Believer,

I didn't know this history...

I still regret what LM said to her..

I'm glad he deleted it...

Mimi:

Ok I am gonna be frank with with you here. I think this is probably going to be my last post for a while, as I think "I" need a "breather" for my own good. This has nothing to do with our disagreements, and I know that everyone understands.

Many have all "been there" at one time or another and needed a break.

I know you "mean well" and are a caring person and I don't feel like arguing with you again about our different POV, as in the end, neither one of us will ever be in the "same boat". That's ok though.

No matter how I "word it", this is a losing argument for me. Were on a Harley Marriage Builders site, so no matter what I say, it is gonna come off as "unsupportive" or not encouraging "Marriage", if I tell this woman what I REALLY THINK. So, I have learned to know when to "let it slide" and walk away. This is one of those times.

However, please don't confuse "positive thinking" with being "honest" about "reality".

Ofcourse I encourage "postive thinking" to even the most terminal end stage cases of mine....that doesn't mean that I say they can be "cured" or that a miracle can "happen" and their widespread lung cancer could be cured. Honestly this is what I FEEL YOU DO in alot of cases all in the name of being "supportive" and being "positive". You ofcourse can always go back to the horrible, despicable things YOUR "fogged" "ADDICTED" husband did and how IN THE END he came back to you. OK, I am not gonna deny YOUR REALITY. But that doesn't mean that I will ever tell my patients that I once saw a man with widespread Stage IV squamous cell cancer be "cured" with a resection and special "concotion" of chemotherapeutic agents, EVEN though it has happened in my llifetime. Yes, it does happen, but I don't let patients think that realistically it will "happen" to them.

Now, this isn't the same as "marriage building" but you get my drift. I know that Steve has saved thousands of marriages, so you can save your breath. Yes, it can happen, and yes PLan A is the plan that SH would undoubtedly advise. I disagree wholeheartedly...this is a MB site.....So I deleted it. I deferred to the "experts".

This case has been going on for YEARS. The person in question undoubtedly is probably an emotional cripple, with no self esteem or dignity left in her life ( who could blame her?). My goal for her would be to "gain" strength, regain her self dignity and respect herself. She does NOT respect herself TODAY. Yes, I know, you are gonna say that she does respect herself but that she just values her marriage more.

She posted a few days ago that her husband willingly told her that he was going to fly and see the OW and that he would be back on "tuesday" and for her to get over it anyway she could. He told her that he was having a "pleasant time" but to go ahead and "schedule" the counseling anyway. This isn't a case of a man in a "fog" or a man who made an "error" in judgement. Now, you know my feelings on this. I have made them known. Yes, we disagree. Yes, you beleive that MB principles and Plan A will work in this case and every case. I understand, I get it....and I also realize that each and every time that someone posts differently you get "upset" or "sad" and don't feel it is marriage building.

You get upset when someone disagrees with Steve Harley, but you have no probelm ripping off a post completely disagreeing with another professional counselor who offers an opinion of something you DON'T think he would agree with. Do you see the irony here?

I clearly appeciate the "MB" approach for things, and have learned a great deal here from this site, but in this case, with the history and extreme dysfunction that this poster has lived in, and the extremely poor self esteem she must have to be living like this, I believe that using any type of "Plan A" would be like sticking one self with an HIV infected needle. That is how I feel. You don't agree, and you see "hope" in her marriage and in her doing Plan A. OK, we disagree, and I have deferred to you in "helping" her do this, hence I deleted my post which was IN COMPLETE contrast to yours (which was PRO PLan A and "hopeful) and along the lines of what an "expert" would say. What else do you want me to say or do? We have "been here" done "that" a million times over.

I cannot in good conscious post to her with "support" for doing any of this with her husband who I feel will continue to steamroll her.

Yes, I am no expert and I am not versed in the principles like you. I am not an expert in saving a marriage, but I sure as he** am an expert im regaining my self esteem, dignity and self respect after an affair. I will just generally say, that sadly ***some*** people here have their marriages NOT in divorce yet, but they don't seem to have any dignity or self respect. I offered an opinion, and took it back (something that I don't like to do anymore) because maybe it was to brutaly honest.

When I do this, it is usually time for me to take a breather from this site.

Your friend Lem

I didn't like the cursing, LM...

It was unnecessary, IMO..

I am fully aware that you are also a caring person, trying to help the poster...

Maybe I'll have energy to post more tomorrow.

[color:"blue"]Ok-dokey

Plan A seems dumb to me at this juncture.

It's truth time and reality check time.

When H returns tell him how awful this was.

"The fact is, you spent your time and our money on a trip to check out a possible relationship with OW. Your decision to take this step has stabbed me in my heart. What is next? What are your plans? "

~~~~~~ and here's the deal

if he has even one toe outside the marriage ... ask him to leave ... send a very clear message ... in or out ..... no triangle marriage ...

If he waffles, be gentle and soft spoken and FIRM as heck ... he can waffle in a motel.

You cannot force him to stay away ... but you ought to ask. Tell him his decision to hurt you cannot be tolerated.

Then ... take the time to get organized.

You'll need 1-2 weeks or so to get all your Plan B ducks in a row.

You'll need to write a letter.

You'll need to get some financial stuff lined up.

Then you Plan B ....

Tough as this sounds, it is self-preservation .... and protection of your heart.

Recovery, should you ever get there, is HARD ... and the more JUNK he throws at your marriage the HARDER recovery becomes. The resentment factor needs to be minimized now, if possible.... by limiting his ability to step in and step out at will.

I think it is a better move for your M to ask him to exit ... until he can return 100% committed and OW is no more.

Plan B ... within a few weeks.

Do not welcome him home with open arms.

He's sooooooo "entitled" right now ... pull that rug out from under him pronto! [/color]

Riiiiiiigghhhtt.....

God has already spoken on the matter. He is trying to manipulate God as much as he is trying to manipulate you.

But I am very curious as to WHY he would even invoke the name of God in all of this. Does he consider himself a Christian? If not, what possible point could it serve to say "It's between him and God?" I suspect that YOU believe in God and Christ and he is trying to use YOUR belief to gain "acceptance" of his sinful behavior.

When he comes home, expect NOTHING from him. He can't respond because he will be angry and will be "blaming you." Just go on about your business and "matter of factly" tell him that you considering accepting his desire to end the marriage because there IS NO ROOM IN ANY MARRIAGE for anyone else other that the God he "invoked."

THE issue is NOT his desire or what he thinks he needs. The issue is very simple, humble obedience to God's commands NO MATTER WHAT HE IS FEELING.

So let's start with his relationship with God. Because if IT is out of kilter, the rest of your relationship with him will not be much better.

Having had to face my wife who was in a 6 year long affair when I found out about it, I KNOW the pain and anger you are feeling. Rest in God and STAND for God now as your anchor and refuge in all of this. The storm will subside, but until then hang onto Christ.

God bless.

As a FWS with a bit of a different story--I can say that my BHs steadfast and FIRM stance helped me in every way!

Jan I had to think about this for a day or so. I am going to advise you to kick his a$$ out. I would spend today packing a suitcase for him. I would not want him home after his wkend with OW. Be careful about STD's.
He is using the name of God to fullfill his A. I would give him the thought that God has told me that you he needs to leave. Go to cpunseling but do it for you. He has lied and deceived you for 6 years maybe longer. You have to gather your strenght for you and your kids.I worry about you and how you are.

Hey Lemonman, just wanted you to know I agreed WITH EVERY SINGLE THING YOU SAID. EVEN THE CUSS WORDS!

Things to do today:

1. Pack his bags. (Actually, after thinking on this, I realized, his bags are already packed and with him. He's saved you some time.)
2. Write a letter describing what needs to happen for him to be allowed to court you again and remain married to you.
3. Put letter in previously packed bags. (Or rather, just tape it to the door since he already has nicely packed bags)
4. Put bags outside by door.
5. Change locks (takes about 1-2hours max).
6. Invite best friend over for the night and settle down with a nice a movie, hot chocolate, fire, and lots of comfort and support. Do not leave YOUR home.

Ignore the telephone. Ignore the door.

This man needs a serious wake up call. There is no person on this Earth that should be taking advantage of another person like this. He has trampled your heart and soul without care. DO NOT STAND FOR IT! No one deserves this kind of treatment! NO ONE!

I am absolutely disgusted by this man's treatment of you. Please take care of yourself and your children before it gets worse.

I didn't read LM's post, since he deleted it, but I think I get the gist. Jancancrop, my heart goes out to you.

My first thought is that while your husband is gone, you would be well advised to seek out some legal advice, rather than marriage counseling. Save your money.

I firmly believe that not all marriages can or should be saved, despite what Steve Harley says. There is abuse going on here - mental abuse. He's kept her in limbo for years. While I believe in hope, I think it should be tempered with reality.

I would find it impossible to "Plan A" such a blatant repeat offender. Jancancrop says it's the 4th time he's put her through this! And I have said it before, as a FWW, I could never take someone back who didn't immediately give up their OP. My H agrees with me. Harley's principles or not, some things are just bad for the soul.

Sigh

If you intend to follow the above advice then you should also protect your financial interests as well. Go to the bank and either withdraw all the money and place it in a new account only in your name or place it in a double signature account (which requires both you and your husband to withidraw the money. You could also just withdraw 1/2 and put it in a new or old account in your name only.

You must insure you and your childrens financial security and avoid your "entitled" husband from yanking away all of your financial support as a weapon to accepting his behavior. You also do not want to have to rely on the courts to get you money. A little self-help up front can save you much grief down the road.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-Get a little cash stash for yourself as well. You may need it for a retainer for an attorney.

If you find that all of our advice is completely insane or impractical, perhaps your best bet overall would be to call the Harleys and get a professional point of view.

I am saddened that many posters here are expressing a dissatisfaction with the advice of others and we are struggling to present you a unified course of action.

Above all, I think we all are concerned about you and your family. Please do take care of yourself, no matter what you decide to do.

That was the point of my advice - to seek legal (and thus financial) counseling rather than marriage counseling, so I'm not sure why the "sigh". Jancancrop is being left in limbo. Her H has made his priorities clear, and they sure aren't her or the marriage or the children. Why should she do a "Plan A" when her H's plan is to take off and hang out with the OW?

It seems to me that a Plan A in this case is just another way of asking to be taken Advantage of. She's given him chances already.

Also, if you are looking for one unified view of what to do in a situation, the very last thing you should do is go to a message board with multiple posters. Decide what is most important to you, get expert advice, and go with it.

That is all I have to say.

I think the reason several posters cannot understand the advice to do a short Plan A is because of a different understanding of what Plan A is. If I understand it correctly, Plan A is the time when the BS negotiates with the WS to end the affair. Exposure takes place during Plan A. Sharing with the WS how much pain the affair is causing the BS takes place during Plan A. Of course, filling what EN's the WS will allow and avoiding Love Busters also takes place during Plan A, but that's just good tactics. "I am unbelievably shocked, hurt, and angry that you are having an affair. The OP is a threat to our marriage, and yes, I chose to combat that threat by telling your family, my family, and our friends. I won't apologize for that , but I do apologize for not filling your need for X" is a more effective message than "Listen you jerk, if you keep running around with that ho, I'm going to kill her and you, too." I don't think anyone wants to Jan to say, "Hi, honey, did you have a good trip?" and then act like nothing happened. That's not Plan A, that's just plain lunacy.

TJ.....

Hey Mimi and LM, take it outside...

Please start another thread where you can both work this out, not on this thread.

Please, please, please, keep dialoging (sp?) with each other, there are some GREAT solutions in this if you can keep it up, and for the benefit of others too.

BUT, when you keep a secondary discussion going on in someone's thread who is in crisis, the time and attention gets take away from their crisis...please start a new thread...

Just wondering how Jan is doing? She hasn't been on since she said her WH was coming home.

Please post again and let us know what's going on.

People here can help! And at the very least provide you with someone to talk to!!

Lost:

How are YOU doing?

What's up with YOU?

I think a few of us realize that due to the *length* of this situation she's in, that any plan A'ing or sweetening of herself will not be effective. Just *in this instance*.

Its my personal hope she will find the strength within herself to see her worthiness and realize she deserves a lot more.

Well said mojodiva, I agree 100%.

jan please update us.