anything, I want that light on more than anything. But I am the type of person who needs someone to tell me "move to the right", "reach up", etc...



I was watching this with my boys about 2 weeks ago and heard that quote. I was really thinking about how much it fit me, but then thought "man, I MUST be crazy to be to the point of seriously taking advice from a puppet!"

I think my BIGGEST fault in the 12yrs of my marriage was in being so insecure, being so afraid of losing W, that I subconsciously or not decided that since it would kill me to lose her, I would not allow myself to appear too emotionally attached to her, so that when she did leave me, I could act as if it wasn't as devastating as I know it would be inside. The fear of losing the most important person in my life caused me to not allow her to fully be the most important person in my life as a way of me trying to avoid the hurt of losing her.
I never fully gave myself to her because I was too afraid.

We talked briefly last night. I told her that I wanted to be able to help her heal from the ways I hurt her in the past. I can see that my past actions have left deeper, stronger scars on her than her A has left on me. I asked her to tell me HOW to help, HOW to be there for her the way she needs. I told her that her needing to tell me doesn't diminish my desire to do it. She just said "I don't think you CAN do it".



But she has now put a countdown on our marriage by filing. Time is not a luxury I have. In 88 days our divorce will be final, our marriage will be over.

Please try to explain to me your following quotes. I want to understand them, but can't seem to grasp it.





And finally, yes, please do the following...

Forgive me folks for butting in but I just wanted T_D to remember that divorce is a legal state NOT an immediate emotional/spiritual one [especially when there is still plenty of love in each other's hearts]. I think it would be safe to say that if the unlikely were to occur and you fell in love and married another woman in less a year after your divorce, that your STBXW would be devastated. My point is that even if the divorce gets finalized, there is still a chance for reconciliation further down the road.

TMCM

I realize that. A therapist will help you with that part. My sharing will have to be public. Haven't you noticed, people tend to live what they fear. Read the story of Job sometime - he says right in Chapter 3 that what he feared the most had come to visit upon him. I have come to believe that the inspiration behind the inclusion of the story of Job in the Bible aligns with the first message of the angels to the shepherds: "FEAR NOT!" Fear is an emotion that can be overcome. And in your case, must be overcome - I believe fear contributes to the impulse to abuse/control/etc. Yep - Fear really bites. It causes abuse, neglect, poverty, etc. We get what we focus on - and fear is so potent an emotion, it's really hard to be faithful - think of fear as a form of infidelity and you get the picture of how it violates your soul and your relationship with God. The pain you feel every time you think of your wife being unfaithful - I want you to think of how your fear has harmed your relationship with God in the very same way. Are you more concerned with losing your marriage than you are of how your fear will cost you your soul? (It won't stop with divorce.) And it's not yours primarily to do. Again, do you think you can do more than God can to heal your wife? Put your trust in him - Recite the prayer of St. Francis of Assisi - Lord, Make me an instrument of Thy peace... Learn it - internalize it. And then be still and let HIM inspire you to good works. Asking your wife what you need to do is like an ER doctor asking the patient how to operate on his/her broken body.
Please try to explain to me your following quotes. I want to understand them, but can't seem to grasp it.

When you focus on trying to fix your wife's broken heart, you are focused on the wrong target. YOU must be the target of your focus for change and healing.

In the basic religious text that my Church studies as a companion to the Bible - there is a story of the son of Alma, who like Saul, has been persecuting the faithful. He, with four sons of the king have been pretty bad fellows. But Alma is the prophet - and his son's behavior has led many away from the faith. Alma's son and his friends are confronted by an angel one day - and the angel's rebuke is focused on this son - who falls to the ground in a coma. His friends carry him to his father's home and for three days, Alma encourages people to pray for his son. Meanwhile, the son is going through the self-confrontation where he sees all his bad behaviors and evil thoughts for what they are - an offense with eternal consequences. It is only when he remembers that Jesus Christ atoned for his sins, that he is freed from the torment. He comes out of the coma, and from that day on, he focuses on the actions of a repentant man - he becomes a missionary, teaching the gospel wherever God leads him. The four sons of the king also turn.

See, Alma's son didn't go through this whole process of having to heal from what had offended him in the first place. His mighty change of heart had him totally focused that HIS OWN ACTIONS condemned him - no excuses.

You have a great deal of work to do on yourself. God hasn't put you into a coma - but rather, you have full consciousness and life continues on around you. You must stay focused on correcting the character defects that keep you from trusting Him fully and completely with your marriage. When you do that you will not have time to be concerned about a pending divorce, or what your wife thinks about you. Become a new man!
So far we've talked about the #1 thing that keeps you stepping between your wife and God - FEAR. Become a man who isn't afraid of what happens in 87 days. 3 months is a very long time. Trust that God is working on your wife's heart as you allow Him to change yours. Trust also that your wife has a conscience. And God will work on that very much - if her coldness toward you has to do with meeting up with the OM again, she will never have peace in her heart about her actions - so long as you do not add to her sense of justification.

God has led you to this web site. Plan A is about becoming the man your wife fell in love with. She did not fall in love with a fearful man. She fell in love with the good part of you. So you partner with God to be a new man who is all those things and more - not with the idea of saving your marriage, but with the idea of saving your soul.

Remember this phrase - We live our best, we repent, we turn to God - and allow His grace to save us.

KaylaAndy,

Well, I have tried implementing some of your suggestions, even included them on a piece of paper I carry around with things I try to keep conscious of re: my behavior, etc... that i read several times a day to try to re-inforce.

BUT, I will admit, there are some things about your suggestions that are just not emotionally possible for me.

IF we had confronted our M issues before her A happened, I could cope with doing all I could to make good on my past transgressions without expecting / needing anything back from her. However, with her A in the picture, that changes EVERYTHING. It is just not reasonable or emotionally possible for me to attempt to make good on past transgressions while not recieving any signs of caring, etc... when I am also still dealing with the issue of her A. The A and it's effects on me have still not been adequately addressed. I am still deeply affected by it.

A workable situation would have been me doing EVERYTHING I could to help her heal from my past transgressions while at the same time her doing the same for me to assist me in healing from her A. I would even accept SOME efforts by her while I try to do the lions share of the effort.

In the past 6-7 weeks I have not yelled or had an AO a single time. She has yelled at me numerous times. I have made some caustic, sarcastic remarks and I know that I need to eliminate those. However, she doesn't even bother with sarcasm, she goes to directly hurtful remarks.

I went to see our MC (hadn't seen her in over 2 months, since seperation started). MC said at the end that she thought I was much calmer, showed awareness of the situation in a rational way, was circumspect, and she thought in a much better state of mind than I was for the first 2 months post d-day. She said she was going to call W and ask if she would resume MC with the intent to save the M. This was last Wednesday. W says she has not heard from MC.

I also spoke with Dr Harley last week. He really wants to speak with W, but she refuses that.

I guess I should have put this bottom line at the top. She is adamat that we ARE going to D. She has been adamat about it for 2-3 weeks now. She said either I work with her on a dissolution or she will have me served.
I have made it known to her clearly that it is not what I want.

I have still maintaned my intent to not burn any bridges. I try to be as nice and friendly as possible. I will admit that there are times when my frustration at her indifference or hostility grows to the point that I have an attitude around her.

I do appreciate your input and feel that your suggestions probably would have been more effective if an A was not thrown in to the equation.

I have tried to explain to her that for the first 2 months post-d day I was in such shock and hurt that I was unable to fully accept her attempts to reconcile. I just couldn't. Now I feel that I am, but she says now she feels so emotionally separated from me that she definaltey cannot try again.

All I know is that I have heard her tell me she CANNOT try again and that we are DEFINATLEY getting a divirce to the point that any remaining hope I had is gone.

Again, I will do my best not to burn any bridges, to continue to work on my issues, etc... since creating any more hard feelings at thsi point is meaningless and will only hurt teh kids more than what they are already going to have to suffer through.

Imagine if you will, Our Lord and Savior - looking at the thief on the cross - in Gethsemane he had suffered the magnitude of ALL sins, and He knew intimately the pain and suffering this sinner had caused him - and in in just a phrase said, "I love you, in spite of the suffering - you are welcome to join me and come into my kingdom."

So when your wife insists that she cannot try again, and that you are DEFINITELY getting a divorce, that has NOTHING to do with who you are now - she's trying to divorce the man you are leaving too! So be a disciple - follow Jesus' example and just say, "I love you anyway" in YOUR ACTIONS - not in your words (words will only provoke her wrath.)

And you said this:

Thank God for the A - bless it in your heart, because truth be told, without the A you would still not be awake! You have an opportunity to change - not to save the marriage, but to become a Godly man!

You are still trying to put your ladder against the wrong wall.

There's a book I really suggest you pick up - and every betrayed spouse would do well to read it, internalize it's principles, etc. The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. The first principle is to Be impeccible with your word. Find out what that means, Tired Dad. And as you do, remember what he says about judgment. The second principle is EXTREMELY important in your situation ... Do not take anything personally. Not anger, not threats, not praise.... Find out what that means. Then put these two principles into practice - the other two will follow. But these two are crucial to your personal recovery and progress on the path to becoming a disciple.

Oh - one last thing - I notice the same regret - if only I had learned this BEFORE the A - I just can't overcome the A.

Well, Jesus overcame ALL sin - not just angry outbursts! So you will have to overcome your feelings about the A too if you ever hope to recover your soul. Gratefully, Jesus is a good partner to do this with - because he has felt every pain that you suffer now -

Remember this also - the atonement isn't just for the sinners. If so, mercy would rob justice. The atonement is also for the healing of those who were sinned against. That means your broken heart can be healed if you take His name upon you. But is also covers for your wife's broken heart as well - He suffered every pain, every humiliation and every strike of fear that you put into her - and she can be healed. Allow Him that privilege and get out of His way!

I can and am overcoming the A. Thoughts of it used to overwhelm me. Now, when thoughts of it come up, which truly is not that often, I just think "What a crappy thing that was for her to do". Then I move on to something else. In all truthfulness, I do not think of it often because most of my thoughts these days are focused on my marraige in it's current state and my desire to try to salvage it so that it can be transformed in to what it should have been all along. She destroyed it for 2 months, I wreaked havoc on it for 11 yrs, 1 month....

I understand that I have to let go of my feelings of need for her. I am not going to use "needy love", because I think in a good marriage both spouses should be able to "need" their spouse, just in a healthy sense and not a desperate unhealthy sense.

In retrospect I can see where my fear of being hurt by her actually prevented me from allowing myself to show her the depths of my feelings for her. I kept her at arms length so that if I lost her I could "save face" by putting on the front of it not being a big deal to me.

Live and learn I guess. I wish that my learning could benefit her in a transformed marriage, and not someone else in the future. But she does not feel that this is possible, and in the end, I cannot stop her from ending the marriage and ending our family.