This has GOT to be my quote of the day!

"You mean I wasn't supposed to drop that nuke on Moscow?"

The death penalty potentially sacrifices the innocent...totally unnecessarily.

Dr. Strangelove is alive and well.

Mortarman, I am feeling very smug right now. Before you posted above, I told her that while you doubtless felt that you could never visit someone who had killed one of your loved ones, that if God told you to, you'd still buck up and do it.

I am a soldier by nature. I have followed many orders that I did not agree with, that even cost me pain. If Jesus is my Lord, then He calls the shots. End of discussion!!

And tell her she owes you!!

In His arms.

There have been plenty of mistakes throughout history. That doesnt mean it wasnt a good idea. Let me ask a question...if we wrongly imprison a man for life for a murder and he dies of old age in the prison...and then we find out later he didnt do it...doesnt that mean we shouldnt lock people up?

In His arms.

Sad MM, truly sad.

TMCM

That it is. And the anguish would be more than I could bear. But just because mistake was made, doesnt mean the whle system needs to be scrapped. Just as when the men under me made a mistake, which usually means someone loses their life...doesnt mean we just give up and go home. We learn...and we do better next time.

This also does mean that I want the SOB that screwed up to lose his job and to possibly face charges. Remember, I am all for people receiving the consequences of their actions.

In His arms.

After at looking on all sides of the fences and seeing the misery not matter what the decision, it w/b best if there were no reason for murders. Accidents are a different story that is why even in biblical times, murder vs manslaughter carrie different penalities.

People constantly bring up injustice. The whole process is unjust. The act of taking a life and reason to have to take a life..... eye for an eye, soul for a soul, etc. It will never feel right so why r u all trying to find logic in murder? Like the WS and the A, there is no logic in taking another's life. Neither is there logic in suicide. They are both disrespectful acts with varying reasons none of which truly justify the other.

Think we are spending too much time on the details. That's how laywers screw up justice. In some cases, the laywers get paid to distract justice. Not all but enough. Their repuation preceedes them.

So when one takes a life, he/she should pay with their life. Simple plan, worked before. All the statistic people can say that punishment like the death penalty doesn't deter..... really? hm..... let's find out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I respect life to know that one who is disrespectful doesn't deserve to encroach upon the live's of others. I also respect the LifeGiver who set those rules for our benefit. Just wish these dumb humans and their bad influences would either get on the pot or go back to their mothership.

JMHO,
L.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. As long as the person lives, they can pursue all legal means at their disposal to seek justice if they consider themselves wrongly imprisoned. People who are wrongly imprisoned have been the victim of injustice. But in many cases they are able to seek recourse later and be released...and possibly restored to some extent.

If we put that same person to death, then, through earnest effort, discover the man was innocent...how can he ever be restored? Execution is permanent...irreversible.

While man can clearly hasten a prisoner's death, he can do nothing to delay his natural death. The best we can do is give him the time God gives him on this earth to prove his innocence. I wold prefer we didn't deny him that opportunity by executing him.

Let me ask you something about the scriptures you've been discussing...

Do you think that Jesus, Paul and others acknowledging the cultural conditions of the time equate to them approving of it? Your example of the adulterous woman...in my mind...completely refutes the death penalty. He was telling the Jews that none of them were qualified to judge this woman in that way. I'm sure they represented the "government established by God". Do we think we have become better judges?

In that case, why did we ever abolish slavery? Paul did encourage slaves to obey their masters...therefore, slavery is ok...right?

Low Orbit - doesn't it seem as though you (and others arguing against the death penalty) are arguing for "perfection" in our criminal justice system. "Perfection" is NOT the standard, "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard.

There are MANY "mitigating circumstances" that are brought up to "avoid" the death penalty even in the face of "guilt." Those who receive the death penalty meet the "level" of requirement for imposition of that penalty. THEN we go through YEARS and YEARS of, in most cases, frivolous delaying "appeals" as in Paul's "appeal to Caesar." At some point, "the buck stops here." That point is the government "we the people" have instituted and granted authority to act on our collective behalf IS acting "in our place" so that we don't have anarchy and vigilanteism. The idea of "swift and certain" imposition of the penalty has given way to the idea that if we "wait long enough," the guilty person may change and that "change" negates the need for consequences of their prior actions. In other words, "forgiveness MEANS forgetting and not holding them accountable for their choices." Good luck. Even even Christians who are "Forgiven" and have been pardoned from eternal death do NOT escape the penalty of sin in this life....we DO still physically die. For Tookie's sake, I sincerely hope he DID find Christ as his Savior before he ended his existence in THIS life. But there MANY who never will and who will "Die Twice," temporally and life without parole in eternity in a place where "death" might well seem much more 'attractive.'

How many child molesters are "let out of prison" for various reasons only to commit MORE crimes that affect the lives, permanently, of more innocent "good people?" Could someone have been convicted of such a crime "by mistake" and was really innocent themselves? "Anything" is possible, but it's extremely unlikely. So we allow for the "possibility" that more innocent people get hurt simply to preserve the "chance" that someone might have been convicted and sentence incorrectly?

Can an "innocent person" be executed? It's not outside the realm of "possibility," but at what cost do we throw out "the punishment fits the crime?" To exact the "life without parole" alternative sounds nice, but those who will stop and think about it will realize that there are NO guarantees that the guilty will not later be set free. We have a "bleeding heart" mentality a lot of the time and resort to "justifications" like "cruel and unusual punishment" because many of us DO have a conscience and do have a "caring heart" (unlike the criminal himself/herself). That's the same argument that opponents of the death penalty use all the time, they just "extend it" to then cover the "cruel and unusual" punishment of "life without parole in a small cage and at hard labor." "After all, can't they be rehabilitated?"

No, they become institutionalized and they go to "criminal behavior college" and learn how to NOT value "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I lived in the area of Richard Speck, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer....shining examples of people who could be "Rehabiliated." What is the point of tolerating EVIL (as they personified) to "exist," isolated, but still among us and with the potential to "get out" legally or illegally?

The French tried something like this idea of "life without parole," and the movie Papillon showed a bit about what such "cruel and unusual" punishment could be like as an alternative to "the penalty fits the crime." For me, the "alternative" would be such an "island" where escape meant death anyway. (Let's say in the middle of some ocean or in the middle of Antarctica)

Let me give you the most direct "evidence" that I can about God's perspective on the reality of unrepentant evil and the exacting of a death penalty as both a "punishment of evil" and as a "warning to others" to not engage in evil themselves.

God "negotiated" with Abraham to "commute" the sentence that had already been "handed down" (i.e. the analagous death sentence of a jury based upon the evidence). In effect, here was the "appeal process" that argued for mitigating circumstances. God granted an ever smaller amount of "good people" (or the possible "later to be found innocent") to be sufficient for him to "stay the execution" of the decision of the court. Yet, when all was said and done, only Lot and his family were found "savable" and they were ordered to LEAVE the cesspool they were surrounded by. It had gotten so bad that not one prison existed for the perpetrators of the crimes....the "inmates had taken over not only the prison but the 'country' as well," and the "good people" were now living as prisoners due to a breakdown of the law, both moral and civil.

So the Death Penalty was carried out and Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist. The "warning" has been ignored and the inmates are again running rampant with "we are normal" and the rest of you can just "deal with it" even when we are "in your face with our extreme views."

When the "penalty" for actions, when the consequences of our choices are removed, humans will (as a collective society) devolve to the basest extreme and use the excuse of "don't judge me!, I am entitled to do as I please!"

The "godfearing," the "good people," the "trying to live by the Golden Rule people," are MANIPULATED by the wrongdoers and those who cannot see the effects of "tolerating" bad behavior or the effects of NOT exacting the "extreme punishment" for heinous crimes into LOWERING the standards by which we live in a society. Each time the "rung" gets lowered we "Feel Good" about how tolerant we are. But at some point the "scales tip," and the "Good People" become the minority and have no "rights" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," because the "evil doers" take control and impose THEIR morals and standards on everyone else. It is Humanism carried to it's end.

When there are NO immutable standards, humans are EXPERT at finding "reasons" to do or allow anything.

THE "standard" is God's judgment. SIN exists whether we want to accept that or not. The human heart IS sinful and will follow sin if left to it's own. It is, in essence, little different that the "peaceniks" who enjoy the protections of our society while denegrating our govenment and military for protecting those rights and giving ALL of us the right to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness." They don't like the "messiness" of war and "policing activities" because "some innocents" might get caught up with the guilty." So the alternative is to surrender and do nothing. Were is NOT for those "we the people" have put in place to "Do the hard things," NONE of us could enjoy the freedoms we have, especially the right to disagree and to voice that disagreement. Can there be "collateral damage" while protecting the freedoms? Sure. And we will regret that. But SURRENDER is not a viable alternative. Sometimes we simply have to "do the hard things" even though they might not be "pleasant" or might "offend our sensibilities."

In a "Utopia" there would be no need for prisons or the death penalty. That won't happen until God imposes the death penalty on all unbelievers and makes a new world devoid of sin for all who are judged "good" because of the actions of the ONE innocent man who was put to death on our behalf. In the meantime, we pray that the governments we put in place will be protectors of the innocent and "exacters of punishment" on the guilty so that we don't have to do it individually.

It's really early so maybe my eyes just aren't open wide enough to read properly but are you suggesting that all non-believers should be caught and given the death penalty?!

I must be reading this wrong...


Mys

Your friendly, but really frightened, neighborhood athiest

Comments to Mimi and FH on my thread.

Georgia

myschae - You ARE reading this wrong. Either that, or you looking to make an argument where none exists.

Non-believers are already living under a "death penalty." "For the wages of sin is death." The lie that Satan perpetrated on Eve is alive and well today.

Thank God that He is patient and loving and willing to "give until we die" to repent of our sins and to accept His provision for our salvation.

BUT, there will be time when all that is "ended." It's called the "Second Coming of Christ" and the Judgment."

The "old" will be destroyed and God will make a "new" creation, and will "impose" His sovereign will upon all. Sin and death for His children will be banished from existance.

THAT is what I was referring to.

God bless.

Myschae, there is nothing to be worried about. Until they come after you with torches anyway.

HAve a great day!

Nope...only for PERFECTION when deciding to take another human being's life.

Where we differ...I don't believe that we have the authority or capability to judge when we should deliberately take another human being's life when there other effective alternatives at our disposal.

I don't know how God view's killing in war and self defense. I acknowledge that those may be cases where it is unavoidable.

I do believe, from the entire theme of scripture and evidence of the SPirit in people's lives, that God values human life beyond our comprehension.

I do believe it is supreme arrogance to believe we have the authority to act as His agent in ending a human life.

Many of the Biblical examples that you and MM have provided were examples of where God commanded that life be ended. God can do this, because He is God...He alone has that right because we know His judgement is perfect.

I think we say "We will be like God" when we say that we have the authority to terminate a life when other alternative are available.

So here's a question...why would execution be a permissable part of levitical law, yet should not be for us today?

Answer: 1) The Ten Commandments appear to be the ONLY Law written by the hand of God Himself...there is no guidance to execute in those. Levitical direction was an attempt by the Levite priests to interpret a workable system in the middle of the desert in the context of their own society. In addition, they had Moses to discuss these issues directly with God.

2) We are technologically developed society with the capability of implementing practical alternatives to execution. I believe the Romans were technologically advanced enough to have implemented the same type of practical solutions if they had so chosen.

So, In light of all our discussion...I would be pro-execution under ONE circumstance and ONE only:

God, Himself specifically directs the execution of an individual.

He is the ONLY One I trust to make that kind of decision.

Low

Perhaps we should pick up on His example...

BTW, I LOVE the idea of "devil's island" type prisons, but without the severe cruelty...but not a country club either.

Just because I don't advocate execution, doesn't mean that I don't think criminals should be appropriately punished.

Would be a good use of land in Antarctica or Central Australia.

Interesting considering that the Apostle Paul was a persecutor of Christians before his conversion.


Paul, by his own admission, was an accessory to the murder of Stephen. If Paul were here today in one of the death penalty States, he would have been arrested, convicted, sentenced to death and be on death row at this very minute, wouldn't he?

TMCM

No, I'm not trying to create an argument. I will say that I've read some of your comments about Christianity, believing in Jesus Christ (on another thread) and faith and I'm really perplexed by much of what you say. That's why I posted it as a question. I don't assume that's what you meant, I'm just saying that's what it sounded like to me but that just didn't 'feel' true so I asked for clarification. I apologize for offending you, if I did ( I tried to ask respectfully. )


This whole thread has been about punishement and consequences and the state's right to carry those out. If the consequence of non-belief is death, who should carry that out? Are you expecting God to tell you to kill unbelievers some day? Isn't that what all those passages in the Bible wiping out entire cities were about? Is it expected that will happen again?


I don't mean to be provocative but I'll just say this. This God you describe sounds anything but loving or particularly patient to me. In fact, he sounds worse than anything I've heard about the other side! All this talk about wiping out entire cities... leveling things... punishing people with eternal torment, etc. How do you manage to reconclie ANY of that with LOVE?!

Are you really sure that the things you've been told are about the "LOVING" god?

I say this as a non-Christian who is relatively unschooled in the Bible and all that. I keep hearing about this 'loving' god, but I haven't heard anything very loving about him. Everytime someone trys to describe the way he 'loves' it's about how he sends people (his own son) into torture and death as an act of love. Why didn't he come Himself instead of sending someone else.. someone weaker and more vulnerable?

I don't know, Forever Hers, I do respect that you have your beliefs and that you have a right to them. I understand that you are a strong advocate for Christianity and I'm not trying to annoy or harrass you. I won't continue unless you're interested in discussing this but I just want to give you an outside (Christianity) perspective on what the things you say sound like.

One thing on the other thread you said was that you shouldn't listen to what you think or what you feel.. you should recognize God's judgement on what's right and wrong. But, how can you have faith or even belief without thinking? I've always understood that you can't just say "Ok, fine, I'll let Jesus be my savior" without really believing it's true. (Which makes sense because presumably, if there is a God, then he'd know you were scamming him.) So, how do you not follow your heart? Where do you find belief without either rationalization or feeling? In fact, my understanding is that I could live a perfect life according to the 'rules' but if I don't have belief, none of it matters anyway.

You also said to answer the question on whether or not Jesus Christ was who he said he was. I'm not even convinced the man lived! Where do you go to find actual proof that there ever was such a man let alone that he said he was God? I suppose there's the Bible, but I was hoping for something outside the understandable bias. For example, some other type of historical document. Maybe he was just an idea... like a story in a book. Hercules, for example, was written about widely but I don't believe he was the son of Zeus and once re-routed a river to clean out some stables. Maybe Jesus was a fictional character used to illustrate a moral story of the time?

Anyway, I don't suppose this board needs another "Is there a God?" thread and I'm truly sorry for threadjacking. I missed out on the other thread because I had to study for finals. I suppose if I could convey just one thing, it's that not everyone believes what you do .. and not because we're a bunch of selfish people who don't like doing nice things for anyone. I care about people. I try to be a good person (by what I think most people, even most Christians would consider good.) But, when I think about all the things I've heard about Christianity, they're all so jumbled, muddled, and frankly a lot of it just doesn't sound right to me that I can't imagine having faith in a God that designed that system. And, without faith, I'm told not to even bother. So, I seek understanding... but I haven't found it yet.

More than anything else, I'm saddened and occasionally truly uneasy at the charges that seem to be leveled against those of us who haven't chosen Christianity. It sounds as though you think we all really believe but just want to be contrary. It's not true in my case! I think it would be nice to believe some of it.. heck who wouldn't want eternal paradise and to meet up with eveyrone after you die? And yet, I search my heart for belief and it is NOT there. I won't lie about it. Or, even worse, it sounds as though you think we're all sitting around plotting how to deprive you of your beliefs or make you act in ways that are contrary to what you believe God would have you do. Let me assure you that I want nothing of the sort. I can respect the comfort you say your religion brings you and marvel at the wonderful things you say it provides. I just don't understand how any of that can happen given the way you describe it to me ... but who said I have to understand or that I ever will?

I leave you in peace and with best wishes,

Mys

Mojodiva

Heh. Thanks for that, you made me smile. Maybe when they round us up we can meet and swap stories. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

Aphelion,
I know I could have fought the annulment - but it said right in the paperwork I received that I would have to go to a trial almost - have to give testimony and listen to the other testimony against me - by this time I was so hurt and angry my daughter asked me not too - she said you do know Dad is going to make this all your fault. And she said I don't want you to re live it all over again so I just didn't. But it gets to the point with the Catholic Church that whoever has the most money wins. I might have been able to stop the annulment but the final process would have cost me $1,000 - and it still could have been annuled - so instead of an annulment for $1,000 it would have given the church $2,000. I know I am well rid of my ex - I do understand that. I received a dissolution of the validity of my marriage. Ok - so legally my children aren't ******** but if my marriage in the eyes of the church wasn't valid then how can their births not be considered illegitimate?

Good, I was hoping it would.

I'll bring the sticks and marshmallows!