It wasn't much of an ultimatum. It reminds me of a T.S. Eliot poem:

This is the way the world ends.
This is the way the world ends.
This is the way the world ends.
Not with a bang but a whimper.

I simply cannot cope anymore.

After a weekend in which I switched off the TV set when he had the game on and said "I feel neglected", Tom got very offended. He screamed "B...s.." at me and yelled "shut up" at our 6 year old who then got in my lap and bawled.

On Monday, I said that I want 15 hours per week of his time in UDA (undivided attention). He asked why I get to make the rules, and I said that this is what I am willing to do to avoid filing for divorce tomorrow.

This is what I established:
1. We build hours for one week.
2. At the end of the week, that is our starting point (example: 10 hours).
3. Going forward, we need to make an average of 15 hours after this first week.
4. If we don't keep a 15 hour average, then I will ask for a one week separation. We can then repeat a one week build up and a rolling forward average.
5. If he won't agree to a one week separation, I will file for legal separation to get him out of the house.

This is pathetic, and I know it. It forces us to spend time together or separate.

He has started objecting of course starting with saying we need to focus on making the time together enjoyable. My response was to say that I will do my level best to make the time enjoyable.

If there is anyone who has any suggestions for how this might work, I would appreciate it.

Last year, I said that we need to make 15 hours every week or I will file. The time was miserable and he did things like argue, "What if the maximum time I can enjoy being with you is 14.5 hours?" This year, I focused on the POJA, and he is still trying to use it as leverage for win-lose agreements.

This is basically a last stand. What is different from last year is that I have built in more flexibility -- a rolling average of 15 hours per week instead of 15 hours per week no matter what and the consequence being a one week separation rather than immediately filing for divorce or legal separation. We go into the Christmas season with needing to discuss through a lot -- Christmas presents for the kids, what to do over the kid's Christmas break, etc. -- it's as good a time as any to give an ultimatum. I think it's the only way to avoid an emotional divorce, which is what we have had all our marriage, right from the start. I have no idea why he married me because he treated me terribly from the beginning and didn't want to spend time with me. I suppose my way of coping was to have children so I could focus on them.

Any comments, suggestions, opinions appreciated. My health seems to be deteriorating. This may be more of an exit strategy of mine than a genuine attempt to create a good marriage. I am open to being in a caring relationship. I'm just losing hope.

Cherished

Say one of your children didn't care for spinach. You both had discussed the benefits of spinach. While this child was playing in his room, you came in, interrupted a game in which he was involved and loved, and demanded that he spend at least 15 hours a week eating spinach and discussing the benefits of spinach. Now how do you think that child would act?

Instead of demands which will always lead to resistance, why not make the spinach fun. Make new recipes, find alternative sources of good health with alternatives that he would find more palatible, etc.

He's not interested because it's not interesting. Since he's either unable or uninterested in making the effort, you need to be the one to make whatever he would be doing with you more fun than the ballgame or something to look forward to after the game. These demands are going to lead to that wimper at the end of your marriage.

As I tell my 19 year old daughter, don't look for a boy that you would want to be a part of his life instead make your life so interesting that a boy would want to be involved your life.

"After a weekend in which I switched off the TV set when he had the game on and said "I feel neglected", Tom got very offended. He screamed "B...s.." at me and yelled "shut up" at our 6 year old who then got in my lap and bawled.

On Monday, I said that I want 15 hours per week of his time in UDA (undivided attention). He asked why I get to make the rules, and I said that this is what I am willing to do to avoid filing for divorce tomorrow."

Walking in and turning off the t.v. was a pretty [email]cr@ppy[/email] thing to do. I'm not surprised that he greeted this action with anger. How did you expect him to act?

After this you make demands of his time and threaten divorce or separation if he doesn't capitulate in a fashion that you deem acceptable.

Why would this man want to spend time with you? I know that I wouldn't if you treated me is such a fashion.

I can tell that you are really angry with H. Acting in such a fashion probably won't endear you to him, but perhaps that isn't your motivation. If you want to separate do so. If you want to divorce then do that. Whatever you do, there is no reason to act in such anger. Don't do things to your H that you wouldn't do to your dearest fried. Would you turn off a show your best friend was watching and make demands on her time? Probably not. Why would you think it is o.k. to do that to H?


If you want H to spend time with you he will be more likely to do so if he thinks he will be spending time with a cheerful and loving wife. If he thinks he is going to have to spend it with and angry and controlling wife he will probably try to duck and run. I don't like being around angry people. Do you?

-------------

I've read this over and man it sounds a lot harsher that I really intended, but I don't know how to fix it.

Look, I had problems with getting my W's attention too, especially after the kids came along. When I felt neglected I reacted with anger, or neglect of my own. All this did was to make my W want to spend less time with me.

To get my wife interested in spending time with me I had to adjust many things. I dropped the anger. I made plans to do things that I knew that she enjoyed. I took her places that interested her. I listened to her when she spoke. I quit giving her my advice when she had an issue with something. I learned that she didn't want advice she wanted to be heard. She wanted me to show her that I was interested in what she had to say. In the end, I became fun again. I began to laugh again. I treated her with kindness and respect again. The result was that she wanted to be around me again.

You have been here longer than I have so I know that you have been given tons of advice over the years. More from me probably won't help. But I will say than when spending time with you becomes enjoyable for H he will want to spend the time. He will eagerly prusue you.

Your perspective does help.

Tom has said that I need to make sure our time together is enjoyable. It's past that for me. This is Plan A that went on longer than I could manage. There is a lot of anger and bitterness.

Cherished

Cherished;

I listened to the Harley Radio show over the internet a few weeks ago and he was discussing the "15 hour" requirement. He stated that his research demonstrated that couples need to spend 15 hours alone together...period. He said it did not matter at all what they choose to do over those 15 hours. Fun was not part of the equation. Togetherness is.

Therefore, just sitting and reading on the same couch... Laying and watch T.V. together (though I think this is too escapist but if you cuddle while you do it then O.K.). Playing a board game. Talking. Cleaning the kitchen or cleaning out a closet. Raking leaves. Going for walks alone even if in complete silence.

What apparently would not count. Family meals, family vacations (unless they include some separate time), etc.

Mr. Wondering

I don't think Tom can pass of the responsibility of making time together fun on to you. Obviously, he has a part to play too.

The anger and bitterness aren't going to help you. . . kind of like taking poison and waiting for some else to die.

I'm sorry cherished. I'm beginning to remember more about your situation. You sound so very tired. Maybe it is time for you to shake the jar a little.

You know, maybe Tom just isn't a very pleasant fellow. It sure doesn't seem that he plays fair.

Do something fun with your kids this weekend. Let Tom be jealous of the laughter that you share with the kids.

Blessing,

CN

Tom has an element of charm to him. Many people have told me "He's the nicest guy." They don't hear our 4 year old say that he's mean.

I dread his coming home tonight. I can just hear how impractical the 15 hours is and how I have drawn a line in the sand.

I have drawn a line in the sand, and he resents it. The jar is being shaken because I am falling apart. I cannot take it anymore.

I am responsible for what my children see, and they have seen a lot that is ugly. My daughter today told me that she decided on Sunday that she would never marry.

Cherished

Honestly, the 'one week seperation' sounds just silly to me.

And I have to agree with a previous poster- this H of yours isn't a pleasant person.

You've given this ultimatum once and it didnt work. You didnt follow through. He may see this as more game playing and guilt trippin'-- I think both of you need to decide if you are in or are you out.

It sounds like your kids are suffering and I just could not abide by that.

I can't abide by it either.

He's on his way home now, and I feel sick to my stomach. I'm stuffed from overeating -- stuffed to sedation. What a horrible way to live. Food -- the AD of choice. All I got all day was how 15 hours per week is my line in the sand, he has to support a family so he doesn't have time, the time has to be enjoyable and we shouldn't focus on amount of time...

Cherished

I'm an overeater, I completely sympathize. I medicate myself with food when feeling distressed. Lately its been due to loneliness- hubby was working two full time jobs and putting in 90 hours a week. With the new baby, I've been feeling like a single mom sometimes. Luckily, he listened to what I had to say when he asked me why I was medicating with food again (I confessed to him because I really wanted his help). This week he quit the second full time job and is taking one with just 25 hours a week. Im thrilled. Now if we could all get over being sick we'd have some fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok- what does he mean by enjoyable? What does HE want to do? How many hours a week does he work?

I have to ask this:
Has your FWH done the absolute minimum required of him and done it begrudgingly?

My IC has said, "He'll do the minimum to appease you" and "The concept of care doesn't make sense to him."

I offered to work to make the time as enjoyable as possible, and he said he'd move out. Now he's back home.

Cherished

So the more u do, the less he does? Is that a close assessment? I have experience with that kind of character.

L.

I've been following your threads for the last year. Your situation is so similar to mine. I can totally relate to how tired you are of trying to make your marriage work and how much you don't want a divorce. My husband will still talk with Dr. Harley at least but then he doesn't do anything that Dr. Harley sais. What are your needs? Is your husband meeting any of them even a little? What are his needs? Are you meeting any of his just a little? We have been getting 15 hours in together for the last year but at least half of the time has been miserable for one or both of us and we aren't any closer to having a good marriage. In fact we are further away. Getting the 15 hours in was no easy task either. My husband is a workaholick dairy farmer. He typically works over 100 hours per week and we have 9 children between us. Before we ever started the program I kept a running tab of how many hours we had spent together on the bathroom sink. When he hit 15 hours I would have sex with him. I'm not suggesting this necessarilly because I have now developed an aversion to sex, but in the mean time the habits were formed where we are able to get 15 hours in now pretty consistantly. We just havn't figured out how to make them enjoyable for both of us. I say this to make the point that spending enough time together is important but making the time enjoyable for both of you is improtant too.

Rb123,
I'm very uncertain it is worth trying to spend 15 hours together per week if Tom thinks that I am just setting us up for failure when we don't make the time. It's sobering to read that getting in 15 hours hasn't helped build your marriage. I told Tom that I don't need to be convinced that he can make it not work.

We're at 13.25 hours for the week. I have told him that the 15 hours has nothing to do with him. I'm just at the end of coping. It's hard to describe but first I collapsed emotionally (I was hysterical when the affair came out), then I started to collapse physically (heart pounding, shaking hands), and now I am collapsing spiritually. I am simply giving out. The 15 hours per week is what would give me the assurance that he does want to make our time together a priority, but if you have read my emails back and forth to Harley, he thinks that Tom will simply try to sabotage this approach. Well, if he does, I know it's time to separate. Tonight, I told him that I started tracking hours again in October. Thanksgiving week was a week he was home and was on vacation for part of the time. Total of our time together -- 3 hours. Without a commitment to spend time together, I see a drift back to emotional divorce. It didn't take too many reponses on GQII for me to realize I simply don't want that life. When I tolerated being ignored before, it was in the hope that he would eventually turn back to his family. This time, if I tolerated it, it would be to gain financial benefit only.

We had a nice morning going Christmas shopping and buying a new jacket for my husband. A start. Nothing passionate, but at least no passionate hatred.
Cherished

Chersihed:

It is rare that I am moved to NOT post something on a particular thread. I have to be honest with you here....reading your posts and thoughts about this leaves me always so profoundly sad. If I get "sad" just reading your thoughts, I cannot imagine what you "feel" like in the flesh going through with all of this.

Me telling you to "get real" or "accept" the reality of your situation will NOT help you. I have tried and done that a thousands time over with you. You have to "accept" this in your own way, and untill you do this, you will struggle mightily. I don't honestly have any realistic hope that your WH will "change".

Harley was 100% correct when he said your WH will find a way to "sabotage" this. Trust me, I don't find it easy to say this to you...I feel like I am kicking a defenselss child.....Please realize that I only hope and want the best for you.

I understand and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of 15 hours and time "together", but I liken this in your situation to someone with severe lung cancer with brain metastisis JUST NOW quitting smoking.

I don't want to stop posting to you, because when I do that, you can be sure that I have given up on you, and I don't want to ever do that.

I pray for your personal recovery. I really do.

Lem

LM --
There's a line from a book called "He's just not that interested in you" that really struck home with me. It was something like -- "Not all the therapy in the world can help some. Sometimes boredom just has to set in."

Please do pray for my recovery and our children's. I am at the point where I just cannot cope. I've gained weight, I am having symptoms of physical stress like pounding heart, and I am just plain bored of the same old same old. December 17th marks the 4th anniversary of his breaking my arm. Four years of pure h...

Please keep posting. I need to keep hearing.

I do still have hope, but I also recognize that I cannot continue to cope. If we cannot make 15 hours per week that is enjoyable, I need to separate so that I have the physical capability to take care of the children. It comes down to that. I guess I'll always have hope, but I won't always have the physical stamina to care for children who need me.

Cherished

I know you have said that you want to be cherished by your husband and that would make you feel loved. I told Dr. Harley that I just want to be liked by my husband. Our relationship has deteriorated to where neither one of us likes the other one very much. We are in the same boat. We have been the ones doing all the work till we are exhausted and it hasn't been very effective anyways. Here are some of my stratedies to not fall apart physically. Believe me Iv'e been at the hysterical phase too. I got a pedomitor to wear every day. In my state of depression I was just sitting around in fact I was very tempted to go back to bed after I got my youngest off to school. Actually I did a couple of times but I knew that was very unhealthy. The pedomitor served as a remindor of how active I was being and got me on my feet more. I got help loosing weight. My husband was not gung how on this one but I did get him to agree to let me do it. The woman he had an affair with was about 200 pounds. In fact the first time we made love after her he comented that I must have lost weight. I hadn't. He has a very physical job and consumes 4 times what I can consume and hates any kind of diet food. To me getting help ment getting a supportive ear to talk to and encourage me. In fact support and encouragement are what are going to keep you going. Does your church have a ladies Bible study? If your church doesn't then do you have a friend you could join? For me going to a ladies Bible study is way more about the ladies then study or Bible. That may sound bad but I need the relationships with other ladies.

Our assignment from Dr. Harley for this week was for me not to loose my temper and for my husband to show more care for me. I havn't lost my temper. Although my husband hates for me to disagree with him about anything or make any waves and I did strongly disagree. The disagreement was about my snow mobile. He bought me a snowmobile and helmet for my birthday several years ago. His kids trashed my helmet and have damaged the snowmobile with no consiquenses. I can't ride it without him or one of the older boys starting it for me and there was one winter when I never got to even ride it. It became known as the snowmobile instead of R's snowmobile. The last straw came when I caught them repeatedly riding without a helmet. I took the key and it has been put up for a year and a half now. We had our first good snow and my husband asked if I wanted to get it out this year. I said ok if we could solve the past problems. He suggested that we should just sell it. Another impass leaving both of us with a bad taste in our mouth for the other. Your husband strongly resents your having a different appinion than him too. Dr. Harley said he would work with my husband on learning that having differences is ok and good. I'm sure we can both use some coaching on how to express our differences in a way that is not found to be so offensive.

Cherished: If you have a moment, could you briefly bring me up to speed on your situation?

Is your H still seeing an OW?

When did the A end, if it did?

What has HE said that HE wants?
Mulan

My brief story:

Married May 1, 1993.
Children 3/94, 5/96, 5/99, 2/01.

I was committed to marriage no matter what. He was awful from our wedding day on, and I excused the treatment variously as newlywed adjustment, new parent adjustment, his 5 job losses in two years, his exhaustion from the MBA program, etc. I just plowed ahead. I caught Dr. Phil last week, and he said, "Sometimes, life gives you clues." I had plenty of clues.

1/3/98, he got upset with me after my parents had spent Christmas with us, and he pressed down on my forehead. It scared me to death. I thought he was going to bash in my brains. In fact, now almost 8 years later, I still have lumps from that.

I made a resolution. He said I was too demanding and too controlling. I would do neither and support him as best I could. My question was: "Can I tolerate this?"

No time with the kids or me? Can tolerate.
No bathtub when we had a baby and a toddler? Can tolerate.
Going to visit his relatives 8 times in one spring? Can tolerate?

Walking pneumonia? Can't tolerate.
I quit work to stay home.

5/3/01 Sophia propositioned Tom and Tom told me.
6/01 I demanded he stop seeing her.
9/11/01 First kiss
9/24/01 I emailed Harley's radio show about what I knew.
10/1/01 Harley answered my email on the air by saying Tom was having an affair and I should call the husband. I played the tape of the show. Tom was furious and said he wouldn't see Sophia if I didn't call her husband
10/29/01 Tom admitted to having lunch with her on 10/24. I threatened to call the husband, and he said he couldn't confide im me if I did.
11/6/01 I entered therapy.
12/5/01 I had a hysterectomy with repair to bladder, rectum and small intestine due to childbirth (prolapse). In hospital 5 days.
12/17/01 Tom said he was concerned Sophia might call him to wish him a merry Christmas. I threatened to call her, and he punched me and broke my arm. My IC met with us that day and referred him to an anger management group which he attended even though he had to drop church choir.
12/28/01 First arm surgery. Ulna broken in 7 pieces. Put in a cast up past my elbow.
2/25/02 Second surgery. Pins removed that secured ulna against radius. Must wear splint up past my my elbow all the time except in the bath when I should move my wrist and elbow. Elbow takes a few days to be OK. Wrist can turn about 5 degrees.
4/3/02 Can remove splint and start to use arm during the day. Went to physical therapy 7 times in April and early May. Went from being able to turn my wrist about 30 degrees to being able to turn it to full upright position.
4/21/02 Tom said that there was an office retirement party at his old department that he'd like to attend. I asked if Sophia would be there. He said yes. I asked if he would talk to her. He said yes because people knew they were friends.
4/22/02 I called Harley's radio show and he said call husband. I did.
5/4/02 Husband told me they had been having an affair.
Sophia quit work.
12/9/02 Third surgery for arm. In splint for two months
4/03 Call from Sophia to Tom. Tom tells me about it in August.
12/03 Sophia leaves voice message. Tom tells me immediately. No indication of further contact.

First marriage counselor (5/01 - 1/02) said I was hysterical and controlling. I returned to original IC. Original IC took us in MC 9/03-12/03. She said concept of care doesn't make sense to Tom and we should separate. Instead, I dropped her and took up Harley's offer for MC. By that time, I was well-know to listeners of Joyce's radio show. I offered to Tom that we go to MB program but there was no point continuing MC with the original IC. He said he was willing to do the program and talk with Harley on the phone but didn't want to attend the MBW 2/04.

Tom has dragged his feet in Harley's program. He balked at the POJA and thought the amount of time was arbitrary. He started therapy 10/04. We had MC with this counselor 1/05-5/05. This IC said "Policy of Joint Agreement is la la land" and thought I was infantalizing Tom. I ended MC. Tom said he would continue IC with the guy, and I said move out. He decided to drop IC. We went back to Harley's program.

Last week, I said I can't cope anymore. This isn't about Tom. It's about me. Either he is willing to spend 15 hours a week with me and try to make it enjoyable, or he isn't in which case I want a separation.

We got to 15.5 hours but he thinks, "If you focus on the hours, you are setting us up for failure." Harley has said the same thing as the original IC, that the concept of care doesn't make sense to him. At this point, I've taken up so much of Harley's time on emails in the private forum that it is downright embarassing. Harley has said that marriages end when there is no hope. Well, I'll ALWAYS have hope. The same reason why bishops tolerated priests abusing children is that hope that people can change, and I have it. The problem I have is I cannot cope. And it's not just me. On Friday, Tom got upset and left the house. Our 11 year old daughter called and asked that he not come home because she didn't want to hear us fighting.

Cherished

Cherished.

Its time to end this.