julieco, I posted a reply on your thread. Be strong, keep it up, you will get what you need. I'm sure. Good luck.

Repentent, my [censored]!! She has not seemed repentent. Repent means to TURN AWAY FROM. Her actions have been anything but. She has lied to you repeatedly and snuck around behind your back to cat around with other men. That AIN'T that behavior of a "repentent" woman.

That is the behavior of someone who is committed to catting around but just talks a good game so you won't interfere with her fun.

Talk is CHEAP with a WS, wnh. You must ignore her words and focus on her actions.

(from Wikipedia) Hope is a belief that desirable things are obtainable regardless of the remoteness of the probabilities. That means "I can [get well, rich, happy etc] no matter how [sick, poor, miserable etc] I am." It does not mean "I will get well, rich, happy etc." - which is "positive thinking" not always based in facts. According to the above definition, hope recognizes probabilities, but is not attached to the outcome. Hope also implies a certain amount of perseverance, believing that something is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary. Hope may be directed toward something minor or towards something extremely significant. "False hope" does not exist - according to the definition there is always space for hope. "False hope" may be an example of positive thinking.

IMHO, it is time for a D when there is no more hope.

Best wishes,
SD

This is good, now she knows she can play you for a little while longer.

Thank SD as always. That's pretty close to how I feel about it, but it's always useful to check others' views to see if I need to recalibrate.

Mel you never hold back do you? Yes it's clearly possible that she could be playing me. If so it's a heckuva acting job. I sit across the table from her, look into her eyes, and see lots of things that make me say "she seems repentent.." etc. as I said above. Classic case of words being at odds with actions. I think most have a clear idea which speaks louder.

It's confusing because it's normal for my WW to do dishonorable things while acting belligerent. For her to do dishonorable things while (convincingly) saying she wants to get it together with me is very unusual, and is confusing me.

Almost like she's a bit schizophrenic, i.e. out of the fog with respect to her words but not yet out of the fog w/r/t her actions. Does that ever happen?

She is a typical cake eating WS who says whatever she needs to say to get you off her back so she can live to play another day. Her words are meaningless as you can see with your own eyes by observing her actions. Talk is cheap.....

Who cares about her words when they are not backed up by actions. I am still trying to figure out who is more fogged out in your sitch: you or your WW?

A#2 is over since OM#2 has moved to another city 1000 miles away. He can't afford an air ticket, and I will know if WW goes to his city. So I'm pretty sure that's the end of A#2.

But so what. What's next is the question. She just said she's 'not completely sure' she can act like my wife should act. She 'wants to recommit' to me; and when pressed she recommits. Then again within 5 minutes she's back to 'wanting to recommit', then I press and again she commits. Good grief.

I can't think of any other steps; we're already seeing two very pro-marriage Christian MCs, one of whom is a big fan of marriagebuilders. WW knows I've met with a D attorney. I think the last step is to file. Am I overlooking something?

God's allowance for divorce in cases of adultery is based on a very clear provision--a hardened heart. In some cases, the heart that has been hardened is the BS, in others, it's the WS who may seem SORRY but not truly repentant. Repentance, as Mel stated very clearly, is TURNING AWAY from past sins. Not just leaving them in the past, but ACTING in some form or fashion to exemplify that the past sin has been LEFT in the past. Cake eating, fence sitting, wanting to keep the OP on a pedestal, holding on to anger for the OP or even the BS (for being "less than perfect"), even unwillingness to be forthright and honest are indicators that true repentance has not occurred.

As has been said before, God does not "want" us to divorce. In fact, the Bible actually states that God hates divorce. Scripture is also very clear that God hates an unwillingness to turn from sin. Hence the allowance for divorce in cases of adultery to protect the innocent party from further injury because the hardened heart has not softened enough to SHOW repentance.

Another thought came to mind after I posted. Weneedhelp, it is not your responsibility to "press" her to commit to your M. It is HER responsibility to commit. Commitment to a marriage is a voluntary thing, you cannot force or even coerce someone to make a voluntary decision. It would not be voluntary.

You need to decide FOR YOURSELF if she is committing. Has she DISPLAYED a commitment to your M, or is she just letting you decide whether you'll put up with her fence-sitting or not? What, in your definition, do you want your wife to "act like"? Decide for yourself based on what you see in her behavior now, if she is willing and motivated of her own free will, to provide that to your M. THEN you will know if her heart is hardened too much to move forward. You are giving her passivity too much power, my friend.

weneedhelp - I agree with your chosen "username." "WE", both you and your wife need help.

It would seem from what you've written and asked that you consider yourself a "born-again" Christian, but you think you "don't know enough to make the correct decisions." Let me first assure you that THAT attitude is the correct "first step" in gaining wisdom and knowledge.

Let me also assure you that as a born-again Christian you HAVE the indwelling Holy Spirit to help and guide you. He IS your primary counselor, teacher, and guide....you need to listen to Him, not substitute your own thoughts and desires as being "better."

Second, if you are a Christian, then BANISH non-Christians from your circle of "advisors," they WILL NOT understand something even so simple as "surrender your will to God in humble obedience to His commands. All they can offer is "worldly" advice and that's "not enough" for Christians. If you'd like Scripture references to that, they can be provided.

Now, before going further, I must ask you for your direct assessment of both yourself and your wife, since only you are "close enough" to know the whole story, the past, etc..
ARE you a "born-again" Christian? Did you ever have a saving conversion moment when you acknowledged your sinful state, confessed your sins to God, and asked Jesus to come into your life as your Lord and Savior?

Is your wife a Christian? Did SHE ever have the saving conversion experience at some point in her life?

I'm going to wait until you answer those questions before commenting further, because the answers WILL have a direct bearing on answering your other questions about divorce.

In the meantime, let me give you something else to ponder that "responds" to; "But according to our church's group MC our hearts are treacherous and we must guard against error driven by our hearts."

First, the "church group" sounds like a Sunday School or a Bible Study group of laymen. YOU have to be very careful to not "read more into" what was said than WHAT was said. Our hearts ARE deceitful and can be treacherous IF they are talking about SIN that we all have and that EMOTIONS and FEELINGS can have a "bad side." But they also have a good side. God gave us our emotions and they DO have the potential for both good and bad. It's what WE choose to do with them that becomes the difference. God has commanded us to love Him with all of our "heart, soul, and mind." Rather reflective of the Trinity, wouldn't you say? But the point is that the MIND is part of the decision-making process. You WILL feel "what you feel." It is NOT the feeling that matters so much, it is what you CHOOSE to do, beginning with surrendering your will to God's will, just as Jesus modeled for us in Gethsemene, "Nevertheless Father, not my will but thine be done."

So, Jesus' admonition to Peter to forgive a fellow Christian "seventy times seven times," if he repents each time that he has sinned against you is first restricted to fellow believers and second, tempered by the breaking of the marital covenant that was entered into when you married and God's recognition of just how serious and devastating THAT sort of betrayal is and how it can lead the emotional ovewhelming of your soul and mind to pursue sin in return. Thus, "marital unfaithfulness" is the ONE justifiable cause for divorce among Christians....to protect the faithful spouse, not to "punish" the unfaithful spouse. The command requires FORGIVENESS of the sin, but the consequence can still be divorce, IF the faithful spouse cannot handle the reality of the betrayal and/or if the unfaithful spouse is NOT truly repentant. "I'm sorry" is NOT repentance, but we can wait until later to get into that issue more.

That's enough for now. We really need to know your wife's status with God before continuing.

God bless.

CamoKnightsWife and ForeverHers: Thank you very much for your meaningful letters. I'll take some time to think, and hopefully give you a thoughtful response later today. I hope you will check back.

Maybe I can preface with the comment that we had a very frank 1-on-1 last night. shattered dreams would likely call it a 'come to Jesus' meeting. At which she committed, in her way, to me and our M and to exclude any secrets, flirting, or men I do not know. And she will turn in her company cell phone and use our own, which I can monitor. I am not convinced, but am glad to have her commitment. Will monitor.


CamoKnightsWife: Your comments about a 'hardened heart' are very much in line with what I'm thinking about right now.

WW had a stone-cold hardened heart and hateful attitude until early October. Then she changed radically and became warm, loving, remorseful and concerned. At the time I thought it was recovery. And I still think it may be the start of recovery. What an unbelievably huge change in her attitude! I suppose you would say the bible does not support D at this time without the hardened heart.

OTOH A#2 started just about the same time (mid-Oct), which is troubling to say the least. But this time her heart was 180 degrees different from during A#1.

A#1: amazingly hard heart and physical affair.
A#2: amazingly soft heart. EA or PA don't yet know.

I've been wondering the source of the softening in her heart, and how to reconcile it with A#2. It is very surprising. Were it not for her A#2 I would think we are well-along in recovery, based purely on her soft heart.

At last night's confrontation she committed to turn away from past sins. Over time her actions will speak for themselves. Re some of your points: She is not cake eating (both OM are out of the picture), and is not fence sitting. She's moved OM1 from his former pedestal to the mud where he belongs. She does keep OM2 on a small pedestal - whereas his former colleagues, friends and manager think he is untrustworthy and do not care to see him ever again unless it's to get him to settle his debts to them.

She is not holding on to anger, and (if it weren't for A#2 being so recent) I would say she is very willing to be forthright and honest. I understand it is HER responsibility to commit. Again, her actions will speak for themselves. If she has not truly committed then our M is unlikely to continue.

You say "Decide for yourself based on what you see in her behavior now, if she is willing and motivated of her own free will, to provide that to your M. THEN you will know if her heart is hardened too much to move forward." I believe that she is committed, at least for the moment, for today, for this week. But how long it will last is in question.

Thanks again if you can provide further input; much appreciated.

ForeverHers: I hadn't realized it until you put the question to me; but on reflection I suppose I have become something of a born-again Christian. That's surprising to me. On thinking about it I guess I'd say that for me it's been a process rather than a sudden event. I suppose it started when the boys were born. About that time I started to feel church much more deeply, and sometimes feel slightly overwhelmed in church, even crying a bit from time to time. The process continued until this year when WW's A and the marriagebuilders community really drove the message home. The closest thing to a 'see the light' moment was soon after I started reading marriagebuilders, overflowing with 100 emotions, reading Gramn's thread, and seeing how full of compassion people here are.

Where am I now? A 100% believer in the principles of the Christian faith, and the vital role they play in guiding our lives. And I know that both my wife and I need help, and that religion is the place to turn.

I want to listen to the Holy Spirit, and I suppose I am committed to listening to him. I don't think I've made a conscious effort to banish non-Christians from my circle, but on the other hand I can think of only one who isn't a Christian. And he conducts his life in such a way as to make me think he's a closet Christian. (small digression; this week I had a visit from an old college friend; have hardly seem him for 25 years. Like me, he has changed radically. He's become a firm Christian, via the Alcoholics Anonymous path. What a change in our conversational topics from what we used to talk about 25 years ago!)

My WW has been a Christian since college. We sometimes joke that we wouldn't have liked each other had we met in college because so completely different. She Christian, me anything but. Today - in most respects - she carries herself as a Christian. I would say that at this time I spend more time thinking about what God wants than she does. We have both acknowledged our sinful state, confessed our sins, and asked Jesus to come into our lives. As you see, we fail him regularly.

You are correct, the church group is a MC lay group. We begin with a prayer, often for humility and for God's help in listening to and understanding each other. Perhaps six couples come on a typical night. One other couple seems to be grappling with infidelity, while the others have other types of marital problems.

You said "It is NOT the feeling that matters so much, it is what you CHOOSE to do, beginning with surrendering your will to God's will..." That is a good description of where I am right now. I think WW would say the same. She considered D in September, but says she decided for the M; probably for the kids' sake. That is probably close to saying she purposed at the time to surrender her will to God's will. Again, as you see we fail him with distressing frequency. We would both benefit from framing our talks in that way to remind ourselves what we are called to do.

You say [/quote]
"I'm sorry" is NOT repentance...[/quote]
That is very descriptive of where we are. Softened heart, remorse, "I'm sorry", committing to walk the right path... but is it real? How can I know? What am I asked to do during the period that I don't know?

"I'm sorry" is NOT repentance...[/quote]
That is very descriptive of where we are. Softened heart, remorse, "I'm sorry", committing to walk the right path... but is it real? How can I know? [/quote]

By her ACTIONS.

Nonsense! Bigotry is alive and well, I see. I believe in God, but these words smack of arrogance and intolerance.

UVA, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I spoke to weneedhelp as one Christian to another, who HAS surrendered his life to Christ. If you are offended by my opinion that a Christian should seek advice from God, and Christian counselors, rather than unbelievers and "worldly" counselors, then I apologize to you and ask your forgiveness for my faux pau. I assume you consider yourself a Christian also, but if that assumption is incorrect, please advise of my error in that assumption.

"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the LORD and on his law he meditates day and night." (Psalm 1:1-2 NIV)

"Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. "Let us break their chains, " they say, "and throw off their fetters." The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the LORD scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:

He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.
Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry adn you will be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him." (Psalm 2 NIV)

"This is love for God: to obey his commands." (1John 5:3 NIV)

"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands." (2John 6a NIV)

So tell me brother UVA, should a Christian "walk in the counsel of the unsaved or in the counsel of God? If it is the counsel of God, wherein is my "counsel" to weneedhelp "nonsense" and how is it bigoted, arrogant, and intolerant, based as it is upon Scripture and God's revealed will to us?

"I'm sorry" is a start, but it becomes "heartfelt" when there is repentance for sin.

How can you know? You can't, not in the sense of being a "mindreader." That is why James told us that anyone can "claim" to be a Christian, but a "genuine" Christian will be "known" because of what they "do." That "doing" is to humbly obey the commands of God, and one of those commands is to REPENT of sin that is offensive to God. "Repent" means to "leave that life of sin" and to "turn 180 degrees away from that sin" and follow God. So you will "know" by observing her actions and hearing her words over TIME.

What you are "asked to do during the period that I don't know" is to trust in God and to obey His commands for you. To learn and to grow as a husband according to God's commands for the role of husband. To stand ready as the spiritual leader in your home. To learn, hopefully together, what it means to have God as the center of your marriage and a part of your Covenant.

You are both at the beginning of a wonderful journey. I know you can't see the end or where the journey will lead, or even that it CAN be wonderful journey when all you seem to feel right now is pain, anguish, and uncertainty. But that is part of the wonder of growing together. It may seem like your faith is not "big enough" right now, but don't worry, it can be so small that it is no bigger than a mustard seed, yet it will be enough BECAUSE it is the Holy Spirit in you and God's promise in Philippians 4:13 that you CAN do ALL things THROUGH him (Christ) who give you strength. God provides both the command, and the resources necessary to do what has been commanded. Humble obedience is all that it takes.

God bless.

Although I do believe Jesus Christ is God I am not a “Christian” in the classical sense of the word. I do not accept the assumption that only “Christians” can be wise or have wisdom to impart. It is this assumption that seems to me to smack of arrogance.

The idea that the Dalai Lama is not a wise person or that Gandhi was not wise because he was not a Christian robs the concept “wise” of any true meaning.

It is true that as a Christian, WNH should definitely take a close look at what his faith or people from his faith say about his situation. It does not follow from this, however, that he should exclusively listen to Christian because only Christians can have wisdom. This last claim is clearly false. No one group has a monopoly on God, Truth, and Wisdom.

Not all Christians are wise, and not only Christians are wise!

FH,

I have read many of your posts and think that you are great. I just have a problem with the assumption discussed above.