I won't bore everyone with an update. Needless to say, I haven't filed yet, nor have we separated. I'm hanging in there while my wife and I work through this.

I find that I am still stuck with wanting the details of the affair. My wife claims she has told me everything, but it just doesn't fit. (she was diagnosed with an STD while having the affair, but claims no physical contact!!).

I can't get over this, I'm stuck and as long as I'm stuck, the marriage is stuck. I might be able to handle this, but I won't know for sure until she talks.

Last friday she came clean about some recent lies, but they were no big deal(she met a girl friend at a bar after work for 15 minutes (to meet new boyfriend) and she called a (male) high school buddy who's wife just left him (I'm positive that she is not attracted to him). Yet the lies prove that she is still lying or that she would lie if she thought I would be hurt or get mad. That said, I'm very happy that she has finally come clean about something with out me asking, still they had nothing to do with the affair, yet they do have to do with her character.

What to do, what to do???

If the affair is truly over, can I get over not knowing the details? Knowing me, I doubt it, but maybe I can.

Obviously if she caught a STD then there was contact. They will lie lie lie and lie some more to avoid having to deal with the shame and guilt of what they did. Even to the point of lashing out at you if necessary.
Ask yourself, do you REALLY want to know? Can you handle it if you did know? You are willing to work it now, but what if you were told things that may change your mind? Is that what you want? Think about it for a while. Maybe even with a counselor. On the other side if she is serious, she should want to come completely clean. Although they hold back in fear of hurting you again.

Hi!

Can i ask you something, how long have you 2 dated and been
marriaed???
Reason i asking a lot of STD can lie doorment before it
appaers...

In all frankness, it sounds like you're going to be plagued with dishonesty for a long time to come. If she is still comfortable lying and then "fessing up" as long as it's *no big deal* yet she won't come clean about having obvious physical contact (and it's obvious because there's an STD involved...unless it came from you or prior to the M as Marcus33 suggested), then she's a little too cozy with behavior that makes an A all too easy.

What kind of details can you live without? The truth would be a big one...

GT, she is not going to tell you the truth. Might as well accept it.

IMO as long as she believes that it's OK for her to be dishonest in order to protect your feelings, there can be no recovery: yours, hers or the M!

You need to emphasize this point over and over again with her until it becomes the standard practice. You also need to provide the environment that will allow her to feel comfortable being completely honest with you without believing that she will be "punished" for doing so.

And of course, you need to practice what you're preaching - and be completely honest with her.

She WILL have to answer your questions about the A at some point. This is very important for both of you in the recovery process.

A bit of advise when it is time to talk about the detail of the A. Write your questions down on paper as you have them, go over the questions on your list, revise / edit the questions until the "Big" discussion. You do not want to rely on you memory during this discussuion. It WILL be very emotionally charged.

Try to do the "discussion" in one sitting, Believe me that neither of you will want to go through this multiple times.

Stay Strong!

***IMO as long as she believes that it's OK for her to be dishonest in order to protect your feelings, there can be no recovery: yours, hers or the M!***

Exactly -- except that it's not YOU she's protecting. It's HERSELF.

As Melody said, she will never tell you the truth -- certainly not as long as there are no consequences to her lying and sneaking around.

That's why we all urged you to go to Plan B. Right now, she is convinced that she can lie to you and just wait out the storm because you will not DO anything about it.

She gets to enjoy the benefits of both marriage and the single life, and all she has to do is lie. No problem! Plan B would be a consequence, but that does not happen.

Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS.

No consequences = no motivation to change.

Right now, your pain and suffering is NOT a consequence -- not to her. It should be, but it's not. Why? Because she is a WW, not a W.
Mulan

Thanks everyone for the responses. Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.

osuguy: Yes I want believe that hearing the truth from her will go a long ways towards my personal recovery and maybe saving the marriage.

Marcus33: We've been together since HS. We're 39 and 40 yrs old. This is embarrassing to admit, but I'm kind of an expert on Infectious Diseases and worked two years in an STD program. While it is theoretically possible that she didn't get this from the OM, it is scientifically improbable. Add to that a little common sense, she was diagnosed and showed symptoms for the first time while having an affair. I don't know if I will ever get over the STD, but either way, I deserve the opportunity to know the whole truth and make a decision knowing everything.

CamoKnightsWife: I'm not looking for the ugly details, just the facts, she met him such and such time, yes she had sex with him and she's sorry. That would be a nice start. Can I deal with it; I'm not doing to good dealing with the lies, so the truth would be a nice change of pace. I am wondering how much of my life has been a lie. I do believe that her behavior suggests that she might do this again and that this may not have been the first time.

MelodyLane: I've been trying; it's not working out too well.

ManInMotion: I have emphasize this point, she just gets very angry and says that she's already told me everything and that she can't take "it" anymore. She considers my asking questions and suggesting that she is still lying punishment and proves we shouldn't be married because I "don't trust her".

walkingthefield: We can't have a discussion, she blows up every time. I'm very good at remaining calm (I haven't always been), but it doesn't seem to matter. She's used to bullying me and beating me down.

Mulan: Trust me I know and completely agree that this has a lot to do with lack of consequences for her actions. I was willing to go to Plan B on numerous occasions, but SH recommended against doing that. He felt our situation would not benefit from a Plan B and that the only option would be getting my wife to agree to a plan to work on the marriage or divorce. She actually believes that she is doing something by simply hanging around. I think you of all people understand how difficult it can be for some people to do (or not do) a plan b.

I'm having trouble following through with a divorce, because I don't want to only see my daughter 3 or 4 days a week. Yes I'm miserable, yes my wife is getting to live two lives, but at least I get to be a full-time dad to my daughter.

I think there was or is a chance I could live with not knowing the truth. Had my wife put more effort into the recovery process, (i.e. got a new job, been more understanding of the damage she had caused, etc); I think I might have been able to deal with this a little better. Instead, she kept lying and made contact with the OM after promising never to do it, so now it's just an issue of how much more I can take and for how long.

***Mulan: Trust me I know and completely agree that this has a lot to do with lack of consequences for her actions. I was willing to go to Plan B on numerous occasions, but SH recommended against doing that. He felt our situation would not benefit from a Plan B and that the only option would be getting my wife to agree to a plan to work on the marriage or divorce.***

That still seems very strange to me. I have never heard of him recommending this before.

***She actually believes that she is doing something by simply hanging around.***

That's because she remains a Freeloader in the relationship. The Harley book *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders* explains this very well.

***I think you of all people understand how difficult it can be for some people to do (or not do) a plan b.***

Yes, I do -- but let me ask you this: Are you still socializing with her, going out with her, meeting her emotional needs and letting her have a nice normal family life? If you cannot or will not go to Plan B, it is possible to go to an in-house Plan B that just might make a difference.

Grove, just sitting back and hoping she will wake up and see the light will NEVER work. She's got exactly what she wants right now -- a husband at home and a boyfriend at work. And hey, it must be okay because even though you complain sometimes you're still going along with it! Believe me, she's convinced that if she just holds out long enough you'll learn to accept the situation. And all of your actions are telling HER that that's exactly what you're doing.

You have got to come with some kind of consequences somewhere or this will NEVER change.
Good luck.
Mulan

Have you told her that yet?

IMHO: The EA / PA issue that we as BS's have to deal with is painful enough. But the Lying / Dishonesty / Lying again to cover up the truth is every bit as damaging.

Unfortunately, it usually falls to the BS to do most of the work to recover the M in the beginning. Later on they will become more willing to help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

***I think there was or is a chance I could live with not knowing the truth.***

Just stuffing your own feelings down your throat and forcing yourself to live in denial is not the solution here. Ever see the Jim Carrey film called *Me, Myself and Irene*? Check it out. That's what you are proposing.

***Had my wife put more effort into the recovery process, (i.e. got a new job, been more understanding of the damage she had caused, etc); I think I might have been able to deal with this a little better.***

Well, yeah. We all could. But the truth is, she will NOT put any effort into the recovery because she is a WS. So what's your point?

***Instead, she kept lying and made contact with the OM after promising never to do it,***

Just like 100% of all other WSs.

***so now it's just an issue of how much more I can take and for how long.***

No. That's where I will flat out say you're wrong. It's an issue of what YOU are willing to do to fight back and save your marriage, instead of just sighing and saying, "Well, she won't do anything, so I guess I'm helpless . . . "

Instead of focusing on what SHE will or will not do, you could focus on what YOU are willing to do to fight for your marriage.

Women do not love or respect men that they can walk over, and that's what she's doing to you. So what that you're hurt? That's Not Enough. No WS cares about the BS pain.

If YOU were willing to fight for your marriage, Grove, instead of waiting for HER to do it, you might have more hope.
Mulan

Mulan: "That still seems very strange to me. I have never heard of him recommending this before."

I know, but I've talked to Steve 4 times, and all four times he didn't believe that I should go into a plan b. I'll be honest, I'm scared. It's that simple. She doesn't care if I divorce her, I think she actually wishes that I would. She has support from parents and friends concerning divorce, so she won't get any feedback that says you should be saving your marriage. My wife is used to getting her way. That's partly my fault, I allowed this to happen, and when I started standing up for myself, she began a life outside of the marriage.

I want to do something, I want her actions to have consequences, but to be honest, I think only my daughter and myself will be the ones to pay for her decisions and actions.

walkingthefield: It's been 11 months, I was hoping she would be willing to help with the recovery by now.

Mulan: Could you please elaborate on what you mean by fighting for my marriage. I thought that's what I've been doing. I tried plan a, I spoke to SH and tried what he suggested, I thought I was fighting for my marriage. The only option left for me it to file for divorce. This would show my WW that I have stood up for myself and that I will not stand for this type of behavior any longer.

Grove, she must have SOME reason for staying with you or else she would just have packed up, moved out and filed for divorce *herself*. Why has she not done this? Why does she still stay with you?

As I aked before: Are you still socializing with her, going out with her, meeting her emotional needs and letting her have a nice normal family life?

If she is so unhappy and would be fine if YOU filed for divorce, why does she stay instead and make no move to file herself?
Mulan

"I'm having trouble following through with a divorce, because I don't want to only see my daughter 3 or 4 days a week."

Yes this is the usual male reality. If she leaves I bet she takes your daughter with her.

You can protest.

You call call the police.

You can go to a lawyer and file for custody and begin the long process of separation and divorce. The entire time you will be at her mercy as to when/if/where you can see your daughter. Even with a legal separation that defines visitation she will probably mess around with your time. Many many women do this. Again, you can complain, file motions, petition a judge, hold you breath till you turn blue . . . it will all have about the same affect.

If you really make her mad she just has to file a restraining order based upon her "fear" that you will hurt her and then you get to have court mediated visitation. She can also make the coup de grace by claiming that you were abusive, a drunk, a crack dealer . . .

Oh the fun you could have.


There are worse things than staying in a marriage that is unfulfilling so that you can have normal contact with your daughter.

No matter what, if you divorce you will have less contact than if you stay there and carve out some type of livable arrangement.

If you didn't have a kid I would tell you to simply divorce. As you are male and have a kid that you want to see everyday your options are very limited.

Mulan: "Why does she still stay with you?"

She claims that she isn't sure that she wants a divorce and that she doesn't want to screw up our daughters life. She also says that she "knows that I don't want a divorce, so she feels guilty about leaving."

I am still meeting her emotional needs. I would guess that is also part of the reason she is staying. If I left or stopped doing this, she'd be gone. I think that was partly the reason SH didn't suggest that I go to plan b. I don't know that for sure though.

Comfortably Numb: We've already agreed to shared custody if we get a divorce. So I will have and see my daughter as much as my wife. Still, it will only be 3 to 4 days a week. That just isn't enough for me.

This week has been tough. We're fighting more than usual and she just told me today that she didn't plan on getting me a christmas gift again this year. I was hurt and let her know how I felt. It didn't go well. I told her that I didn't want to guilt her into exchanging gifts with me, so please do not get me a gift now. It would be meaningless.

Merry Christmas!

Orchid: Hm... I think if you let him know how you feel now, he might. After all, there's no more plan A benefit left. U r not doing well as it is.


Orchid: Then u have to decide what is best for you. Living with a selfish person is not healthy. U sound like my H's BIL. My SIL (H's younger sister) is a very very selfish creature. Many in the family detest her ways. Have told her so but because her H shelters her and gives her whatever she wants, she convinces herself that it's everyone else who is a problem, not her.


Orchid: What is the result u r looking for? Remember you can't control her actions, just yours. Given that fact, now what?!?!??

L.

***I am still meeting her emotional needs. I would guess that is also part of the reason she is staying. If I left or stopped doing this, she'd be gone.***

You are terrified to death that she will leave and she knows it. That's why she's got carte blanche to run roughshod over you. She knows you will take anything she dishes out -- and you have -- if only she won't leave.

Unless and until you can get to the point where she threatens to leave and you simply hand her the car keys and offer to pack her stuff for her -- and do this KNOWING you and your daughter will make it okay -- your WW will feel free to treat you just as badly as she wants and never doubt that you will put up with it.

This is what I mean by fighting for your marriage. You are not willing or able to do that now and that is why you are on the brink of losing it all. As long as you remain scared to death of your wife's anger and threats -- and don't tell us you're not! -- you have no hope at all of saving your marriage because there's no marriage to save.

You can't control her. That is true.

But -- you CAN control you.

You CAN stop being a frightened doormat (am I makin' ya angry yet?)

You CAN tell your WW that you have no interest in being "married" to OM's girlfriend.

You CAN tell her that you miss your WIFE very much and you wish your WIFE would come home.

You CAN refuse to go out with her and you CAN refuse to meet her emotional needs in-house. Why? Because you only do these things for your WIFE -- not for a single girl and/or OM's girlfriend.

You've got to keep it up like a mantra on a broken record -- "I am waiting for my WIFE to come home. I miss my WIFE very much."

***I think that was partly the reason SH didn't suggest that I go to plan b. I don't know that for sure though.***

I'm suspecting now it's because SH knows you would never be able to go through with Plan B -- not in the timid-doormat state you're in now.

You cannot do an effective Plan B when you are scared to death that WS will leave. It will only make things worse, and Harley knows that.

Grove -- STOP LETTING HER SCARE YOU

IF YOU DO STAND UP TO HER AND REFUSE TO LET HER BE A PART-TIME WIFE TO YOU, SHE WILL GET ROARING ANGRY LIKE YOU'VE NEVER SEEN.

THE ONLY CURE IS FOR YOU TO "MAN UP", AS THEY SAY AROUND HERE, AND STOP LETTING HER SCARE YOU.

WOMEN HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MEN THEY CAN WALK OVER AND WIPE THEIR FEET ON.

WOMEN HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MEN WHO REFUSE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN FAMILIES.

THAT'S WHY YOUR WW HAS NO RESPECT FOR YOU.

If you haven't already, read "dazedandconfused's" thread on this page. Just yesterday, he was awarded temporary custody of his young daughter and will most likely get permanent custody at the next hearing.

You've got to take a risk here if you hope to win anything. Cowering at WW's feet and hoping to appease her will get you NOTHING except the life a single guy in a small apartment while WW and her boyfriend raise your daughter.

GET A LITTLE RIGHTEOUS ANGER AND FIND THE STRENGTH TO FIGHT FOR YOUR FAMILY!
Mulan