On saying whether I am on a higher spiritual level than another...I cannot say that. Could FH come to me (and he has in the past) and say "Hey Mortarman, I think you may not have this quite correct. Here is what Scripture says." And I find out he was right?? Sure ,that can happen to all of us. I have written that several times to you Mimi. Do I believe that in THIS INSTANCE that you are misinterpreting Scripture? Yes I do. Does that mean I am higher than you or always right? No that doesnt. You are taking this way to personally, Mimi. Liek I said, if you Mimi came to me tomorrow on an issue and said "Mortarman, you are not correct about some discussion we are having" andthen we reason together and go to Scripture and pray, and then I find out that you were correct, did that make me wrong. Absolutely! Does that make you higher than me spiritually or more holy than me? Nope. Like I said, we can all be wrong. Even FH and I (I know...hard to believe...just kidding!). Please do not take this personally. we have both provided you with Scriptural basis of what God intends with governments and executions. I really have tried to stay away from my personal beliefs, except where I have noted them. I have tried to stay with Scripture, with what the original text says. Not what some commentator, or pastor has said. Again, please do not take this personally. We all are in varied parts of our walk. There are things I learn everyday from my fellow Christians, things where I was wrong in my beliefs. It doesnt mean they are playing holier-than-thou. As a matter of fact, I thank them for showing me the truth.


No, not all follow God. This is true. But God does His will through them anyway, whether they are following Him or not! God did give the right of governments to rule, which means that they have the right to make laws and to punish law breakers. he at times has specifically told certain governments to punish certain people or certain kinds of law breakers. And guess what? He has never rescinded that.

He has spoken about never taking vengeance into your own hands.

Look, there are whole sections in the New Testament about how the church is to judge and punish believers. That these men and women are to get together, weigh the evidence, pray...and make judgments. Can they make mistakes? Sure! But Jesus said that wherever two or more gather in MY name, thus I will be there. Be there for what, prayer? That passage is in context of judgment. He will be there to judge those believers the church deems guilty. He then says whatever the church binds or looses on Earth, He will bind or loose in Heaven. What does that mean? It means that He will accept the ruling of the church (as long as they were following Him) and the verdict made by those deacons or church members will be made as if God had made the decision all by Himself.

God works thru governments in the same way. FH and others have put those passages on here. He says that He institutes governments, that they are subject to Him. Even though He knew that many of these governments would be made up of people that do not follow Him. Jesus even told Pilate that he would not be where He was if God had not put Him there. Piulate ordered the killing of His Son. Does that mean that God ordered the killing of His Son? Absolutely not! His Son was murdered...and God is not capable of murder! Pilate and the others involved are held responsible for His death. hat is why Jesus asked God to forgive them because they had no idea what they were doing.

Jesus was executed by a government that God ordained. I knwo many times, that sounds like it cant be possible. But it is. God gives sinful man freewill. He will allow us to follow Him or not follow Him. And when we dont follow Him, our actions will be allowed. But then they will be judged.

Again this is why I cringe for my country. We have allowed the whole scale slaughter of millions of innocent children, we have actively tried to remove God from our schools and places of government. God instituted those governments...and now we want Him out of them. So, He will eventually run out of patience with the United States unless we repent. And He will judge this nation rather harshly!

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Like Low, I think I've said enough about this for right now.

I have really appreciated the discussion and may have more to say later...

I sense that you have strong feelings about this...like lots of other Americans...I read that 70% of the population is supportive of the death penalty...

Really, it's not all that important to ME right now...

I just hope and pray none us this has to touch us personally like INFIDELITY...

I still say that if my husband or one of my sons, murders someone, even admittedly, I would never be supportive of him being executed...

If my husband or one of my sons was murdered, it very well might be a different story...

However, as of now, I FEEL like I would want the person to have a sentence of LIFE IMPRISONMENT...because I think I would feel like a HYPOCRIT....

That's just me...

Like you said, I accept and trust in Jesus as my personal savior..

It is in HIM that I TRUST AND BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH....


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No, I am saying we CAN know God. Yes, He is so vast that I can never know Him fully (not until I get to Heaven). But I can know Him. I can know what He is like, what makes Him tick. I can know His nature. I can definitely know what He has said about Himself.


He maintains these things not by hiding Himself...He maintains thes things because He IS awesome, He IS powerful. The more we know about Him, the more awesome He becomes to us.


Of course! Let me ask you a question. How can you trust God if you dont know that He is trustworthy? And if you know He is trustworthy, then you know something about God. And that is just ONE part about Him that you and I know. Can we know more? Sure!


God is not a God that hides from us. He WANTS us to know Him! He wants a relationship with us. He wants us to love Him. The more we know Him, the more we will love and reverence Him. That is what He wants.


I have no faith in man. I dont! I have no faith in my pastor, or my wife, or my children, or my President. All have and will disappoint me to varied degrees. I have faith in the Lord...who has power over those officials.

How in the world do you think I did this with my wife cheating? Because she had some redeeming quality or value that made me want to go thru He!! for her? Pulease!! She was betraying me and destroying my family. She was sleeping around with the Troll. What she deserved...what Mortarman wanted...was to walk away and leave her to her mess. I had no faith in my wife, in Steve Harley, in MB. None of them are powerful enough to resist the Devil. All of man put together is still less powerful than Satan!

But I did not need to have faith in SH or MB. I did not have to have faith in my wife. Jesus is on the throne. He is in charge. He made promises to me.

And He has made promises to us about governments, about punishment, about even executions. And even about those that do not do his will and do evil things. I have faith in Him...not in man.

In His arms.

Agreed!!

Mojodiva, and your point is???

You are ripping verses out of context and I have to wonder "For what purpose?"

You seem to be trying to say that God is the author of evil, capricious in what He does. But if that is the case that you are arguing or implying, you sorely do not understand the Scripture or what is being said in these passages.

These verses you plucked out of context are a WARNING to the people of Israel. READ then entire 30th chapter of Deuteronomy for the complete context and the complete message. God acknowledges that both "good" and "evil" exist and that He stands ready to shower "good" upon His people, but the CHOICE is up to each individual.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life {emphasis added}, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORd thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unot him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unot they fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. (Deuteronomy 30:15-20 KJV)

You also quoted Isaiah 45:7 to apparantly "indict" God, yet you fail to examine both the context and the meaning of the word translated here as "evil." "Evil days" ARE distressing days.

So let's look at the New International Version, that translates the original into "modern" English to aid in our understanding even if we are not Greek and Hebrew scholars (which I am not, as an example).

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. ...This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curses. Now choose life,.... (Deuteronomy 30:15, 19a NIV)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 NIV)

God IS sovereign and God IS in control and NOTHING happens without His allowing it to happen....for HIS purposes. What God calls US to do is to CHOOSE, and there are consequences that go with our choosing that is of our "own making." Yet we want to "blame God" for the bad things that happen in our lives because we "choose poorly" sometimes.

For this is what the LORD says - he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited - he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
19 I hve not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendents, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right. (Isaiah 45:18-19 NIV emphasis added)

God IS the STANDARD and the MEASURE. It is we humans who CHOOSE for, or against, God. HE is the Potter, and we are are the Potsherds.

Mimi, Mortarman said the following to you that I endorse:

If you want to spend more time on the Government being empowered by God to act "on our behalf" and "on God's behalf" in issues like Capital Punishment, we can do so.

But understand that I don't take offense if you believe in NO Capital Punishment for any reason. I would not take offense anymore than I would if you chose to be a vegetarian, or a teetotaler, or something else because you chose to do so. God HAS NOT said that someone MUST be put to death, but He has granted that authority to Governments to decide in that area, relieving individuals from having to seek vengeance on someone themselves. By the same token, we don't seek to "impose" our choice on the government or on fellow believers. We can state our case, and after that, it is up to each individual to CHOOSE what they believe is in accord with God's commands. That holds even for those who choose to reject God and to reject Jesus Christ. It will not change the truth that God IS in control and God delegates authority to whomever He chooses, while simultaneously holding us ALL accountable for OUR choices for ourselves and our choices for others as we "act on God's behalf" and according to His commands.

Please don't take offense at this discussion. If I have offended you, please accept my apology. NOT ONE OF US is "better than" another. We are all saved by the GRACE of God and NOT by any actions of our own.

What DOES intrigue me is the number of people who are anti-death penalty but PRO killing of babies that have not been born yet. I find it interesting that about the only argument brought up in favor of abortion is "no one can tell me what to do with MY body!!" The irony is amazing.

How about celebacy until married?
How about "Thou shalt NOT murder?"
How about "This is love, to obey God's commands."


God bless.

Thank you, FOREVER..I CAN BUY THIS!!..Some MEETING OF THE MINDS...

I really have taken not offense at any of this discussion..

Has given me the opportunity to PRACTICE CONFLICT ACCEPTANCE as opposed to CONFLICT AVOIDANCE....

I highly respect and value your and MORTARMAN..

I have learned LOTS from you BOTH...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(((((Mimi)))))

I also have to admit to being curious, though I've not said much about it, as to what it was that your church did, or as I understand it, didn't do that offended you enough that you would consider Roman Catholicism.

It is very unfortunate that churches are made up of imperfect people, because NOT doing God's will is often hurtful to others. I've "been there and felt that" too at times and it does hurt.

One of the major reasons my wife and I attend a different church than the one we were members of is because they did little to support me, and nothing to confront my wife in a Matthew 18: 15-20 sort of obedience, following "d-day." NOT upholding church discipline is as bad as applying it with the "intent" to punish someone and to make those entrusted with confronting a sinner in love feel "superior" and "sinless" themselves.

So if you'd care to share what happened sometime, here or via email, I'd love to know what got you so down that you'd consider a move to something that might cause greater problems in your life in the long run.

God bless.

FH- not taken out of context at all. They are straight from Tenach. They are the words of God. You can argue with Him.

My take,

No death penalty here in Michigan. It's in our State Constitution. If Tookie lived here in Michigan then none of us would have wasted a single brain cell learning his name or debating his fate. He could rot in jail and maybe get out someday as an old man but that would all happen behind the scenes...no notariety, no fame.

IMO, the death penalty has no function as a deterent, is a hallow form of vengence, and is not absolutely guaranteed to even represent justice.

Meanwhile our sensationalist media feeds on the frenzy and makes these convicts into victims. They replay and debate the facts of the case utilizing whatever images of the murder or crime scenes they can find. Amazingly, the more shocking the story and images available the more airtime the "victim/convict's" story gets despite the "credentials" of the appeals and clemency petitions.

IMO, the world is uncivilized enough. For the deluded masses (not you guys who are carrying on a honest, intelligent debate) but for the deluded masses whom believe we are the most civilized country in the world to continue, let alone escalate, the rate at which we utilize Capital Punishment, is a disgrace.

Mr. Wondering


P.S. - Despite the fact that it is the "state" carrying out the executing, somewhere along the line there are individuals. Somebodies son, daughter, father, uncle must punch in for work and carry out their orders (edited to "job assignement"). The must turn on the electricity, shoot the gun, switch on the gas, bind the doomed. It is their duty (edited to "JOB"). I could not do it and would not want my child to have to do it either. Who would want to do that???

mojodiva - uh huh. They ARE verses, no question about it. But ALL you did was to quote the verses, no context, no purpose, no discussion of "word meanings," no nothing.

So I don't have to take it up with God, I know what God said.

I ask you again, to what purpose did you intend the quoted verses?

How much does it cost to 'rot in jail'?!?!?!?

Everything in the universe was created by God and only by God. This includes Good and Evil. Low Orbit brought something up, I provided God's Word that illustrates it.

Thank you.

Now, let me ask you to clarify what you mean by "Good" and what you mean by "Evil."

Are you defining "evil" as sin or as something else?

The word "RA" (which is actually used in the Torah in Isaiah 45:7) means "evil."
The Sages say this is the Evil Inclination-- its personification would be Satan-- and comes from God. You could call it temptations, sin, whatever, but it all comes from God as commanded by Him.

I was in no way trying to 'indict' God over anything- the idea is laughable to me- I saw something Low Orbit wrote and responded. NOw, its 2am, my children are all in bed, my husband is also sleeping and I have a nasty headache. Id like to blame it on you for pushing me to read my books here and their small print, but that would be wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are still wondering how I see things so you know where Im 'coming from' there are some great articles at:
http://www.beingjewish.com/faqs/conflict.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

An exact 'label' of my family's religious beliefs is Bnei Noach, or Noachide. I often say monotheist pagan because its a heck of a lot easier for people to accept sometimes. When I say Noachide I usually get a hundred and one questions, over and over and over. Or heck, maybe I get a kick out of the shock value 'pagan' stirs up. heh

Mojodiva, the children of Noah??? Never heard of that. Rather surprised you write out the word G-d, though.

Thank you for bringing something new to my attention.

"The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.)"

SOURCE: DeathPenalty.org

I tried to find information that refuted this in an attempt to be balanced...but it's not there.

The most prevalent pro-death penalty argument is that the victim's families deserve justice.

Essentially...state sanctioned vengeance.

Here's a question. You and Mr. Wondering just stated that capital punishment is vengeance. So, let me take this a step further.

If a man rapes my wife, he is caught, and sentenced to 30 yeras in jail...is that jail sentence vengeance, or justice? Is that jail sentence state-sponsored "getting even" or is it punishment for an act that the rapist did?

You see, I come from a belief that there are things worse than death. I wont go into them right now, but I do believe there are things worse than that.

As a capital punishment proponent, I do not see execution is vengeance in the way you are using it. Let me bring in the definitions:

"Vengeance: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense."

"Punishment: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution ...a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure."

Now, we know God says vengeance is His. And God has exacted His vengeance through governments in the past. The key here is that individually, we do not have the right to exact vengeance...to lay down punishment to someone that has wronged us. But governments absolutely have the right to "vengeance" or "punishment" in the case of the rapist, just as they have the right to vengeance and punishment to the person who has murdered. So, we arent arguing whether governments can exact vengeance or give out punishment. What we are arguing is if governments can exact the form of vengeance or punishment called execution.

In His arms.

Okay. And the people of Michigan have the right to set-up their system of punishment this way.


Most proponents of the death penalty dont care really if it is a deterrent. That is not their argument. Just as locking a guy up for 30 years for rape doesnt deter other rapists.


I agree here. The media has turned it into a circus. So, where's the problem at...with the execution or with the idiots that call themselves journalists? Me thinks it is the latter! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I wanted to respond to this part, Mr. Wondering because what you say here can and does apply to members of the military. We say we are the most civilized nation on Earth. But have you seen what we require our soldiers to do to other human beings? I was watching the History Channel two nights ago and couldnt believe they would show the American public what it was like during a battle in Iraq. One point was very clear and definitely would shock the average American.

What had happened was there was a three man sniper team that went out searching for this 4 man terrorist team that had been harassing them and the public for weeks with continued mortar fire. So, they guessed where they would probably be to upset the polls during voting the next day...and they waited. Sure enough, a vehicle shows up in a courtyard, 4 men get out and start setting up their mortar. One of the snipers shoots the leader dead and the other three scamper down an embankment into a swamp with tall reeds. The three soldiers follow these guys to the swamp. One of the terrorists fires from within the reeds, killing one of the soldiers. The other two fire back, killing that man. But there are still two terrorists in the reeds. Know what they did?

well, one of the soldiers dropped his weapon, grabbed his knief and went running into the reeds. He found one of the terrorists when he got in there, they battled hand-to-hand, and the soldier stabbed the terrorist and then held him under water until he drowned. About this time, the last terrorist was found by the solider on the bank and the terrorist was shot and killed.

Does this sound civilized? Can many Americans even imagine what we in the military have to go thru...from playing baseball with our sons one day...and then doing all sorts of gruesome and almost barbaric things to other human beings the next? How can a civilized man do such a thing? How can a nation supposedly so civilized exact such brutality?

When we bombed Afghanistan and invaded it, when we killed hundreds of Taliban and Al Qaeda, what was that for? A deterrent? Hardly! we were exacting punishment, we were exacting vengeance for the death of over 3000 of our countrymen. We could have just stayed home. we could have just done better in protecting our borders and not letting lunatics on our airlines. We didnt have to go hunt these guys down. But we did. We hunted them down like animals.

Killing or not killing does not define a civilized nation. There is justifiable killing, as you know legally. There are reasons to kill that are civilized, that are morally, ethically, and legally correct. Just as the police officer shoots the bank robber who is trying to get away and takes a hostage. Just as the father and husband shoots the intruder into his house that is trying to harm his family. Just as the soldier who does all manner of horrible things to his fellow men, in order to protect the civilized society that sent him there in the first place.

Capital punishment is just another one of these choices. If Tookie had put up a fight when he was captured, and the police had shot and killed him, everyone would have said that execution would have been justifiable. But, have him sentenced for the crims he committed and then put to death in the most humane way possible (I should die so well!), and somehow we are not civilized.

Mr. W, I think we have two different definitions of civilized. Under the definition that you wrote, my fellow soldiers and I would be labeled uncivilized and a barbarian for the things we have done. I would be labeled as being no better than Tookie.

In His arms.

MM

HUGE difference between having a job at a prison system and being in the military. The levels of "DUTY" are not even comparable. Really, I am not even trying to be disparaging of the prison executioner so extending my point to the military is a little unfair. I honor and respect you and all the men and woman of the military for their actions and service, whether civilized or uncivilized, performed on my behalf.

I guess without trying to think to deeply about it my point is that Capital Punishment is carried out on behalf of all of us. I would do my duty in the military if I had to. Given the same orders I would do what the soldiers you discussed above did. I would not be a prison executioner. If I was a guard at a prison and my number came up randomly and I had to do it, no choice, then I'd quit. It is a free country, thanks to the military, and I exercise my rights and quit. That the difference.



But the media feeds our minds and the minds of our youth. I'd rather have my daughter discussing a story she saw on TV about a soup kitchen or a Lousiana family rebuilding than having to debate with a child about the death penalty over dinner. Then if you choose not to discuss it children will see Tookie (albeit briefly) as just another "victimized" celebrity. Another comment, you want idiot journalism, number one is Rush Limbaugh followed closely by the entire FOX news network <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering, the conservative democrat (another one of those darn liberal lawyers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)