Hi, after lurking for a while and reading the many post on porn use in marriage I would like to ask those who use porn a question.
I keep reading that men and women think of porn in different ways and this seems right.

people keep writing that men are visual but why cant they get this visual stimulation from their wives, why do they need porn.. If its variety they want then why do they get married in the first place?

Sometimes, they arent getting visual stimulation from their wives. Not to excuse the guys for going to porno...but sometimes it is the fact that their wife is not taking care of their need for SF...which includes the visual stimulation.

In His arms.

so would it be right to assume that men using porn feel their wives are not visually stimulating? if this is true I think most wives would be offended to know their husbands didnt find them visually stimulating and might not want to have sex with them if they believe this

I understand women may not always be availbale but surely a husband could take some photos of his wife . Im sure most wives would be happy to do this if it meant their husband didnt need porn..

Okay, I was guilty of this. But it wasnt because I didnt find my wife physically attractive. Quite the opposite, actually. She is very attractive...to me...and even on model standards. So, why porno?

Sometimes, in the hectic life of newborns, work, financial issues, etc., it becomes easier not to hassle the wife over sex. She is tired...it becomes an endeavor to try to get SF like you want and need it. So, you look for other things to occupy you. That way, he doesnt have go thru the rejection all of the time.

Now, as you said...why not pictures of my wife? I had pictures of my wife. I took them on deployment with me. They were great.

But, let me let you in on a little secret about men. When I was having adequate SF with my wife, then I loved looking at the pictures. When I wasnt...all the pictures did was remind me of my frustration and what I wasnt getting, so to speak.

My use of porno was wrong, and hurt my wife deeply. I did not know that at the time. But, there are reasons we get involved in that. Pictures we take of our wives are nice, but no substitute for seeing and having the real thing.

In His arms.

Thank you for asking such a relevant question. I certainly can’t speak for other men, but I think that I am able to answer your query.

A background about myself: I use porn, or actually masturbation, to keep my sex drive in check. W and I make love 2x week, and for better or worse, for me it is not enough, thus porn. W is OK with it, and makes us both happy. Yes, I’d prefer making love to her 5x a week, but that is just not realistic, thus masturbation.

But to answer your query: not all porn is visual. Actually, for most of my adult life my porn collection was not visual, but pornographic stories printed off the internet, or magazine with porn stories in them. Porn stories for me had been much more satisfying then static images in print. Now, there is a bit of porn mags, and little bit of stories, and little bit of images on the internet. Some guys, not me, even get off to aural stimulation.

And actually, a lot of times (say 40%) my masturbation is without porn, during which I visualize doing various sex acts ONLY with my wife. I can honestly say that since I started going steady with her I have not fantasized about having sex with anyone else. Even on those rare occasions when I visualize making love to more then one woman at a time, all women are just replicas of her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

And yes, seeing my wife naked does get my heart going. She is beautiful, and I do prefer to look at her to anyone else, whether she is lying next to me, or I use Polaroids that we took way back when we were engaged, or I simply think about her beautiful body and what I can do to her.

Can’t speak for other guys, but I totally disagree. Blaming use of porn on the guy’s wife is just wrong. A woman should NEVER feel guilty that “only if she performed, then he would not use porn.” This is the kind of cr&p that some guys lay on their spouses in order to make them feel guilty about frequency of SF. To me it is plain abusive behavior by a man towards his W who is willing to do anything to get rid off smut from their home. Not only is it unfair, but it will NOT work.

A woman should NOT feel that porn use by H is somehow her fault.

NO!! NO!! Not me anyway...



If a guy does not find her visually stimulating, then yes, she has every right to be offended.



I doubt it. Since getting out of college, and being a grown up my W simply refuses me to take any pornographic pictures of her, and refuse to star in any porn movies. Pity. Her reasons are not vanity, but practical: she is afraid that such pictures or movies might some day be inadvertently seen by someone besides her or myself. (Yes, I’d hide them, but she is still worried.)

But theoretically, yes, with sufficient amount of pornographic pictures or movies of her, I'd get rid off commercial porn in a heart beat.

I did not BLAME the use of porn on the wife. I actually have said over and over that use of porno for any reason, even if both spouses are into it, is a sin and shouldnt be there. I have also said that my use of porno in the way described here was MY problem and should not have happened. Not my wife's fault...mine!


What are you talking about? I described doing exactly as you are doing. The only difference is that your wife says it is okay, and mine said she didnt want it there. You said you wanted SF a lot more than your wife was willing to offer. So, you (and her) have decided to allow you to use porno on the days when she is unavailable or doesnt feel like it. The only difference I described in the situation is where the wife is upset that the husband is now doing this and she doesnt like it. Of course, she still wants to only twice a week. But she doesnt want to do as your wife has, and allow her husband an outlet.

So, that husband just does this in order to take care of things, and lessen the tension between them. But what the guy doesnt realize is that by just doing his thing, he is actually making things a lot worse.


Not her fault...just as adultery is not the fault of the BS. The sin is on the person doing it. But the wife should learn why her husband is doing this, just as a BS learns why their spouse chose adultery. Almost always it is unmet emotional needs. And then the wife, just like the BS, should find a better way to meet the needs of thei husband...just as we teach here that the BS should find better ways to meet the needs of their WSs.

In His arms.

**WARNING PERSONAL OPINION**READ AT YOUR OWN RISK**VENT

The issue of porn has been going around quite a bit lately northerngal and I agree that I do not understand how men can use this form of sexual stimuli and still be married.I am finding the oft repeated "visual stimulation" statement bothersome and I understand that some men use it to describe what they are feeling.

I sometimes wish there was a planet that men could go to so they could do nothing but scr** all day long so we wouldn't have to hear about it anymore.Women are sexual beings too and enjoy sex but procreation is not such endangered issue and we are overpopulated as it is IMO.So,the sex drive of the american male(curse) has to be dealt with daily and for many women it is quite tiring.I am speaking of myself and my women friends and their spouses.



I don't understand this statement MM.If a man isn't sexually enticed or stimulated by his W then what IS a woman to do? If you can't appreciate what you have then who's fault is it if we are going to land blame somewhere? Yes some women do "let themselves go" as do some men.Let's be fair.It's no picnic having some balding, pot bellied,beer drinking, unemotional,porn gawking slug as a spouse.



As much as I agree with Dr.Harley's principles,I don't agree with all of them.EN's are a questionable "reason" why some people cheat.If it is a possibility,then why don't other's who have long gone without EN's being met,such as me,not cheat? It's but one small fragment of a whole why some do cheat,if at all.

IMO,as I have said before,there is vast difference in how women feel about porn and how men view it.To me it's like the scourge of adultery.It's there,it's available,it's cheap and disgusting,people are doing it and it's ruining marriages and families.

Compromise has to be discussed obviously when it comes to the varying sex drives because in my experience with friends,etc some/most men seem to want/need more and some women want/need less.I don't have specific numbers to throw out but am just basing this view on my own lifes experiences.So what to do? Well,as has been said before,the person who wants less should do what they can to fill the SF needs a bit more and the one who usually desires more sex cuts back a bit so there is some form of mutual agreement(balance) in how to deal with this issue.But porn is not healthy IMO and unless there is a full and enthusiastic agreement to use it in the marriage by BOTH spouses then it should not be used.I would like to see it completely eradicated myself but I know that is not realistic.Too much money being made all around.



Just what kinds of "outlets" are we talking about? Personally,I have no problem using masturbation as an outlet.It's singular and does not involve anyone else which to me is being unfaithful in heart,mind and soul to be viewing sleazy women in graphic poses in rags like Playboy,Penthouse,Hustler and other's.It's just astounding to me that it's still considered "OK" .Thers's just no end to the degradation going on.Hopefully a husband is at least fantasizing about his own wife at that time then some other woman.

Porn feeds a "need" and it's not a good one just in the same ways adultery feeds a "need" but is totally wrong in every single aspect.IMO the cycle of men encouraging the use of porn,the secrecy and the payoff for using have to be changed.

Ok,vent off.

O

Same goes here. Personal opinion here. But let me help you little, if I can.


Have yu heard the studies? The ones that most men think about sex or sex-related thoughts something like 8 times a minute or some large amount? You are going to hear this often...but men and women are different. And the male sex drive is not bad...it is just male.


This is a part of the problem that I am speaking about. Men are to learn about their wives, learn to communicate, learn to listen. But, for a man to ask for the same consideration for his needs almost alway meets with women looking at us guys as if we are asking for something wrong.


While there are many out there that believe sex should only be for procreation, let me leave that thought for a second. Sex is the one act given by God that belongs entirely to the husband and wife. God made it pleasurable for a reason.


This is precisely the problem here. The male sex drive is a "curse" and must be "dealt" with. So, we take this to the other side of the table and say "well, the American woman's need for converation (curse) must be dealt with." How's that make you feel if your husband actually believed that? If he actually believed your need was a curse and must be dealt with? Think there might arise an intimacy problem? Women (not all) take the wrong attitude about sex and the male sex drive...and wonder later on why he has strayed, or gotten into porno...or left for the 22 year old secretary.


Not what I said! Look, when my wife was pregnant, she went from a 5'09" 140lbs stunning woman, to a 210lbs, acne on her face, pregnant woman. do you think I felt sexually toward her? DARN RIGHT! Why? Because she made sure to be alluring to me, to entice me, to continue to meet my needs. Even with her weight gain and all, I found her as desirable as when I first met her. I speaking of women, not so much letting themselves go (although that is a huge thing for a guy...if she willingly lets herself go) as it is that his wife no longer tries to be alluring, to entice him. Read my link on what God expects out of wives. One of the things God wants wives to do is to continually seduce their husband. Why? Because it is a need that men have (most).


Oh, I agree. And Dr. Harley agrees also. My iwfe was cheating and my needs werent being met...and I didnt stray. Unmet needs are just one component. But it is a component. A weak person isnt going to seek out something they aleady are getting (of course there are always exceptions). So, if their needs are being met, they wont be challenged by their weakness. I obviously know my wife is capable of cheating. I also know my contribution to that. And I know that even if I do meet those needs, she may still cheat and/or leave. But while this isnt a 100% science, meeting their needs ups the odds exponentially that your marriage will make it.


No argument here!


True.


True. And these are other ways besides cutting back or increasing, as I have discussed on other threads.


As a Christian, I believe it doesnt matter whether the husband and wife agree or not...porno is really a form of adultery in God's eyes and is easily a sin as adultery is. I also would like to see it go away.


Almost always, I was thinking of my wife. But just thinking about her wasnt enough...I needed visual stimulation. Without it, then the "act" didnt happen.


I agree it needs to go away. But again, as I have said throughout this, I agree with you about men and about porno. that it needs to go away. But, this situation isnt all done just by disgusting men who cant control themselves. Women have a place at this table...and if they love their husbands the way that they say that they do, then it would be in their best interest in finding out what and why these needs are and help find a way to meet them.

In His arms.

It's no picnic having some balding, pot bellied,beer drinking, unemotional,porn gawking slug as a spouse.

OCTOBERGIRL.......JUST VISUALIZING YOUR DESCRIPTION ABOVE IS YUCK!! EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!

I think the Porn Industry is like the days of Noah....TOTAL PERVERSION!! Jesus told us it would happen...but woe to those involved in it.

Lady

When I was a young man, I asked a couple of my buddies what they got from masturbating to porn instead of their GF. One told me that the porn women do not ask to be romanced in order to get in the mood. The other guy said that unlike the sex with his GF, whom he said felt more like duty sex on her part, the porn women showed an enthusiasm towards sex that matched his. And another guy said that porn women do not reject you like real women do. In retrospect, it strikes me that their porn usage may have been more of a rebellion against real women. They MAY have felt resentment against the perceived domination of sexual power that women had over them and thus viewed them as enemies rather than companions. If this is the case then it really is sad commentary. Instead of acknowledging the necessary differences between the sexes and working to achieve a common ground where both could have been able to meet their most important emotional needs by the other, they instead chosed to allow their resentment to help them escape reality via porn, just like a drug addicts or alcoholics do, and set the future pattern for destructive relationships with women. Sad indeed.

TMCM

I think October and MM both have put into words the problems that men and women have with each other. My wife could have written what Oct wrote and I think a lot of women would agree with it. I think that MM also gave a great response and this is why it is so hard to remain married.

Women value other needs so they put them at a higher value. Sex is not just a physical need to a man. It is also an emotional need for a man. It is not just the sex but it is also the closeness and the only thing that I can think of that should not be met outside the marriage. It was the one thing my wife could do to me that showed me that she loved me and cared for me.

You can get several other needs met outside the marriage but sex cannot be met outside the marriage. Now a couple of years back I tried to make my wife happier so I could get more SF. So I was the best H that I could be and tried to meet every one of her needs. My expectation was that she would reciprocate but that was my downfall. I became a little bitter about it and she was disappointed because she thought I changed and she did not need to have SF with me. She kept saying why do you want to ruin everything when it is so great now. I found out one of her needs seemed to be not to have to have SF with me. The less she had the happier she became. The only problem is the more miserable I became.

I am divorcing now due to her infidelity. I want her to be happy and I was never happy my whole marriage. She withheld sex all the time and used it as a weapon. I wish I could have withheld all the money I make every time she did this but that is not practical. You see she values things and I had given her plenty. I have not played nice since I caught her and now she wants me back. I do not want her back and told her to go make her life with the OM or some other guy just go ahead and move on. I came to the conclusion there was no making her happy without me being miserable. We went to a counselor and I was stunned at some things my STBXW said about sex and why she was unhappy.

Women want to be romanced and be pursued and want to be cherished. It is very hard to keep a woman happy because they are much more complex than men. If you give your man all the sex he wants and show him appreciation for what he does for you that is all most men will need. One of the reasons our marriage did not work is my wife was never happy and I wanted her to be happy. I did all I could but recently I figured out I was in a losing battle. Now she wants me and I can’t even look at her or touch her. I am giving her pick of any man she wants to pursue and now she wants me. I just want to be left alone.

If you do not meet your H’s SF need then why do you complain about Porn. Some men use Porn instead of their wife and that is wrong. But if a woman does not want to meet his needs they should not be shocked if he looks at Porn and takes care of the problem himself. I am not a big porn user but I understand why people might.

Men feel and experience love thru SF. We are not women.

OK, this is a long post and I read most, but everyone looks (we are human after all), but don't take it too far. I expect my wife to notice a good looking man, but it should stop there. That is the problem with porn also, you become calloused the more you look, so then you do it more often to get the same feeling or you get more depraved. You have to be very careful with that stuff.

Sorry that guys' needs bother you so much.

Just out of curiosity, what would you answer a guy who complains:
...So, the need to be appreciated and the need for conversation of the American woman (curses) has to be dealt with dialy, and for many men it is quite tiring. I am speaking of myself and my men friends and their spouses.... I wish that there would be a planet that women could go to so they could do nothing but sit around and yack and b!tch all day long so that us men wouldn't have to put up with it anymore.....


What would you call such a guy?

OK, let's recap:
Question 1: Whose fault is it that a man isn't sexually enticed or stimulated by his W?
Answer: It's the man's fault for not appreciating what he has.

Question 2: Whose fault is it that a man isn't enticing to his wife?
Answer: It's the man's fault for letting himself go.

And yes! Let be fair: It is always mens' fault. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Read the book "False Intimacy", it talks about this in depth. There is SOME physical drive for a male to pro-create but this all falls into intimacy and trying to get it any way you can. Romance novels are to women as porn is to man. When a woman watches a love story, the feelings you get are the same a man gets through porn. Women just have a hard time making that connection. But the gentleman who wrote this book is a Christian Doctor of Psychology and has studied this for 30 yrs. Ultimately you and your spouse have to be COMITTED to meeting each others needs...emotionally and physically.

A serious question:
You seem to think that masturbation is OK, but porn is not. What is your view on non-photographic porn? What is your view on pornographic drawings or pornographic stories?

Thanks!

MM, if I may, imho the "problem" is not a "man" or "woman" problem, it is a sin problem. For those who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they can "debate" the causes ad nauseum and it won't make a difference or solve anything.

We ARE as we are because God created us that way. Just as with all emotions, there is the potential for both "good" and "bad" use of those emotions.

The Scripture "acknowledges" that men, in particular, WILL "look" at attractive women but it becomes a sin when they "lust after them" in their hearts. It can also happen to women, but generally speaking, it's a function of the hormone testosterone and God's commands to Adam and Eve following the Fall. For women, the "problem" tends to lie more in the "Women's Movement," Women's Lib if you will. It has elevated many women's thoughts to the idea that they "Don't need a man" and can do whatever they want to do. That INCLUDES being "In charge" of their own bodies even though they are married. That leads to many a problem, but we'll not go there now. Suffice it to say, it "skews" their concept of a "godly marriage."

So here is the "short answer" to the "problem." All of these "Reasons" being stated are EXCUSES to commit sin. They are merely a means of "justification," just like a WS uses justification and rationalization to sin against God and their spouse in adultery.

When we marry we GIVE UP the right to "selfish pursuits" and take on the mantle of "servanthood" toward our spouse. Or at least that's the way it is supposed to be.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1Cor 13:4-7 NIV)

Contrast that outflowing of LOVE with the "reasons and excuses" given here FOR porn usage and FOR women who think "they got their man and can not WORK at being married anymore and the husband should just 'take what they are given'."

"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1Cor 7:1-5 NIV emphasis added)

THE issue is NOT the "desire," the "need," or the "temptation." THE issue is disobedience to God's commands and PRIDE, putting self ahead of God and spouse.

"I deserve it...."

"It's harmless, after all, it's not the same thing as MURDER!"

Excuses, one and all, for disobedience to God and FOR the "right to sin" for personal choice and pleasure.

It is as it has been since the "apple," and ONLY humble obedience to God's commands, REGARDLESS of what we might be feeling, is the answer. To the unbelievers, there IS no God and no "God's Standard," hence they are left to "perfect human reason." Relatively speaking, "it's all relative, then, isn't it?"

I was going to write that when the guys in my sexual addiction group give their testimony, and there are over 100 guys in the group, they will always say 1 thing at the beginning of their testimony that makes everyone laugh because we all say the one same thing. It's "I was addicted to porn and I thought getting married would fix the problem." Getting married never fixes the problem, it just introduces a new challenge.