***The same reason why bishops tolerated priests abusing children is that hope that people can change, and I have it.***

Dear gods, Cherished -- if you believe this, you have far deeper troubles than anyone here could ever help you with.

No, Cherished, the bishops tolerated it for the same reason that you tolerate your nightmare of a life. They tolerated it because they chose to close their eyes to the truth so they would not have to take responsibility. They KNEW those priests would never change, just like YOU know your H will never change.

Your H is a man who has never been interested in being married. He just wants to have a wife. Not the same thing.

But unfortunately, I think that sort of thing is what you come here to get -- "support" on how rotten he is and how good you are.

It is not admirable or good to stay and stay and stay in a miserable, violent, destructive, abusive situation because you are hoping he will change. You are miserable and your children are miserable. They may very well turn against YOU as they get older.

Q: Why would your children turn against YOU when your H is the bad guy?

A: Because they already know he's the bad guy. They don't expect him to do anything for them. But the good guy (you) is supposed to protect them and you refuse to do that. That's what they will remember.

If you do not go out and find some help and support in your real world -- not just on-line -- you may very well find yourself without even your children for company. They will not admire you or feel sorry for you because your H is so bad; they will remember only that YOU did NOTHING to get out of this horrible life and protect them and give them some sort of chance at peace and normality.

If you do care about yourself and your children, please get up from the computer right now, pick up the phone book, and look up the number of the nearest women's shelter. You don't necessarily have to go there; just ask them who you should call and what you should do to get yourself and your children out of this rotten, abusive and dangerous situation.

Don't spend any more time telling us how awful your H is and listing all of his sins. Come back and tell us what YOU ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT LEAVING HIM AND BUILDING A LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN.

I will watch for your post today.
Mulan

AMEN MULAN!

Mulan,
I thought I was showing commitment to marriage when in fact I was enabling incredibly selfish and cruel behavior being witnessed by children. That's why I empathize with those bishops. Their choices, while I sincerely believe they were well-intentioned, were wrong and had tragic results. My choices, also well-intentioned, were wrong.

Now what? That's why I gave an ultimatum. I will always hold out hope but will no longer cope or force our children to cope.

Cherished

An ultimatum is worthless when there is nothing to back it up.

You did not give your husband an ultimatum at all.

You just demanded something that he is clearly not willing or able to give you.

He refused.

Now what?

Exactly. You are still right where you were with no intention of doing anything about it except blame your husband some more. That's why it was not an ultimatum.

Now YOU have to give YOURSELF not an ultimatum, but a mission -- a mission to get out of a dead and destructive relationship and somehow stand on your own two feet.

You will be doing this to protect yourself and protect your children.

H has made it clear that he is not going to do either one.

That leaves you.

Yes, your husband *should* be there for you with love and support, but your husband has made it clear from day one that he has no intention of doing this.

Yes, your employer *should* pay you for the work you do -- but what if you find yourself working for someone who never pays you a dime?

Do you just go on working and hoping year after year that if you work hard enough *he* will decide you are worth paying, and live on nothing in the meantime?

Or will you decide for yourself that YOU are worth paying and go find a better job where you ARE fairly paid for your work?

So far, you have turned away from this responsibility. I can sympathize with the difficult situation you are in with no job and four young children, but so far all you have done is blame your husband and hope things will magically change. Then, when things don't change, you blame your husband some more and go back to wishing and hoping for more magic changes that cannot and will not ever happen.

So far, you have not taken one step *on your own* to make things better.

What could you do to make your family's life better *yourself* -- something that *does not* involve your husband in any way?

Mulan

Mulan,

I am in a better position than may appear on the surface. I was the primary breadwinner in our family until I quit work 6 years ago, I have an MBA, and my parents are willing and able to provide support to get me out of this situation. Tom would have to provide about 1/2 of his income to us.

What I have done is say that we will only live together if I am worth the effort of 15 hours per week. That amount of time is measurable. We spent 15.5 hours last week. Now, we've gone round and round on Harley's program. I have threatened separation before. There's a big step. What if we only make 14.5 hours? What I have done now is say that the first week is buildup. We add together the first and second week to give our starting point for a weekly average and then from then on out we need to maintain a 15 hour average or I request a one week separation. If he won't leave, then I'll file.

I've also thought of his deciding to not have the number of hours for a time that might be convenient for him, such as when he wants to spend New Years with his family or go on a golf trip. That's why I said that the first separation is one week, the second is two weeks, and so on.

It's childish. Someone said it's silly. Yes, it's silly. It forces a decision.

This is why it is an ultimatum. I force a decision on his part: is he willing to put forth the effort to spend time with me, week in and week out, or is he not?

On Friday night, he got upset with me and left and went to the mall. Our 11 year old called him on his cell phone and asked him to stay away for the night. Sad, very sad.

Tom has said that I am the one who needs to change. I agree. I see that now. He's been content with a marriage of emotional divorce. He saw the affair as a mistake that came out of the blue. I saw it as the tip of the iceburg, and the iceburg was neglect. Now I force a decision. I would rather be separated than be in a marriage of emotioanl divorce.

Cherished

***I am in a better position than may appear on the surface. I was the primary breadwinner in our family until I quit work 6 years ago, I have an MBA, and my parents are willing and able to provide support to get me out of this situation.***

Girl, you have far more going for you than I do -- or than a lot of women do. I have no college degree and no parents. You DO have a way of supporting yourself and your children and you DO have family who is willing to help you.

That makes it all the worse that you will not use these resources to improve your own and your children's lives.

***Tom would have to provide about 1/2 of his income to us.***

And that, too.

***What I have done is say that we will only live together if I am worth the effort of 15 hours per week. That amount of time is measurable. We spent 15.5 hours last week. Now, we've gone round and round on Harley's program. I have threatened separation before. There's a big step. What if we only make 14.5 hours? What I have done now is say that the first week is buildup. We add together the first and second week to give our starting point for a weekly average and then from then on out we need to maintain a 15 hour average or I request a one week separation. If he won't leave, then I'll file.

I've also thought of his deciding to not have the number of hours for a time that might be convenient for him, such as when he wants to spend New Years with his family or go on a golf trip. That's why I said that the first separation is one week, the second is two weeks, and so on.

It's childish. Someone said it's silly. Yes, it's silly. It forces a decision.***

Yes, it is. It's the same old blah blah blah. He said no. He does not want to do this. Why aren't you listening?

***This is why it is an ultimatum. I force a decision on his part: is he willing to put forth the effort to spend time with me, week in and week out, or is he not?

NO

HE IS NOT WILLING TO DO THIS

HIS DECISION WAS NO. HE IS NOT WILLING TO PUT FORTH THE EFFORT TO SPEND TIME WITH YOU. HE MADE HIS DECISION AND SHOWED YOU WHAT IT WAS. WHAT WILL YOU DO NOW? KEEP PRESSURING HIM TO "MAKE A DECISION" UNTIL HE MAKES THE DECISION *YOU* WANT HIM TO MAKE? HE IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT. HE MADE HIS DECISION BUT YOU ARE IGNORING IT.

WHY?

***On Friday night, he got upset with me and left and went to the mall. Our 11 year old called him on his cell phone and asked him to stay away for the night. Sad, very sad.***

Eventually, their resentment and anger could turn to you if you do not do something to get your children out of an emotionally and physically abusive relationship.

***Tom has said that I am the one who needs to change. I agree. I see that now. He's been content with a marriage of emotional divorce. He saw the affair as a mistake that came out of the blue. I saw it as the tip of the iceburg, and the iceburg was neglect.***

***Now I force a decision. I would rather be separated than be in a marriage of emotioanl divorce.***

Again, Cherished -- he DID make the decision. His decision was no, he does NOT want to spend 15 hours a week with you and he does NOT think your marriage is worth it.

What does he have to do -- take out a billboard?

You got the answer to your "ultimatum" but you are refusing to hear it or see it -- and refusing to do anything in response except think you can magically change the outcome of a decision he has already made if you just ignore it long enough.

He made his decision. He said no. What will you do now?

You have the resources. When will you take the steps?

If nothing else, Cherished, you can think of your establishing a separate household as Plan B. It *might* change your husband's thinking after several months, but you cannot do this in hopes of "waking him up" and waiting every day for him to "wake up."

You have to do this as a responsible parent who is protecting her children.

They're waiting.
Mulan

Mulan,

It is pathetic, and I know it. One more chance and one more chance and on and on. He's made it clear I'm not worth the effort.

This is a way to go towards separation but still allow for him to change his mind and put forth the effort.

As a responsible parent, I cannot allow this to continue. Like the bishops whose decisions were so obviously wrong when broadcast to the world, I know I would have very little sympathy if I outlined what I have really gone through. It's SO obvious -- to an outsider.

I have faith in God. I have faith in Tom. I think he is sincere. I have pressured him to spend time with me. I have taken pressure off him, and he's ended up in front of the TV watching a football game.

The hurt of neglect in the end was worse than the trauma of infidelity or abuse. I realize now that I had a choice between dignity and my marriage, and I chose my marriage -- and lost both.

The 15 hours is a way for me to put the decision in his lap with clear choices for him to make. I've made my choice. I will always be hopeful and always be open to him. The clock ticks. Weeks will pass. It won't be long before it is evident that he is willing to put in the time to be with me or is willing to take time to argue about how it's not practical. I've made my choice, I've made my choice clear to him -- either work on a marriage of intimacy or we separate -- and now it is up to him. If he tests my seriousness, he will find that I am asking for a separation of one week and I will file if he doesn't respect that I am very serious about this.

I have a lot of guilt, and I should, about what I have allowed my children to be exposed to. Our daughter who is six witnessed Tom spanking me and yelling "G... d... it." She was 2 1/2. That may be her first memory.

Cherished

Cherished, I can see the boundry line you have drawn. I think it is good that you build in the part about time that is not enjoyable only counting for half. You will have to be careful to consider what is enjoyable to both of you. You might consider adding a boundry that he has to stay away for a certain length of time when he looses his temper in any way. You need to make sure that you are building good habits together for the time to be enjoyable for both of you rather that just building a habit of being together regardless of how enjoyable the time is. The fact that you made it for 15.5 hours your first week shows that he is willing to make a little effort but the past can't be forgotten in one week and good habits are a long way away.

rb123,

I ended up dropping my evaluation of time as whether it was enjoyable or not, and I told him that I am confident he can make the time miserable if he wants.

The boundary is a rolling average of 15 hours of time alone together. If I'm not worth 15 hours of time, then I want a separation for one week.

This GQII board really helped me with evaluating emotional divorce. I simply cannot tolerate it, so I need to do something about being in a marriage of emotional divorce. It changes, or he moves out. Period. That's the boundary. 15 hours per week is a way to build to emotional intimacy.

Cherished

Cherished,

I guess in the next few weeks you will get my point, but I still want to caution you about settling for too little. I understand your intense desire to make your marriage work.

rb123,
He does stay away when he gets upset. On Friday, he came home and got upset with me and left. Our 11 year old daughter called him on his cell phone and asked him to stay away for the night. He did come home that night. It must have hurt him terribly that she would want him gone.

Cherished

***The boundary is a rolling average of 15 hours of time alone together. If I'm not worth 15 hours of time, then I want a separation for one week.***

He has already said and shown that he is not interested in doing this.

So, when does the separation start?

And how on earth are you going to "separate" for one week?"

Are you going to move out for a week???

If you do, that will be nothing but a vacation for him. He knows that you'll be back and in the meantime, he's free to do as he pleases for a week. I think this is a HUGE mistake.

Bottom line, Cherished, your threats and ultimatums are worthless because you NEVER follow through on them and your husband knows this. When he says "NO," all you do is sit back, regroup, and start pressuring him again for exactly the same thing.

There are never any consequences for *him,* except for further pressuring, begging and pleading from you.

Nothing
Ever
Happens.

He knows you aren't about to move out.

He knows you will never follow through on your threats.

That's why nothing ever changes.

I'll believe you are serious about changing your life and REALLY saving your marriage when you use that MBA to get a job, and then move yourself and your kids to your parents' home while looking for new place to live and doing a pitch-dark Plan B on your WH.

THAT might actually accomplish what you want.
Mulan

Mulan,
I am serious about following through on my threats because my health is starting to collapse. It's sad that I let this go on this long, but I have. I gained 35 pounds and now weigh 190. I can't even find a bathing suit to wear. I'm just at the edge of wearing women's sizes, and I refuse. Instead, I am splitting size 18 pants -- even blue jeans. I cancelled my annual doctor's appointment because I am just embarassed to go in there and get on the scale.

In addition, I have had symptoms of anxiety attacks -- like a pounding heart and the sensation of shortness of breath. I need to be alive to care for my children.

That's why something must change.

What I told him is that HE moves out for a week, he doesn't have contact with me or the children, and then he can come back and try again to have 15 hours alone together. Would any court allow this? No. We're in a no fault divorce state. If he doesn't honor my wishes that he leave us alone for a week, then I will file for legal separation.

Yes, I have not followed through on my threats. He has reason to believe that I won't this time.

My back is up against the wall. It's not that I think I'm right. It's not that I have the emotional fortitude to stick with this approach. It's that my health is falling apart and I need to do something about it before I have real problems, like diabetes or chronic back pain or knee pain from so much weight going on my joints. Also, our kids have seen enough. Our 6 year old is to get a neuropsychologial evaluation. Do I bring along the pictures she drew of Dad angry? This is all so sick that I feel like those bishops must have felt when the sex abuse allegations hit the papers.

My husband has lurked on MB before. I hope he's lurking now. If he doesn't believe me, he'll see when I say that we didn't make 15 hours and I want him gone for a week. We'll see if he doesn't move out that I'll be at the law offices of the lawyer I have selected to represent me. The law simply doesn't care about why people divorce. It's a mill. They want money and they want to file. And I will file. It can seem unreasonable to everyone on earth except me that I place a condition on our marriage of a 15 hour rolling average of time, but then again -- what person would be willing to try to reconcile after her husband breaks her arm, the week before Christmas, 12 days after major surgery, and for threatening to call the woman he is denying is his affair partner? If he doesn't wake up and start treating me like a life partner, he's not going to have one. Period.

Cherished

***That's why something must change.***

You don't have to wait for "Something" to change. What's needed is for YOU to take control of this situation.

***What I told him is that HE moves out for a week, he doesn't have contact with me or the children, and then he can come back and try again to have 15 hours alone together.***

This is unenforceable. What will you do when he refuses to leave?

***Would any court allow this? No. We're in a no fault divorce state. If he doesn't honor my wishes that he leave us alone for a week, then I will file for legal separation.***

Really? Do you have this lined up? Do you know how to go about it and how long it will take?

***Yes, I have not followed through on my threats. He has reason to believe that I won't this time.***

That's why nothing ever changes.

***My back is up against the wall. It's not that I think I'm right. It's not that I have the emotional fortitude to stick with this approach. It's that my health is falling apart and I need to do something about it before I have real problems, like diabetes or chronic back pain or knee pain from so much weight going on my joints.***

Cherished, I sympathize with you. I really do. But even though you have the power and the resources to get out of this wretched situation and make a better life, you blame it all on your husband instead and wait for HIM to do something to make it better.

As somebody might say, "How's that workin' for ya?"

***Also, our kids have seen enough. Our 6 year old is to get a neuropsychologial evaluation. Do I bring along the pictures she drew of Dad angry?***

Yes.

***This is all so sick that I feel like those bishops must have felt when the sex abuse allegations hit the papers.***

Then don't be like them. Don't hide your head in the sand hoping it will all magically go away. Use your OWN power and your OWN resources to save yourself and your children and stop waiting for somebody else to do it.

Please don't wait until it's too late.
Mulan

Mulan,

There is something called a tipping point. More like a breaking point. That's where I feel I am now and the children are now. They came home with just terrific report cards and the conferences were incredible -- my son described as "unique" in his intellectual capability and motivation, my daughter described as bright and polite and highly motivated...I left the school just walking on air.

Our daughter got an "F" for a midquarter grade in Band practice, and our son had such a radical change in behavior that his teacher sent me an email outlining what was going on and expressing concern.

I do have the lawyer lined up, and I have the documentation she needs. The state simply doesn't care that my condition for marriage was 15 hours per week. That isn't what gets evaluated. People can divorce if one person wants to divorce. Period.

Cherished

It must have hurt him terribly that she would want him gone.

Why would you surmise that?

All the atrocities that you allege he has committed against you would not make him a man that would be hurt by this.

You are deep in some kind of fog cherished. You drop MC and IC if they don't tell you what you want to hear...which is that he will change and a marriage is possible with him. Didn't Harley tell you that he doesn't think your husband is capable of caring about another person?

At this point, I've taken up so much of Harley's time on emails in the private forum that it is downright embarassing. Harley has said that marriages end when there is no hope. Well, I'll ALWAYS have hope

Could it be embarassing because he is telling you the same thing over and over...and you are refusing to listen? You can spin it any way that you like but it remains the same cherished.

You are not issuing any ultimatums. You are simply giving the man a "time-out" when he doesn't do what you demand, which is 15 hours a week.

So, tell me...why would you even want 15 hours with the man that you say did those monsterous things to you.

If you think that 15 hours of time per week is going to fix your marriage, you are in some serious denial.

I would expect something like this from an uneducated woman, not from someone that has an MBA. What is keeping you from applying your knowledge?

committed

I recognize that I may be in some sort of fog, an abuse fog, and I do question why I would want to spend 15 hours per week with him hearing how demanding I am to want to spend time with him in a way that is enjoyable for both of us.

Harley is of the view that Tom will follow the program for a time and then somehow sabotage it. He may be right.

I'm very tired of this. An ultimatum which is a threat is given with a lot of emotion. This one was given with calm. I'm not even sure it's worth trying anymore, even with his being willing to spend 15 hours per week with me. I AM sure it's not worth living with him if he isn't willing to spend 15 hours per week with me and put forth the effort to make it enjoyable for both of us.

He can't do anything about the past. He can do something about the present. If he isn't willing to spend 15 hours per week with me, then I will follow through with a separation. It's as simple as that. Harley's program, when it comes right down to it, is very simple: spend 15 hours per week together alone meeting each other's intimate emotional needs, and reach joint agreement on decisions. What has confused me is Tom not being in agreement with either the concept of joint agreement or the 15 hours. He doesn't want to be divorced, which puzzles me because he hasn't shown a desire to spend time with me, so I am left with having to state the conditions under which I will live with him.

Hold my feet to the fire -- PLEASE. I'll report how the time spent together goes and if we are spending time together. I make the commitment that I will ask for a one week separation if we don't stay above a rolling average of 15 hours, and I will make the commitment that I will hire a lawyer to start the legal separation process if he doesn't respect the one week separation.

We measure time spent together Monday through Sunday. We spent 15.5 hours together from December 5 - 11, even though we had a Boy Scout troop meeting at our house on Monday night, Tom left Tuesday for San Francisco and didn't return until Friday night, and I took the kids from noon to 8 PM on Sunday afternoon to the Mayo Clinic about two hours away to visit my father who had heart bypass surgery last week. If we could make that sort of time together with those sorts of things going on, I think that we can do it consistently. There just has to be the commitment to do it.

This week's time will be added to last week's to provide a kind of cushion for time, so that I'm not asking for a separation because of unexpected circumstances in the first few weeks we do this. After that, it's 15 hours per week, week in and week out, until Harley's program is done and I am told that I have fallen back in love with Tom.

Cherished

is this for real?


Who's responsible for telling you you're in love??

They have a test as part of the MB program. They ask you to rate from -3 to +3 statements like, "My spouse brings out the best in me." My answers now are on the negative side.

Cherished

Cherished-
I have been following your situation. This is no longer about marriage, or a loving, healthy relationship/partnership.

This could be life or death! Not only for you, but your children, as well. Even THEY seem to know what would be best! Unfornately, they are not able to make this choice for themselves, so they look to YOU to do the right thing.

You mentioned your H possibly being "hurt" by the fact that your child would want him gone. What about the pain of your child of having him there, after all they have seen and heard? It's already effected them, and could only get worse.

This is not meant to be harsh, just trying to help you see this from another perspective. The perspective of your children, and the way they have to cope with this.

It should no longer be about you and H. It should be all about the children. Set a new goal, on a new mission! Set an example for your children, or else someday, your daughter will be in a abusive relationship, and you will be banging your head against the wall, trying desparately to get thru to her, as everyone here is trying to do with you. PLEASE.........call your parents! Go home.

I will keep you in my prayers!!

Jennifer68