Wow! All this talk about porn and the views that go with them. I'm just glad my W is pro-porn and sometimes brings home some new stuff as a surprise.

OK, Octobergirl, I think that you understand the situation:
I stated that you are amazed how high sex drives of most males are. You call it a curse. I tend to agree that it is really burdensome at times. The question that remains then is: what do we do about it?

If a man does have a stronger sexual drive then his wife does, he has several options:
(1) force his wife to submit to him more often, and have her serve him sexually more then she would be comfortable;
(2) be sexually unfulfilled and frustrated, resent wife's lack of low sexual drive, wonder if he should have married her in the first place, and even wonder if he can get a little side action going or; or
(3) devote 10 minutes couple of times a week to porn and get on with his life.

Option (1) is out for us. I would never want to make my wife do something like that. Even if she does it just to please me and gets nothing out of it, is a very disgusting idea. SF is something for both of us, and not for me.
Option (2) is out for me. If I don’t get a release on regular basis (which is more then SF with W), then I am climbing the walls. I got work to do, money to make, I don’t have time thinking about sex all the time instead of working.
Option (3) is a logical solution for me.

Given your understanding of the high male sex drive, I am then totally perplexed at the following comment:

If not porn, and if not have the W give in, then what? Just control his urges? Are you really suggesting that men’s need do not need to be satisfied just because you do not like porn? Would you really be happy if guys at work, school, store, etc., would be sexually frustrated and be preoccupied with sex because their wives forbade them the use of porn?

I really feel for you and other women. It really has gotten worse.

I totally understand what you are saying. And it sounds logical. Unfortunately, it is just the opposite.

Your premise that the use of porn will make you seem like a piece of meat is turned on its head. Simply, if a guy is sexually unfulfilled, then he is MORE likely to see you as a sex object and not as a person. (As Dr. Harley writes: sexual activity decrease sex drives of men and increases sex drives in women) Thus, if you cut off porn to a guy, and if his wife does not increase SF with him, then you WILL have a sexually unfulfilled guy. You will have then guys on the street whistling at you, etc.

So porn use by guys that you work with or meet on the street or church, as disgusting as it seems, make them LESS likely to consider you as simply a piece of meat.

I am sure you are H4F. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

O

AG,

In my uncomplicated view of the world (see sig line) I would like to think that we could overcome our obstacles,urges and bad behavior to negotiate/compromise,balance our lives with other's.For some it may take a lot of work to get to a point to even understanding what that entails.To me it is habit and I tailor my responses to the differences in each person I interact with.Maybe it has some basis in learning how to deal with patients and how each one is different.It is recognizing certain things "right away" such as fears,weaknesses,strengths,etc and how to build upon it or deconstruct it.

What do we do about differing sex drives? Well,it's a topic that's been covered many times before but has also received the same opposition and altered viewpoints as before.

1) Submitting,even the very word doesn't fly with me and may even offend some women when taken literally.Personally I would see no problem engaging in a bit more sex,even if I didn't really feel like it,to please my H/BF/SO.I used to do this with my own H.It made me happy to please him even if I didn't get fully into the sex at one particular time.But again,it's a balance of what I feel is ok with me.I would not want to feel pressured into something I didn't want to do.I also would not want to fall into the "trap" of it being expected all the time that I would "give in".That could lead to resentment.

2)If the mentality is to get "some" on the side just because you can't have sex 10 times a week,maybe the issue isn't exactly the sex but you.Just as an example mind you.If someone is sexually frustrated at the frequency of sex in their relationship,then the question becomes what is more important? More sex so therefore I leave my W or do with less and stay with the woman I love if the "balance" can't be agreed upon.I think this happens,in other areas too, a lot.

3)To me this is not an option.

In any negotiation/compromise, someone is going to "lose" at least a bit of what they may fully want.But how important that loss is to the person is their decision and how they react to it is also their choice.For example,I would have loved it if my WH did more activities with me.Anything.He was just always so busy with work,standard story.So,I felt and made the choice that HE was more important to me than doing more activities,with someone else.So I stayed in my marriage.My drive to be active never outweighed my desire to be with the man I loved.



Good question.I am not a man so I can only speculate.What about being more active in other areas.Masturbation? Why not if it doesn't include porn and thinking about other women? Is that so difficult? An honest question.Based on past conversations here,there are people here pleasing themselves until they get thru their D,meet someone new post D or just aren't engaged enough sexually with their WS who is in withdrawal or what have you.I see nothing wrong with that but in reference to your statement:



No I am not suggesting that,I am suggesting porn not be an option WHILE MARRIED.Not to mention ever but forget that part for now.



Isn't that the case NOW? It's been a long standing problem.How we reconcile that I am not sure.Much more is at play.Another example,I have a few women friends,who are around my age and a few years older.Some are D'd.Now,the men they try and date,well,they want some 25 year old to start over with and feel young again with.Some trophy GF so other men can see,"WOW,he must have it going on".What a guy.

Ever see that movie," Something's Gotta Give"? with Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson? There is a scene where the sister discusses women like Diane Keatons character PRECISELY how many women I know see it.Women are supposed to be in their sexual prime in and around the 30's.Not all women mind you but it was true for me.Now my H is gone with some 30 y.o. homewrecking trash.What a *@#$%^! cliche.

It's just hard to get past the feeling that being dumped for some younger woman is always a possibility or,even being "dumped" for some piece of trash in a porn mag.It's not a feel good situation.It happens all the time.Is it any wonder women are fueled with anxiety from men and their actions? Even Low Orbit agreed with me when I postulated that men are "pigs,skirt chasers and bereft of emotion".

O

quote]

Have you ever looked into the abuse being part of your SF problem in your marriage. If not, I would suggest you get some counseling. It may be blocking you from allowing your husband the level of intimacy you both need for you to be able to be what he needs.
[color:"green"] [/color]


Oh, porn is everywhere in the military. Guys use it to pass the time when away from their gals. My last deployment (when my wife's affair started), I took naked pictures of my wife with me. And you know what? That was enough. The guys over there that didnt really partake were usually the guys that had outlets like that. Their wife would send pictures or videos. Or letters laced with sex talk. These things helped the husband a) he had a visual outlet for himself; and b) she had shown that his needs were important to her. Thus, no need to stray...no need or porno.

The military environment is ripe for porno because we are forced to be away from our gals for long periods of time. The best marriages have found a way to overcome that. Those are the models that everyone should copy, whether in the military or not.

In His arms. [/quote]

He knew about it when we got together. We both have worked through this together. I think it has affected me more in the trust issue than the sexual issue. As an example when he would come home from deployment we had been known to have sf up to six times in a day. I did not back off until he started spending more time and effort on other females, until I no longer felt safe. Not until he started lieing and my gut started screaming at me. If I dont' feel safe with him I have a very hard time giving of myself and he knows this. When I feel safe I am very much into giving him SF.

It just seems that sometimes guys want to have SF at the most inconvenient time, like its a challenge to see if we will do it when and where they want it. And if we don't pass that challenge then we are not giving in to their need. Such as when I'm ill, or the kids are being very demanding or any number of times.

The one thing I cannot do is give my spouse a naked pic of myself. That goes back to trust, I don't trust where it could end up or what he might do with it, or if he would use it against me. All these years when he was gone he insisted that it was me he was thinking about, I knew in my gut that was not true and he has admitted it. I'm not using it against him, just hurt.

Now I would love to have SF all the time and it hurts knowing that he can get excited and stay that way for someone he has never even met or even for coworkers. But for me.......

I sooo agree with what is being said here. When I feel respected by my spouse I am willing to do most anything for him. When I know he puts me above any other female he can get so much from me. Feeling safe is another feeling that will go far. If I am not feeling safe with my spouse how can I share something so important to me.

Sorry AG but this WREAKS of women having to be the sole responsible parties for *preventing men from ogling women and even maybe sexually assaulting them because they have sexual needs that may very well be out of control or at the least,unhealthy.Maybe it is neither but I AM NOT going to be held responsible for some strangers unmet SF.If the suggestion is that some guys W/GF/SO isn't putting out for him at home so he goes roaming and now *I* or my daughter are the recipient of his unwanted attention then I am going to call the police or spray him with mace.

Good grief AG.Are we looking at a future of streets filled with sexually dangerous men? It's bad enough NOW.

O

An honest answer:

It seems that you masturbation as OK, but you view porn not OK.

To me, masturbation to porn or masturbation without porn is fairly close.

Interesting. Very interesting.

I would have expected that a person who is against porn because it puts strain on a marriage (as opposed a person who is against porn because porn is simply wrong) would also be against masturbation for the same reason. After all, the major problem with porn in marriage, if I understand it, is that the man uses it as an escape from devoting himself to his wife, using it as a substitute in place of SF with his W, committing adultery with a fantasy, etc. To me masturbation by a man without porn has exactly the same potential problems in marriage as masturbating using porn.

Well, let me ask you your viewpoint:
Are you against porn in marriage because:
(a) it takes away from the loving relationship that H and W have (which is the viewpoint of Dr. Harley); or
(b) porn is simply wrong in itself (i.e., it degrades women, it is morally repugnant, it exploits young women, etc.)?

If you chose (a), then the same may be said of masturbation. If you chose (b), then porn should have no effect on your marriage.

Here is that ocean of difference I mentioned before,mainly about you.Masturbation for "release" without porn to me is in itself,safe,non-threatening and doesn't hurt anyone.

When you add porn into the situation,all of the list above is negated.



Nope.We are talking again about men's sex drives and porn usage.If a man,as you claim,needs more release and "in general" needs more sex then masturbation is a safe and harmless way of doing that that doesn't hurt anyone,most of all the W unless she happens to have a strong aversion to it for some reason.Of course,if this becomes the routine instead of a healthy sex life with their spouse then yes,it's a problem too.


It's not supposed to be used in place of.It's in addition TO if the man has a higher sex drive than his wife and would like some way to get release.I never said a man should not have an outlet,but he should have one that is appropriate.I don't think porn is.



Well,I would agree only if,as I said before,the masturbation is all that is happening instead of a healthy sex life that inlcudes both partners.In my view,more women would feel "safer" and secure if their H masturbated to get release *without porn.It's almost a no brainer IMO.Ask around.

Viewpoints:

a) Yes.But like I mentioned to TMCM,there are those couples out there where porn is 100% ok for both parties.I acknowledge that.I don't agree with it though.I've been in some very heated discussions on another board where this was the case.

b)Agreed.




Again,only if the masturbation supercedes the loving and sexually fulfilling relationship the spouses should be having *together*.That can be said for many things(i.e. computer use,activities,etc).Many things can interfere with marriage if done overabundantly.

I'll use my In-Laws as an example.My FIL LOVES to be active.ALL the time.It drives my MIL crazy.It's one thing to share in things together and share time with one another.But he literally cannot stay still for long.And my poor MIL,with her bad knees,just cannot keep up even if she wanted to.My FIL likes to bike across the country as fun.I am a bit surprised that things aren't bad between them but they perservere and their marriage is stable.




I just don't see this as ever being true,IMO,should I ever decide to marry again.It was already a problem in my M when the A began.WH couldn't get enough with the homewrecker since he was home pretending to be faithful(NC) so he resorted to porn and left it on my home computer where my girls could have seen this smut. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He got an earful when that happened,more than once too! grrrrr

O

I am sorry. That is NOT what I meant at all.

I guess I am not communicating well enough. Or maybe my logic is all wrong, I dunno....

Please let me know where I am wrong:

(1) On the street it is the guys who are sexually frustrated that ogle women. If men are sexually satisfied, they will more likely have other things to worry about, and will treat women as people, instead of pieces of meat.

(2) Sexually frustrated men are those men who do not get to orgasm as frequently as their sex drives would direct them. If a guy needs to orgasm 5x a week, but gets to orgasm only 1 a week, he will be frustrated. If a guy needs to orgasm 5x week, and does orgasm 5x week, he will be sexually satisfied.

(3) If a guy who needs to orgasm 5x a week, but W is ready/willing/able to have SF only for 2 or 3x, then he will be sexually frustrated. If on the other hand, he is somehow able to make love to his W 2x week, but still orgasm 5x per week, he will be sexually satisfied.

(4) If a guy orgasms 5x week, but only 2x week with his wife, the balance of orgasms must come from someplace. Thus porn (or actually masturbation)

To me, if you wish to be around men who are sexually satisfied and treat you like a person instead of a sex object, it makes sense to be around those who use porn.

Where does my logic fall short?

No,this is good.I like to debate and see how other's think.As long as you want to go on we can.



I am no stranger to sexual frustration.I think most if us have experienced it at one time or another.But being a woman,being ogled on the street is just plain rude and actually scary.In this day and age,you just never know what a man is capable of.Speaking in my situation only.Once,I was walking down the street as a young girl and I befriended a young man who I thought I was nice.We passed eachother every day on our way home from work.One day,he was talking to me and smiling and then,he touched me in a very inappropriate way and this look on his face,I don't know,he became a very dangerous person to me at that very moment.I guess you could say I was groped.It happened in a flash.

I bet if you polled the women on this board,many would have some story to tell of not feeling safe around a man.As secure as I am,I now have to be on my guard wherever I go.I will not become a victim if I can help it.Now the mace helps me feel more secure.Rather than carry a gun,it's my choice.

**HOW men treat women IS A CHOICE,whether or not they are sexually frustrated.It's not an excuse.



Ok.If this is true,where does my responsibility lie? Do I HAVE to make sure the man in my life gets this release each week? Doesn't it become an obligation? What do the people who have other responsibilites do if they can't get it 5x per week? Life is more than sex.I am not saying that you said it wasn't.But it's only part of life and it needs to be put in perspective.IMO,sex has been put on a pedestal that hardyl any one will ever feel satisfied with fully when the temptations and fantasies far outweigh what reality is.




Notice how the issue is now all about how many orgasms.Is there anything else to live for? By your estimation,to have 5 orgasms a week,either have sex mon-fri or more than once in one day.Have children,work obligations,commute,sick family member.How does that fit in? It takes a very astute scheduler.



UGH.AG,ocean of difference again. MAJOR!

With all due respect AG,yes,your "logic" is much different than mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

O

Men ogle women whether they are sexually satisfied or not. A man's eyesight is atttuned to detecting motion. A woman with some swinging hips or boobies will be ogled. Literally, we can't help it. As men are told, "Window shopping is no problem as long as you don't buy."

Q: this is true,where does my responsibility lie? Do I HAVE to make sure the man in my life gets this release each week? Doesn't it become an obligation?
A: Your obligation in a M is to make sure both parties needs are met. If one person's needs aren't met, the M will die.

The question is whether both parties needs are being met in a M. Some men do get so enamored with his own hand that he no longer wants to have sex with his W, so his W is being neglected. Some women want more sex then their H. Cruise the board--there are lots of women who want sex as much or more than their husbands.

It is hard to have sex when you have little kids. It isn't impossible, however.

The problem, IMHO, is that many Hs and Ws can't talk about sex.

Q: What do the people who have other responsibilites do if they can't get it 5x per week?
A: They masturbate.

Thank you. I appreciate a good debate. And I appreciate that this discussion has simply not degraded into name calling. Though I really should be doing other things than wasting time on the internet... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I understand what you are saying. It is totally degrading how idiotic guys can be. And it almost makes me feel ashamed to be a man when I see such creeps, or actually criminals, doing this to women. Men like that deserve to be hung by their b&lls and not just be maced. I have a beautiful wife, and 2 young daughters. Heaven help a creep who'd do to any of them what that guy did to you.



I agree, it is not an excuse. Just like not locking your doors is not an excuse to be robbed. You get no argument from me. But the fact is, that it is more likely that it is sexually frustrated men who harass women then men who are sexually fulfilled.


As I stated before, I do not think that a woman should have SF just to satisfy a man. In my mind, SF should be a pleasant experience for both H and W. W is not a servant.

Yes, I understand that you are a wonderful woman who would want to help out her man. My wife has offered several times the same thing ("I am not in the mood, but I am willing to pleasure you.") but for me, it is simply a huge turn off. It would make me feel like a jerk who uses his W without considering her feelings. I just could not do it to her.

Thus, in my mind, SF should never be an obligation. That's an excellent way of getting her to develop an aversion to sex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


BINGO! I agree completely. Even if my W wanted to have SF with me 5x week, we simply could not do it because of our other obligations. If we were retired, or bored college kids, that would be one thing. But we got a life to live. Thus I agree that it is totally IMPRACTICAL for busy people to have SF 5x a week.

The problem still remains though: I still want it 5x a week. Whether we have SF 2x week because of her lower sex drive, or because of insufficient time, it still is only 2x a week, though I want it 5x.



Now, Octobergirl, is the MAJOR difference because you simply do not like porn, or because my logic ("harassement is perpetrated by sexually frustrated men; AND sexually frustrated men are those who don't orgasm as frequently as they'd like; AND the use of porn fills in any deficit of needed orgasms that is not provided by SF; ERGO if you want to prevent harassement support porn use") is flawed?

Jimmy,

Have you ever dared think that not only is this behavior inappropriate,unWANTED but hurtful? Men can't help it? Give me a break! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />



That's only part of the problem.Mixed views and how to deal with them are certainly a major hurdle.We are talking right now about porn and sex drives and not seeing eye to eye.

O

I agree with you, Octobergirl. There is simply no reason why guys should partake in such inappropriate, hurtful, and demeaning behavoir. It degrades women to sex object.

Do I notice "swinging hips or boobies"? Yes.
Do I stare, or oggle? No.
Would a sexually frustrated man who can't get enough of swinging hips or boobies stare? Most likely.

Go be with your W then! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The only reason I am here so much tonight is I am simultaneously working on something else so I am switching back and forth on the computer.


Women do want to feel protected and safe with a man.Granted not all men out there are creeps.But many of us have had our share and if you can understand,porn just adds fuel to that fire of not trusting,not feeling secure,not feeling sexy and respected.


This may be true but I don't have any evidence to substantiate that even sexually fulfilled men don't ALSO abuse women or roam the streets "looking" or secretly use porn or rape and kill women,etc.Sexually frustrated men will always come calling on women *because we are the only perceived method of sexual solution for them* IMO.We ARE viewed as sex OBJECTS.Unless they go after men for a homosexual experience.



Agreed.Why is this so complicated <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



For some women,it's an act of love to help your spouse feel good.For you it's a turn off and that is understandable.But for me,even though I may not have really wanted to go all the way,I gladly focused on my WH to make him feel good.I used to call it,"Husbands only night".Sometimes I would even get into it afterall.But I saw it as a gesture of love.Now if he kept asking and demanding,now that's a different story.I was always aware though to keep myself in check so I would not develop resentment.I was a giver for a big portion of my marriage.I didn't ask for much.Probably not in the best interest of my marriage.



And,I would love to go swimming,diving,horseback riding,shopping too several times a week but I can't and it's not realistic for many reasons.It may not be sex and some may not be actual EN's but they are important to me nonetheless.So,it's a "game" of scheduling and some loss.But I lived with it in favor of not losing my H and my marriage or creating more disturbance.But,if it was more important to me,we would have to have an indepth discussion about how to POJA.


I'm not going to tell you your logic is flawed.That is not for me to say nor do I know.It's opinion/viewpoint.

What I think is this: I would like to think that men can rise above(no pun intended!) porn use and be caring,repectful,decent human beings who are ALSO sexually exciting and fulfilling and fulfilled.I find porn declasse,hurtful and does not have any place in society.So,the very idea that for me to find a man who will treat me like a person instead of a sex object is only possible if the man views porn well,then by that standard,I would rather be alone.

O

Let's look at this in more depth:

Why is it a man notices swinging boobs and hips and not who she is as a WOMAN?? Are we reduced to body parts? What about my MIND? My FEELINGS? My DREAMS? My PAIN?

O

Octobergirl,

Bad behavior is not the sole domain of men. One 'lady' thought she had the right to grab my a**. My W was livid and was fit to be tied when I told her what had happened but she agreed to accompany me to my company's HR office to report the incident. The woman in charged of HR was literally cowering when my W expressed her extreme displeasure and told her that if this other woman even looks funny at me, she was going come back and make life for her a living he**. Needless to say that I got a written notice from HR expressing their regret for the incident and informing me that they had reprimanded the woman in question and was put on probation. Additionally an e-mail went out to all in which the company higher ups said that sexual harassment whether it came from a man or woman was not going to be tolerated. Never in a million years did I ever beleive that yours truly was going to be a target of sexual harassment but there you have it.

TMCM
[whose W is the only woman who can legally/emotionally/spiritually grab his bodily parts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />]

so would it be right to assume that men using porn feel their wives are not visually stimulating?
Only if you also assume the only reason people have sex outside the marriage is because they are not geting enough from their spouse.