Here is a brand new thread for our discussion so that we don't threadjack the other one. Don't worry about time between responses. I still have one more final (in math) to study for (I take it tomorrow) so my responses might lag, as well.


I'm not looking to attack. I'm not sure I'm looking to make a choice but I'm not looking to avoid one either should a choice have to be made. I'm just not convinced there IS a choice, if you know what I mean.

I have had some discussions before, I believe with Mortarman which turned out quite nice and respectful. He wished me well and I wished him well.

The basic connundrum it all comes down to with me is Where do people find faith? I've spoken to people 'with faith' and I agree with something Mortarman said (roughly) in another thread - you can tell people who really have it. I don't believe they're making it (their faith) up. But, I also will say that I don't have it have never had it and that I have, in other more quiet times of my life... looked for it. I admit that during finals week and cramming, I just haven't done much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I always think more about it this time of year though because, I do love the story of Christmas... and all the trappings that go with it.


Great. I won't look at them until after my last final (tomorrow) because I need to do well in school. But, after that, I'll have time over Christmas break.


No, I'm not hardened. I have hovered occasionally at the outskirts of the faithful, marvelling at what they do and why. Others have given me their reasons. I suppose I'm less looking for hard proof (as I'm more an emotional/intuitive person than a thinker/data type) as I am the answer to the question 'where does faith come from' and, if as has been answered before, the answer is "From God" then where does one find him? I've looked in Churches, I've asked the knowledgable of all faiths, I've gone to quiet places of nature and I feel "no god."

How do you know this is the right god? Haven't you ever wondered/worried that what you have been told comes from the other side (assuming there are two sides) and, why are so many people allowed to get it wrong? Wouldn't it make more SENSE to just have a binary system: There's belief in God (the right one) or non-belief rather than what we have now where not only do you have different versions of "God" to worry about.... even within the same religion there are different stories.

How can any of this possibly be directed by someone or something perfect?

Anyway, I'm going to hit the books for a bit I'll check back later when my brain needs a break.

Mys

I look forward to the discussion.

The "short answer" to you question is "they find faith in surrender." It is WHAT they surrender to that determines so much.

For example, Satan KNOWS who Christ is, but refuses to surrender to Him.

God bless.

WOW! Excellent answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I love faith discusions. There are some people who refuse to get on an airplane. They know the mechanic and the principles behind what makes an airplane fly. They have even witnessed them in the air, yet they have no personal "faith" to walk aboard the plane and sit in the seat. This would be similar to a person with all the head knowledge about God, but just has not commitment to God. They have heard the stories, they have seen people in action going to church, but they just don't believe God is for them.

Then we have those who have to know everything about the plane and the record of the company that is handling the plane. They want to make sure the mechanics aren't on strike and that the plane is a well suited jet and not one of those small planes. They will eventually get on the plane after checking everything thing out. This is like those who faith can easily be ripped from them. They belive in God, but they have their doubts and they are not sure of their trust. They are always looking for proof that God exists and need confirmation of His existence in their life.

Then there are those who make their first trip on a plane, they walk up the boarding gateway, sit down in the seat with confidence and wait on the pilot to give his instructions. The plane takes off as the person leans back and relaxes in the comfort of the seat enjoying the ride while the pilot is in control. Now this is like a person who places full faith in God. They turn their entire life over to God and have peace that God will get them where they are going securely. They have submitted their control to Him.

Where do people find faith?

Faith comes by hearing....and hearing by the Word of God.

The more you hear Gods word, the Words of the Bible, His speaking to you directly through His Spirit, the preaching at church, etc......the more your faith grows.

I always think more about it this time of year though because, I do love the story of Christmas..

When you hear the Christmas story, you are hearing God Word, therefore causing some faith to be imparted to you and in you. It's the same when you are hearing the beautiful Christmas songs.

myschae, After hearing one of Billy Grahams Crusades, 14 yrs ago, I bowed beside my children's bunk beds, and I said "Jesus, if you are real, show me who you are." And He did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lady

P.S. I Hope you do well with your studies.

The entire town of Jericho heard the same things Rahab had heard. She had heard how the God of the Iraelites had demonstrated great power and gave them victory. Yet she was the only person willing to hide the Israelite spies and go against her own king to save the lives of the spies who would end up putting her city to ruin. She took the words she heard and let them become action in her life that turned to faith.

I did not "find faith" all the years I looked for it ....

faith found me

faith is a gift as far as I can tell

It comes down to one's openness to the gift

at least for me

and faith is not a result of an intense exhaustive intellectual examination ...

faith happened TO ME when I let go .... FH said it well

surrender

But, if Satan knows who Christ is (for certain) then he has no need for faith, does he? Isn't the whole purpose of faith believing in divine provience whether or not you can directly see or understand it? Otherwise, wouldn't God just descend once a year (say at Christmas) and show everyone once and for all that He is who He says He is? Somehow, you have to come to belief without direct, physical proof... something on the order of a Divine Gentleman standing in front of you saying "HERE I AM. BELIEVE IN ME."

Presumably Satan has no doubt who God is, he just refuses to obey him (do you ever wonder what his reasons are?) but it's not a lack of faith or a lack of belief...

I just don't think the God of the Bible (or Satan ) for that matter exist. Not because I have any empircal proof - but because I have no faith. I don't "feel' it's true in the core of my being and I can't, in good conscience, lie about it and pretend that I do. I've been assured that if I did "Know" God, that I'd know that I knew him. So, people have told me that when you find belief.. it's not something that can be hidden from you.. you know that you have it. I know that I don't.

Does that make any sense?


Well, that would be fair if it was a binary system (One God or No God) but it seems to me that there's an awful lot of information out there and much of it directly contradicts itself. I don't have a problem with relinquishing control or even the concept of obedience and servanthood. How do you know which God or which set of beliefs about what God wants you to do is the RIGHT set. What if the Moslems have it right? Or the Buddists? Or, the Mormons? How do you discern the truth when there's so much of it out there claming to be the truth? You can't just believe anything, right?

Even if you or ForeverHers points and says "This is true." how can anyone really be sure? At some point, doesn't it come down to having some sort of a 'relationship' or faith in something? If you lack that fundamental step, is there even a way to begin answering that question? I always though it was something you'd be guided to after you 'discovered' God.

Maybe I've been wrong.


I do love Christmas music. But, one of the things that's perplexed me the most is that the beauty that is described in those songs never seems to be what people talk about when they talk about Christianity. Take the thread this originated from.. on the death penalty... it was talking about killing whole cities.. men, women, children and even the unborn, presumably by the order of God. Where is the "Joy to the World" in that? Where is "Gentle on the wind, he whispers softly, rumors of a dawn so embracing... Breathless love awaits, darkened souls.." in "the wages of sin is DEATH"? Where is the beauty and love in torture and pain of the crucifixtion? Where is the relief from "Long lay the world in sin and errors pining till He appeared and the soul felt it's worth.?" Where's the "thrill of hope" and "weary hearts rejoicing" why is everything still so awful after "Yonder breaks a New and Glorous Morn?"

WHERE are all these things the music speaks of??? Where's the Heavenly Peace?

Why do even Christians seem cranky at this time of year.. which is supposed to be a holy time that there's strife over who says what in a store instead of the forgiveness, peace, goodwill and love that all the songs sing about?

If God sent His son down to Earth to spread JOY TO THE WORLD, then why is there so little Joy to be found? I would think Christians would be a uniformly happy lot.. almost giddy .. but they don't seem to be. Instead they seem to be afraid of what the world will do to them. If God exists and He holds you in His hands, why would you even fear anything?

WHERE are all the good things?

I have asked this question in many places and in many ways. And, all I've ever received back was emptiness, void, nothingness. What did I do wrong? If He answered me, and I was listening as hard as I could, wouldn't I hear it?


Oh, thank you so much for saying that. I appreciate it.

Mys

PS

I used to think (and occasionally say out loud) that religion and faith were a crutch for weak people .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
now I am among the "weak" and happier than I ever was

go figure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've heard this. In fact, I often try 'not to look so hard' because I've been told to 'be patient' and 'God will find me in His time.'

Maybe that's true. It hasn't happened yet. I don't know that it ever will but I've been assured I'll recognize it if it does.

Is that what you're supposed to do?


I consider myself to be pretty open minded... but maybe I'm not enough.


I tend to agree - I'm mostly intuitive/emotional. But how do you profess love TO GOD that you don't feel in your heart. Won't he know?

Wouldn't that be a bad thing?

Mys

Oh, satan wants to be God and therefore that is his failure and his reason for refusing to obey.

We place our faith in things every day:
How many of us step on an elevator and watch the doors close while it rises above the ground? We have hope it takes us to it's detination.

How many of us sit in a chair believing it will not fall to pieces when we sit in it?

How many times do you innocently stop, get out of your car to buy gas and think nothing of it? Yet I have known people who have been shot to death for no reason just standing there.

Yet in all those instances we have faith to do the things we always do. Faith the elevator will take us to our floor, faith the chair will hold us properly, faith we are generally safe. And yet in Romans it tells us we should be able to look around and see a marvelously created world and be without excuse to know there is a God. And if we know there is a God we should have faith in that God to know if He created us, He also cares for us.

I love the way you put that, Pep. When I was teaching the older elemenatary children at church we were talking about the Holy Spirit. The curriculum we were using had a great exercise for the lesson. I had donuts in a bag and I said to the children "I have a gift for you and all you have to do is ask for it and it will be yours..." just as God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit when we ask via surrender.

My, my faith found me in the hospital room of my infant son as he was fighting to live. I was a cynical as they come up to the birth of this child. I started to open up to the possibilty of God by observing the people who were members of my H's church. They lived what they believed. Then there in that hospital room in the middle of the night God sent messengers via a nurse and a respiratory therapist. I was also given a wonderful book that truely lifted my spirits it was "When God Doesn't Make Sense" by Dr. James Dobson.

myschae-
I must point out that the Satan of Christianity is very differant than God's servant Satan of the Tenach/Torah.

So when talking about Satan, its important to know which version you are discussing.

Take the thread this originated from.. on the death penalty... it was talking about killing whole cities.. men, women, children and even the unborn, presumably by the order of God. Where is the "Joy to the World" in that?

God is against killing babies Mys.

God is a Just, and loving God.

Example of a Just God....

Let EVERY soul be subject to the governing authorities

(Courts, police...etc.). For there is no autority except

from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by

God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the

ordinance of God, and those who resisit will bring

judgement on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to

good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the

authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from

the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But

if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear THE SWORD

(gun, execution, judgement) in vain; for he is God's

minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices

evil. (Romans 13:1-5)

People that murder the innocent will be judged at some point, but God does allow THE SWORD to come upon those who do evil. If fact He appoints it to come.

Look at the crazy insane Sadaam Hussein, THE SWORD has now come to him, and his evil followers.

THE SWORD has now come to Tookie Williams. THE SWORD has come to all those sitting on death row for their evil deeds.

As the above says, when we do good, we do not have to be afraid of the authorities. Have you ever went to court for a ticket, or another offense maybe bigger, remember how afraid you felt because you knew you did wrong.

The same God who said do not murder (exception: execution of evil criminals)...said do not commit adultery. Why do you think WS become so foggy, they have given into an evil deed, therefore they are taken over by evil (which is what many here call the fog). What happens with divorce court...the WS comes under judgement of adultery of the court and God for his evil deed.

No... there is no Joy in doing evil..But everybody in the world is not evil.

One day Mys, there will be a new earth, and a new heaven, where no evil will dwell. We look forward to that.

Lady

mojodiva, can I ask how Satan is different? My understanding of Satan is that he is an accuser of God's people, bringing forth their weaknesses. He roams the earth providing temptations. He has the power to afflict pain and suffering, but only as allowed by God. He challenges the angels that are faithful to God.

Just to say that this will be my last post today. I can't afford any more breaks - I really have to study.


Oh.


Somehow it seems much easier to have faith in an elevator than it does something you've never seen or experienced in any way. Let's say... mathematically it's easy to postulate that, in a universe of this size, other intelligent life must exist on other planets.. and yet it's hard to visualize and really truly 'believe.'

It seems to me that believing in something you can only really 'know for certain after you die' is a bit harder than believing in a chair.

If I was someone transported from say.. Biblical times, it might be very difficult to get me into an elevator or onto an airplane.


But, what if you just don't know that there is a God? What happens then? There's no excuse... so you... just... do what, exactly?


But, isn't it a bit more complex than that? Or, can you just say "Sure, I'll take eternal life, thanks" and do nothing else. My understanding is that belief is required, faith, love IN ADDITION to the request. The request comes after you are willing to do those things.

Do I have that backwards?


Mojodiva, so glad to see you here.

Well, that also brings up the idea of what about all the other religions. Let's say there is a God. Again, how do you discern the truth when there's so much of it that claims to be the truth out there. They all have explanations... many of them have 'God's book's' .. that describe what you're supposed to do to please God.

If there is a God, and He created everything then where did He come from?

Does anything say?


Then what is all this about?


Isn't this saying that in 'cities nearby' they are to kill anything that BREATHES? Men, women, children, dogs, cats, ... everything?

What about this:


It seems pretty clear: man, woman, child, infant, ox...




These are the things that kind of got me started here in the first place. Now, maybe these are taken out of context and I'm misunderstanding the context of what is being said although my reading comprehension is pretty good, I think. My interpretation of what is here sounds TERRIBLE. How do you manage to reconcile all of THAT with anything even vaguely approaching LOVING!? That doesn't sound loving to me AT ALL. Heck, this doesn't even sound like someone I'd LIKE let alone LOVE. Where is all the goodness? Where is the patience, the benevolence.. the "breathless love" that is promised in all of that.


Then why slaughter infants or oxen and camels for that matter? What evil could they have accrued?


Mys

Then why slaughter infants or oxen and camels for that matter? What evil could they have accrued?

Davids infant was killed due to his adultery with Bathsheba, it was a judgement. David even acknowleged that he would see his newborn in heaven someday also. He regretted what he did, admitted he deserved it, but you see there was a consequence.
My H has an STD today, I believe his consequence of his ONS, adultery with a prostitute.



Lady

As described by Rabbi Silberban, simply put:

G-d created Satan, and he is a messenger of, and subservient to, G-d. His mission is to try to deter people from doing G-d's will. G-d wants us to resist Satan and, thereby, earn our reward. If there was no Satan we wouldn't deserve credit for doing the right thing.
The Zohar compares the Satan to a harlot who is hired by a king to try to seduce his son, because the king wants to test his son's morality and worthiness. Both the king and the harlot (who is devoted to the king) really want the son to stand firm and reject the harlot's advances.
*end

Satan does not have a kingdom of his own and is not in charge of ******. He loves God, is COMPLETELY subservient to Him, and doesn't run around with horns and pitchfork. The word Satan in Hebrew means "hinder", or"to push", or "block."

God created this angel to test us. Our greatest gift from God is our free will. Satan's job is to test us, to see if we make the right choices. When we make the right choices and struggle against temptations ( we don't have to be perfect!), we are rewarded.

I do not recall ever reading anything about Satan challanging other angels.

Myschae-

I honestly feel that YOU will know when, what or if you believe something. My Orthodox friends are always telling me that there is a place in the World that Will Come for righteous people of all nations-- you do not have to be a Jew to be there.

Unlike some of the Christians here, I do not ascribe to the "God is a just and loving God that does no evil." Because HASHEM told all of us:
Deuteronomy 30:15 states,

See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.

and then In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God’s creation plan when he reports that,

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

((These are the correct translations from Hebrew to English in an English version of Torah))