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What do y'all think of this? This past Saturday I went to a little area of town that has a lot of little shops with all kinds of crafts, etc. in them. It's an old part of town and the homes are all really cute little places and they dress up the whole "town" for Christmas with lights, Santas, angels, anything "Christmasy." My friend and I noticed that several of the shops were empty or for lease. We commented on this several times during the day. One of the shopowners told us that a Muslim group sued the whole "town" because they were offended by all the Christian signs of the season. Unfortunately, hiring attorneys and such put some of the places out of business. The Muslim group apparently lost their case because the town was dressed up for Christmas as usual.
I'd love to hear all comments. Well, I would hope they lost their case! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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So that means Thou Shalt not commit adultery" may not apply now, based on today's views?? I still think it is subject to the same careful, prayerful consideration. I think you chose one that most Christians tend to be in agreement that it's still quite applicable. In general I think we've concluded that the Ten Commandments are all quite applicable in that they give us direct insight into God's attitude toward some very basic human tendencies. However, I don't think I'm very particular about trimming the edges of my beard and wearing mixed fabric. The fact that we know that rabbits do not chew their cud does not necessarily mean that scripture has no value, or is even errant. It means that AT THAT TIME, IN THAT CULTURE those people believed that rabbits chewed their cud. The principle and Spirit behind what is being communicated is of greater importance. We cannot afford to do a sloppy job of doing our best to understand it's meaning in the context of time and culture. Otherwise, we find ourselves stoning adulterers and unruly children.
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Otherwise, we find ourselves stoning adulterers and unruly children. Is there a problem with that? Oopppsss, did I say that out loud?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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The woman who has charge of his "remains" is planning a HUGE funeral in Los Angeles ... and she has the gall to compare this murdering scum-bag (who started one of the most lethal street gangs in history, Crips) to one of history's greats!!!!! .... she has compared Tookie to (get this) Rosa Parks Despite my feelings about the death penalty...this truly is disgusting.
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Back to Tookie ....
The woman who has charge of his "remains" is planning a HUGE funeral in Los Angeles ... and she has the gall to compare this murdering scum-bag (who started one of the most lethal street gangs in history, Crips) to one of history's greats!!!!! .... she has compared Tookie to (get this) Rosa Parks
disgusting True Pep, goes to show evil men will grow worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is a "bigger message" though with his execution. A message to all the the gangs, young and old...of what will happen if they choose to kill! Hopefully many will heed that message. Lady
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LowOrbit,
I do believe that the Bible plus consultation with the Holy Spirit is the only way for a Christian to understand God's will in any circumstance. I also believe that there are commands by Jesus and God in the Bible that really need no thought, nor interpretation. Jesus was very careful to say when He was speaking in parables, and when He was being literal. Most of what is in the Bible is not that hard to discern for the Christian.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Otherwise, we find ourselves stoning adulterers and unruly children.
Is there a problem with that?
Oopppsss, did I say that out loud?!?!
Yep...I heard it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by ladysheep; 12/14/05 05:24 PM.
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Suicide falls up there with psychological issues....and the government has no criminal policy on it. I realize there are religious consequences for taking your own life, however, my views about the death penaltly and abortion have nothing to do with morality or religion - mainly because I believe religion should not be a part of our government. Whistles75 - Suffice it to say that "understanding" some point or another is NOT the same thing as agreeing with it, so I understand what you are saying. So now comes the big "however," However, while we can argue, and probably agree, that from a "normal" standpoint, people who commit suicide and people who murder others are probably dealing with some sort of "psychological" issue. But that isn't the issue. The issue in those sorts of cases is "do they know the difference between right and wrong?" Then, the next question is WHO sets the given standard for "right and wrong?" Here's something else to think about. "Religion" IS a part of government whether or not one wants to call it that. "Secular Humanism," or "Atheism," or whatever "belief structure" IS a "religion." But usually when people say they don't want "religion in government," them mean the Christian religion. For me, it's more basic, in that I believe in our Constitution which prevents a "State Authorized Religion" (which would be inclusive of all "religions") as well as any prohibition against the free excercise of a religion IN public or private. So when you say, " my views about the death penaltly and abortion have nothing to do with morality or religion," you are trying to split a hair that can't be split. It DOES have everything to do with one's value and belief system, and THAT is a "religious" stand on what you think is Moral and Ethical for you. Morals and Ethics can be different from a "given religion," but they are A religion anyway.
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Putting all 'guessing' aside...... if someone did commit a henious crime, murdered without regret, not repentant, showed no remorse..... what should happen:
Legally:
Morally:
L.
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Putting all 'guessing' aside...... if someone did commit a henious crime, murdered without regret, not repentant, showed no remorse..... what should happen:
Legally:
Morally: Why should these two be different? My answer to both: Life imprisonment without chance of parole.
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I also believe that there are commands by Jesus and God in the Bible that really need no thought, nor interpretation. The very act of reading the words on the page of your Bible NECESSARILY requires you to engage thought and interpretation. It is impossible to do otherwise. As a soldier, I'm sure you're very aware of how variations in interpretation of even simple communications can get people killed. Those words create unique impressions for every individual. The Spirit helps me get the meaning He wants me to from them...which could be very different from what He wants you to get. I'm sure you've had conversations with your kids..."Go clean your room!" and they go do what THEY think is cleaning their room...but is not the idea you had in mind. We all suffer from that same phenomenon when we read scripture. Jesus said "Love your neighbor" Seems pretty simple, doesn't it? But we know the original Greek didn't read exactly the same. There were many words that would equate to "love" in Greek. If I were to take these words at face value...I could do a lot of different thing with them. Another example from my daughter's driver's ed days... To her, a "Yield" sign meant nothing more than "slow down"...sort of a diluted STOP sign. We had a couple of near altercations where I had to explain that "Yield" means the oncoming traffic has the right of way and you do whatever you need to to allow them that. Low
Last edited by LowOrbit; 12/15/05 07:55 AM.
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Another example from my daughter's driver's ed days... To her, a "Yield" sign meant nothing more than "slow down"...sort of a diluted STOP sign. We had a couple of near altercations where I had to explain that "Yield" means the oncoming traffic has the right of way and you do whatever you need to to allow them that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> gotta love this story
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I also believe that there are commands by Jesus and God in the Bible that really need no thought, nor interpretation. The very act of reading the words on the page of your Bible NECESSARILY requires you to engage thought and interpretation. It is impossible to do otherwise. As a soldier, I'm sure you're very aware of how variations in interpretation of even simple communications can get people killed. Those words create unique impressions for every individual. The Spirit helps me get the meaning He wants me to from them...which could be very different from what He wants you to get. I'm sure you've had conversations with your kids..."Go clean your room!" and they go do what THEY think is cleaning their room...but is not the idea you had in mind. We all suffer from that same phenomenon when we read scripture. Jesus said "Love your neighbor" Seems pretty simple, doesn't it? But we know the original Greek didn't read exactly the same. There were many words that would equate to "love" in Greek. If I were to take these words at face value...I could do a lot of different thing with them. Another example from my daughter's driver's ed days... To her, a "Yield" sign meant nothing more than "slow down"...sort of a diluted STOP sign. We had a couple of near altercations where I had to explain that "Yield" means the oncoming traffic has the right of way and you do whatever you need to to allow them that. Low All true. But as a solider, I know if I receive an order to ceasefire...that means to stop shooting. I dont need to interpret it. It means stop firing. With marriage, God says no man should tear apart what He has put together, that is very plain, very simple. You cant get lost in the interpretation. It means dont do it. When God says thou shalt not steal, that means what it says. You should not take something that does not belong to you. Where is the interpretation there? What else do I need to know? God says in Malachi "I hate divorce." Is that clear? Do we know how God feels about divorce? Maybe He only meant He hated divorce in the old days. Maybe He is more tolerant of it now. Maybe He doesnt HATE divorce anymore...maybe He just finds it to be unfortunate. Of course, I was being a little sarcastic there. Of course, God hates divorce still today. How do I know? Because He also says in Malachi that He is the same always, that He never changes. People like to say that the God of the Old Testament is different from the God of the New Testament. As if God aged some and became a lovable little grandpa! No, He is the same as He always was. The same God that flooded the Earth and killed every living being except what was on the Ark, is the same God that said "Love thy neighbor." I do believe that we must use the Holy Spirit to help interpret the Bible in a given situation and how to apply it. But I dont believe that God built this book to be a puzzle. It is a love letter from Him, a guide for life. His guide for how to follow Him and how to live the life He wants us to lead. As Just Learning always says...in the end, with any problem or issue in life, there really comes down to be only one right choice. If you study, pray and listen...that right answer will always present itself. Always! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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MM:
But what about THOU SHALT NOT KILL...
I guess you are saying an EXECUTION IS NOT KILLING but, you see, I do not interpret it that way...
That COMMANDMENT seems VERY CLEAR AND SUCCINCT TO ME..no IF, ANDS or BUTS in it...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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MM:
But what about THOU SHALT NOT KILL...
I guess you are saying an EXECUTION IS NOT KILLING but, you see, I do not interpret it that way...
That COMMANDMENT seems VERY CLEAR AND SUCCINCT TO ME..no IF, ANDS or BUTS in it... It is very clear. It says "Thou Shalt not Kill." But the problem is that from the original language, it doesnt mean the word kill...it means murder. When it was put into the English language, is was written as "kill." But that is not what was originally written or intended. Otherwise, you would have no justification to kill someone when they were trying to kill you in your home. No right to self-defense. it also means that God broke His own law, which is NOT possible. That would make Him unholy and unjust!! His law not only applies to us, it applies to Him also. So, what the Bible says is Thou Shalt not Murder. That is entirely different than Thou Shalt not Kill. Remember, anyone can take the Bible and rewrite it to say anythign they want. There is a group out there that has written that God is not a He, but a She. Now, if you read that Bible, you would believe that God was a female person. not so. That is why every Christian needs to study their Bible, but also study it by studying the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament). Some words do not translate well from those languages to ours. That is why you need to get the true meaning of those words. Now, I know Low Orbit will say "See, that is what I meant. We need to interpret." That is not what I have been saying. When I say most doesnt need interpretation, it means when you read the text correctly, in the way it was originally written, it is pretty clear cut what God's will is. Where the interpretation would come in is how to apply that to a specific life challenge. Let me give you a secular example. Our Constitution has a Second Amendment that says that the Right to Bear Arms belongs to the militia. So, people today, using the definition of today that the militia means National Guard, say that the individual does not have the right to bear arms. But that is hogwash!! In order to understand what the Amendment means, we must understand what they wrote. And in order to understand what they wrote, we must understand what the words meant then. In the 1700s, the word militia meant "every male citizen." It wasnt the Army...it was every male citizen The same goes with any document. We must know what the author wrote, not what our interpretation is. We cant make it up as we go along. As I said, God was very clear. "I hate divorce." "Thou Shalt not Steal." "Thous shalt not Murder." "What I bring together, let no man turn asunder." All very clear what His intentions were and still are. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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MM:
But what about THOU SHALT NOT KILL...
I guess you are saying an EXECUTION IS NOT KILLING but, you see, I do not interpret it that way...
That COMMANDMENT seems VERY CLEAR AND SUCCINCT TO ME..no IF, ANDS or BUTS in it... The exact translation of the commandment is not "kill", but "murder". A subtle, but often lost difference.
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So why was the translation stated as Thou shalt not KILL..
I only said this because you quoted other commandments..
Is this the only commandment for which the interpretation is WRONG...
I just get concerned that there is some RATIONALIZATION going on...
Why would the Bible be written so that it is not CLEAR?
What about people that are not able to read the different translations?
Some folks, for many different reasons, would not have that opportunity...
JUST WONDERING....
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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When it was put into the English language, is was written as "kill." But that is not what was originally written or intended. How do you know this? So why didn't the ENGLISH TRANSLATION state MURDER if that is what is meant? Somebody needs to write a translation that states this then without having to refer back to OLD HEBREW which few people will actually read... I have about four or more translations of the bible...none state MURDER..not one...
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/15/05 12:41 PM.
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if I receive an order to ceasefire...that means to stop shooting. I dont need to interpret it. It means stop firing. Thank you, MM...you just made my point for me. ceasefire=stop firing THAT is an interpretation. You know from training that it means to stop firing your weapon and nothing else. Now here's another one that a seasoned sailor might think would be a no brainer..."Ease the sheets!" What could that possibly mean? Even read correctly in the language it was written, it requires study to understand its context in the culture. How might I apply this? Well, I don't own a sailboat and I'm not a sailor...so...might not have a lot of meaning for me. In the same way, I am not an Israelite wandering around in the desert either. You interpret everything you sense...no exceptions. And the potential ALWAYS exists for people to interpret differently. No, it's not always rocket science, but it's not always as self-evident as you claim it to be either. If it was...we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be obvious to all that you are correct... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Low
Last edited by LowOrbit; 12/15/05 01:48 PM.
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loosen the line holding the sail
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