mojodiva, let's get something straight, shall we? You are free to believe whatever you wish. But I do find it "interesting" that you choose to inject yourself into a thread that was directed specifically at me to provide some information that Myschae was asking about. I have no problem if you want to participate, but, please either start your own thread if you want to expound upon what you believe, or allow me to discuss this with Myschae without your injection of what you believe. I am quite sure that Myschae can evaluate and make up his mind for himself and is now asking me WHY I believe what I believe, as a Christian. Whether or not Myschae accepts Christ or not is not the issue. Answering his legitimate questions about Christianity IS the issue. What he chooses to do with those answers is up to him.

However, since you "put forth your opinion as fact" either for Myschae to consider or to simply attempt to "antagonize me" as a Christian, let's post up what you believe as a Noachide and let others see what is "behind" this faith of "works."




Regarding the Noachide (the "Seven Laws of Noah):

The Responsibilities of the Gentiles:


What does G-d require from the Gentiles? How can they achieve a moral life in this world, and the rewards of the world to come?


First we will present a synopsis of the commandments which are applicable to all of the Gentile nations, and then we will present a detailed explication.



Seven Commandments for the Gentiles, called the Sheva Mitzvos B'nei Noach:


The Path for Gentiles to Enter into the World to Come and to Avoid the Flood of Immorality in this World.



1. No worship or prayer to anyone except G-d. No images of G-d. No prayers to intermediaries. G-d is one, not none, not two, not three, not many.


2. No murder. Execution of criminals is however not murder, and is required. See 7.


3. No sexual iniquity which means no adultery, no incest, no homosexuality and no bestiality.


4. No stealing, even of an inconsequential amount.


5. No eating flesh removed from a living animal.


6. No cursing of G-d. No blasphemy.


7. Must set up law courts to judge on the other six. All seven are capital crimes. If the country does not set up courts to judge on the other six and to punish transgressors with death, then all of the inhabitants who could do anything about it are punishable

[The word punishable is used throughout this document as a translation of the Hebrew word çééá. In this context, it means that the person has committed a sin and therefore is liable for the punishment, whether or not there are courts who judge on these matters, and whether or not he is convicted. .]


Additional restrictions: No cross breeding of species nor grafting of trees. No castration.

A gentile who scrupulously obeys these commandments has a place in the world to come.

A fundamental text which deals with these issues is the Mishneh Torah, written by Rabbi Moses son of Maimon, called Maimonides and Rambam. In chapters 8-11 of the Laws of Kings he describes the path of the righteous Gentile and the commandments which pertain to him. The following explication of the commandments to the Gentiles is taken from the Rambam. [In general words in square brackets are our explanation rather than translation of the Rambam's text.]


1. Our teacher Moshe (Moses) did not bequeath the Torah and the commandments to anyone except Yisroel (i.e. the Jews), as it is written "an inheritance of the Congregation of Jacob" [Deuteronomy 33:4], and to anyone from the other nations who wishes to convert, as it says :"like you, like the convert"

[Numbers 15:15 "One Law will be for you and for the convert who dwells in your midst throughout your generations the convert will be like you before the L-ord.. But one who does not wish [to convert], one should not force him to accept the Torah and the Mitzvot (commandments). And so too did Moshe our teacher command from the mouth of G-d to force all of the people of the world to accept the Commandments which were commanded to the children of Noah]

This refers just to the seven commandments which will be described subsequently, not to the entire Torah.. And accept them before [a court composed of] three Chaveirim [i.e. Rabbis]. And whoever accepts upon himself [i.e. vows] to be circumcised

[This is not one of the seven commandments.] and does not do so within twelve months, is like a min [heretic] from the nations [i.e. he loses his status as a Ger Toshav]. [Since he made a vow and did not keep it, he loses his status.]




2. Whoever accepts the seven commandments and is careful to do them, behold he is from the righteous of the nations of the world, and he has a portion in the world to come.


[To be a Ger Toshav, with the rights and privileges thereof, requires accepting the commandments in front of a Rabbinical Court. Courts for this purposes will not be reconstituted until the majority of the Jews, and representatives of all of the 12 tribes live in the Holy Land. However a person can be one of the righteous of the nations of the world just by accepting and following the commandments, even without being accepted by the Rabbinical Tribunal.]

And that is if he accepts them and does them because the Holy One Blessed be He commanded them and informed us about them through Moshe our teacher, that the children of Noah were commanded to obey them. But if he did them because of his own philosophical conclusions, he is not a Ger Toshav and is not from the righteous of the nations nor from their wise ones

[There are three levels. One who does not violate the seven commandments, whether for the right reasons or the wrong ones, is not punished in the way that a violator is punished. One who accepts upon himself and follows through by properly fulfilling the seven commandments for the right reason - because the G-d of the Jews commanded them - is one of the righteous of the nations and has a place in the world to come. One who accepts the seven commandments in front of a Rabbinical Court properly constituted for this purpose (and fulfills them) is a Ger Toshav and has certain additional rights and privileges.]


3: Adam, the first man was commanded about six things: 1. Strange worship [That is worship of other gods. This is often translated as idol worship, but in fact worship of anyone or anything either in addition to or instead of G-d is a violation, whether or not images of any kind are used.] 2. Cursing G-d, 3. Murder, 4. Sexual crimes, 5. Theft or robbery, 6. Laws [I.e. the children of Noah are required to set up courts to judge on these commandments.] Even though all of these are a tradition from Moshe our teacher, and they are logical, we can see from the words of the Torah that they were commanded. He [G-d] added for Noah the commandment not to eat meat removed from an animal while it was still alive, as it says [Genesis 9:4] "But meat with its life [I.e. it was removed while the animal was still alive], which is its blood, you shall not eat.

[This commandment was not given to Adam because he and his descendants until the flood were not allowed to eat meat. After the flood, the animals owed a debt of gratitude to Noah, and from then on, Noah and his descendants were allowed to eat meat, as long as the animal was dead before the meat was removed. Genesis 9:3 says: "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."]


Thus there are seven commandments. This is the way it was until Avraham (Araham) our father. In addition to these [i.e. the seven] Avraham was commanded about circumcision, and he instituted the morning prayer service [called Shacharit]. Yitzchak (Isaac) instituted tithing [I.e. giving ten percent of his goods for the service of G-d], [Rabeinu Avraham ben David of Posquierre points out that Avraham began tithing.] and added another prayer service in the afternoon. And Ya'akov (Jacob) added the commandment not to eat the gid hanasheh (sciatic nerve) and prayed the evening service. And in Egypt, Amram was commanded additional commandments, until Moshe our teacher came, and the Torah was completed through his hands.


4: A Gentile who worshipped other gods is punishable [i.e. deserves punishment], and this is if he worshipped it in its way.

[There are general modes of worship, such as prayer, declaration of faith, bowing down, animal sacrifice, etc. which are applicable to any kind of "other god", and there are specific modes of worship associated with specific cults. For instance the worship of Markolis included the throwing of stones into a pile. This was not part of the worship of Ba'al. Someone who throws a stone in worship of Markolis is guilty, whereas someone who throws a stone in worhip of Ba'al is not.]

And every strange worship which the Beit Din (Rabbinical Court) of the Jews gives a death sentence [to Jews] for, a Gentile is executed if he did it. And every strange worship which the Beit Din does not execute [Jews] for it, a Gentile is not executed if he did it. But even if he wouldn't be executed for it, it is all still forbidden. And we don't allow him to raise a pillar [as a focal point for worship], nor to plant a sacred grove and not to make images, nor similar things.


5: A Gentile who curses G-d, whether he used the special four letter name of G-d, or any other name of G-d, in any language is punishable.


6. A Gentile who murdered a person, even a fetus in its mother's womb, is executed for it. And so too if he killed someone with a physical defect which would have caused him to die anyway. Since he killed him in any case, he is executed. So too if he killed a rodeph that he could have stopped by wounding him in one of his limbs, he is executed.


[A rodeph is someone who is chasing after another person to kill him. It is permitted to stop the pursuer, even by killing him if he could not have been stopped with lesser force.]

7.Certain sexual crimes are forbidden for Gentiles. The Torah specifies six relationships in this prohibition: a man with his mother, a man with his father's wife, a man with someone else's wife, a man with his maternal sister, a man with another man, and a man with an animal. This is derived from the verse [Genesis 2:24] "Therefore a man shall leave his father" (this is the prohibition of cohabiting with his father's wife) "and his mother" (the prohibition to cohabit with his mother) "and shall cling unto his wife" (his wife and not his friend's wife, his wife and not another man) "and they shall be one flesh" (to exclude cohabiting with a domestic or wild animal or a bird with whom he can not be one flesh)]. And from the verse [Genesis 20:12] "And also in truth she is my sister the daughter of my father, not the daughter of my mother and she became my wife" we derive the prohibition of cohabiting with his maternal sister.


[Female homosexuality is not specifically mentioned here by the Rambam, but it is condemned in the verse (Leviticus 18:3) "And you should not do the deeds of the land of Egypt in which you dwelt nor should you do like the deeds of the land of Canaan to which I am bringing you. and you should not follow their practices." Maimonides elsewhere explains that the deeds of the land of Egypt included a man marrying a man, a woman marrying a woman and a woman marrying two men. (This means that she may not have two husbands at the same time. Divorce and remarriage is permitted.)]

8. A Gentile is punishable for cohabiting with a woman who was previously seduced or raped by his father [even though she was not married to his father]. He is punishable for cohabiting with his father's wife even after his father died.. He is punishable for cohabiting with another male whether a child or an adult and for bestiality whether with a young or a grown animal. And the person is executed himself, but the animal is not. [If a Jewish person has sex with an animal, the animal is killed also.]

9. A Gentile is not punishable for cohabiting with someone else's wife unless the marriage had been consummated and unless he had natural intercourse with her. [Even though he is only executed for natural intercourse, all sexual activity with someone else's wife is of course forbidden.] If she were merely engaged, or even if they had a marriage ceremony, but the marriage had not been consummated, someone who cohabits with her is not punishable as it says [Genesis 20:3] "And she is a man's wife". [The Hebrew term for wife used here is áòåìú áòì which literally means that she had been "husbanded" by her husband.] This is the case for Gentile wives, because the Torah does not recognize the marriage until it has been consummated. But the Torah considers Jewish wives to be fully married after the ceremony, even if the marriage has not yet been consummated. [One is punishable for adultery with a Jewish wife whether it is vaginal or anal intercourse.]


Note that adultery refers only to the case of a man who cohabits with someone else's wife. It does not matter whether he is married or not. If a married man cohabits with an unmarried woman or girl, it is not considered adultery.

10. A Gentile who designated a female slave to be the wife of his male slave, and then cohabits with her himself is executed for adultery. But he is not punishable until the word has gone out and people say "this is the wife of so and so." And when does she become permitted again? [I.e. when is it considered as if she is divorced and free to be with another man?] When he [the master] separates her from his slave and uncovers her hair in public.

[Jewish married women are required to cover their hair. According to Maimonides, Jewish unmarried girls are also required to cover their hair. Apparently Maimonides also feels that Gentile married women should cover their hair, but that unmarried ones need not.]


At what point is a Gentile married woman considered divorced so that she can resume relations with other men? When he puts her out of his house and sends her off by herself or when she leaves by herself and and goes off by herself. Gentiles do not require a written divorce document the way that Jews do. Either party can choose to end the marriage. Whenever he or she wants to separate [that is divorce] they may do so.

11. A Gentile is punishable for theft, whether he stole from a Gentile or a Jew, and whether he stole money [or property] or stole [i.e. kidnapped] a person. [The crime of rape also falls under the heading of theft. The actual relationship is not forbidden, it is the lack of consent which makes it a crime.] This also includes someone who didn't pay his hired worker. Even a worker who ate produce not during working hours. [A farm worker is allowed to eat from the produce while he s working on it, but he is not allowed to save any for later. See Deuteronomy 23:25.] In all of these cases he is punishable and is a thief even if he stole something of insignificant value. Even if one Gentile stole an insignificant amount, and another stole it from him, they are both executed.

12. A Gentile is forbidden to eat even a small amount of meat that was removed from an animal while it was still alive, and is punishable for it. Blood from a living animal is permitted for Gentiles. [Jews are forbidden to eat blood, whether from a live or a dead animal.]


13. Whether the meat comes from a domestic or a wild animal if it was removed while the animal while it is alive, it is forbidden. [According to our text of Maimonides, he excludes fowl from the prohibition. The Ra'avad assumes that this is a copying error, and that Maimonides intended to say that one may eat insect meat which was removed while the insect was still alive, but not meat of fowls.]

14. If a Gentile slaughtered an animal, it is forbidden to eat meat which was cut off of it before the animal ceased to move.

15. Gentiles are forbidden to eat meat removed from a living animal, whether of a clean species or an unclean species, even if the animal had kosher slaughter if the meat was removed before the animal ceased to move it is forbidden.

16. In what way are the Gentiles to set up law courts? They must establish judges in every single town to judge on the other six commandments, and to warn people against violating them. A Gentile who violates one of these seven commandments is killed by the sword. It is for this reason that all of the residents of the city of Shechem were punishable by death. [See Genesis chapter 34.] Because Shechem stole [i.e. he kidnapped and raped Dinah] and they saw and knew and they did not judge him. A gentile is executed on the testimony of one witness without a previous warning. Relatives are accepted as witnesses.

17. A Gentile who sinned in error is not punished. However if a Gentile killed someone by accident, and the closest relative killed him in revenge, that relative is not punished. But the courts do not execute one who killed by accident. What kind of error is not punished? If he erred about the object of his actions, for instance he cohabited with a woman whom he thought was his own wife or unmarried, and it turned out that she was married to someone else. But if he knew that it was someone else's wife, and he thought that that was permitted, or if he murderd and didn't know that murder is forbidden, this is close to purposeful crime and he is executed.This is not considered an innocent mistake, because he should have learned the commandments.

18. A Gentile who was forced to violate one of the commandments [e.g. with threat of death if he refuses] is allowed to violate it. Even if he is forced to worship other gods he may do so if forced. [This is derived from the story of Na'aman II Kings chapter 8. After Elisha healed Na'aman, and Na'aman was returning home, in verse 18 Na'aman asked Elisha's understanding in that he would be forced by his king to bow down to the idol Rimon. Elisha answered him "go in peace".] For Gentiles are not commanded about sanctification of G-d's name. [This is not the case for Jews. A Jew must give up his life rather than violate the laws of worshipping other gods, murder and sexual crimes.] We do not punish Gentile children nor deaf mutes nor crazy people for violating the commandments.

19. A Gentile who converted to Judaism may not later change his mind and go back to just fulfilling the seven commandments of the children of Noah.

[Conversion is accomplished through three things: 1. Circumcision (for men only. If he was already circumcised, a symbolic drop of blood is drawn from the place of the circumcision), 2. accepting the Torah and all of its commandments and rejecting all other gods and religions, and 3. immersion in the Mikveh (ritual bath). All three of these must be done under the auspices of and in the presence of an Orthodox Rabbinical Court. A conversion performed under the auspices of a non-Orthodox group is not accepted by Orthodox Jews anywhere, nor by the majority of Jews in Israel, whether orthodox or not. If a woman had a non-Orthodox conversion, her children will not be able to marry a Jew in Israel and not an Orthodox Jew anywhere. Even many non-Orthodox Jews recognize the importance of continuing the unbroken chain of the Jewish people and reject non-Orthodox conversions. Unscrupulous non-Orthodox so called rabbis perform bogus conversions for money, not warning people of the tragedy and confusion that may await them. Anyone who sincerely wishes to accept the entire Torah and accept to comply with all of the commandments and to become part of the Jewish people can contact the author at hamikdash3@yahoo.com for further information.]

20. The punishment for violating any of the seven commandments of the children of Noah is execution, generally by the sword.

21. Through tradition we also know that Gentiles are prohibited from cross-breeding different species of animals. They are also forbidden to graft one kind of tree onto another. They are not executed for violations of these two prohibitions.

22. Circumcision was only commanded to Avraham and his descendants as it says [Genesis 17:9] "You and your seed after you". This excludes the seed of Yishmael because it says [Genesis 21:12] "for in Yitzchak (Isaak) thy seed will be called". This excludes Esau because Yitzchak said to Ya'akov (Jacob) [Genesis 28:4] "And He will you the blessing of Avraham to you and your seed". This implies that he alone was the seed of Avraham who held to Avraham's religion and his righteous ways, and they are the ones obligated in circumcision.

23. The Sages said that the children of Keturah who are the seed of Avraham who came after Yishmael and Yitzchak are obligated in circumcision. And since they got mixed up with the children of Yishmael, they are all [i.e. all of the Arabs] obligated in circumcision on the eighth day but they are not punished by death for violating this.


24. A Gentile should not study Torah except those parts which are relevent to him, i.e. the seven commandments. So too a Gentile should not keep the Sabbath like a Jew. He must do at least one of the labors which Jews are forbidden to do on the Sabbath [such as turning on a light]. Gentiles also should not make up holidays for themselves. The general principal is that they should not make up new religions or commandments They should either convert and do all of the commandments or they should just fulfill the commandments discussed above and neither add nor subtract.

25. If a Gentile wants to do additional mitzvot of the Torah in order to receive reward we don't stop him. In a time when the Temple is standing, we accept animals for burnt offerings from them. If someone who follows the seven commandments wants to give charity, it is permitted to accept it from him and the money can be distributed to the Jewish poor. But if an idol worshipper wishes to give money to charity, it should only be used for the non-Jewish poor.


All of the above is based strictly on the Rambam (Maimonides), one of the greatest codifiers of Jewish law.


Some of these concepts may seem strange to the so called modern westerner. It is very important to understand that G-d is the boss, and our job is to do his will, even when we don't understand it. God does not change, nor do his laws. They are just as relevant and in force as they were the day that they were given. (from http://www.hamikdash.com/Rambam.html)

So, just for clarification, mojodiva, is the foregoing what YOU believe?

Ahem.

A couple of things.


First, I'm female. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Second...



I think the time lines question is very important as it's one of the things that casts into doubt the very existance of Jesus Christ. Don't we first have to figure out whether or not he even existed? If he never existed then there isn't anything else to discuss. The REASON I came to think he didn't exist is because the very documents that relate his existence have been called into question. How can anyone possibly make any kind of decision about him when it appears that he's really a myth?

Earlier, you said: "Let's proceed under the assumption God exists" and move over to a discussion of Jesus Christ. That's fine. But that doesn't include the assumption that Jesus existed or it makes a pretty circular arguement. If you assume Jesus existed, and go through the exercise of figuring out whether he was a Liar or a Lunatic or Divine... then none of that will matter if He never really existed.

Amazon had a table of contents of the book listed and it seems to have some (possibly) information on the gospels and when they were written but I will weigh that against other research. If Jesus never even existed, then he's Legend - nothing more than a character in the moral play of the times, like many of the Greek Hero's. I can't see how we can have this discussion without examining proof of whether or not there even was such a person.

Finally, I just want to clarify something in my own mind. You've implied that these two books (or rather the content in them) form the basis of your decision. Is that correct or was there more?

Mys

Hope it's ok if I pop in on the discussion. I do believe in God but do not call myself a Christian. I don't believe I need a label to have a faith and as Mys has stated, there are so many religions claiming to be right and so many differences within the 'Christian' religions that I don't see the point in claiming Christianity for myself.

I do believe Jesus existed as he appears in other religions, specifically Islam as being a prophet.

What my main concern and possible confusion is regarding God and the Christian faith is the idea that this faith has been carried on through the years by the hands of man. Interpretations at the understanding of the simple man changes things and we are all aware of that. Logic and emotion can change facts. As an example, my interpretation of my childhood is much different than that of my siblings even though we grew up in the same environment with the same people as parents.

I don't agree with the modern timelines that are given and I don't believe that the translation of the Bible has stood the test of time. Simply look at the difference between the King James Bible (which I use) and the NIV. Sure, simpler to read and understand but so different in context many times. Then I think to the original text and wonder how different that might be. Wonder if it was 'interpreted' to meet the gains of men.

Another point would be to look at organized Christian religion. I see big beautiful churches stocked with works of art and trimmed in gold. The Catholic churches and Vatican being the beaming examples. At the same time, people in our world are starving, there are poor and oppressed. There is death and suffering and decay. Shouldn't the church be focused on taking care of the poor and down troden rather than building bigger and better churches for people who already believe to attend? Was this what God intended?

Church should be for everyone. Sinners and saved. Isn't that the point? Yet how many people are cast from the church because of sin? Shunned from God's own people because of imperfection? How is it that the poor are segregated from the wealthy in God's own house?

This is where my doubt comes from. Not doubt of God but of the Church and the men who bring God to the masses with fancy buildings and riches in storage. Men who practice greed, prejudice and judgement in the name of God. When I talk to Athiest of my beliefs I find that this is the very reason many have made the choice not to believe. Not because of inability to believe in something not seen but reacting to what they do see. Men acting in the name of God.

Symphony

As myschae noted, and YOU yourself said (that Christianity itself stands on whether Jesus was messiah or not), it was proper of me to inerject the arguement against that claim. I realize that you, FH, absolutely adore having the stage to yourself where you can suffocate the non-Christian with a spew of words, and now that I have given myschae another line of information, I am happy to step away and let your little light shine.

I do want to point out that you INSINUATED THAT I WAS A LIAR. So instead of APOLOGIZING FOR SAYING I WAS ****LYING****, you do EXACTLY what you get all pissy with 'the others' for-- you muddle the arguement with a whole new issue. Its obvious from your words """let others see what is "behind" this faith of "works.""" that your beef is with the Jews, not me. We could start a little flame war back and forth over the dogma of some religions, but that was not what myschae was asking.

YOU SHOULD APOLOGIZE FOR CALLING ME A LIAR.


I have tried putting you on ignore many times. I am going to continue to try and hopefully it will stick. If I was trying to provoke you, mister, you sure as heck would know it.

mojodiva, I didn't call you liar even though you may have interpreted my opposition to you as such. If so, here....I happily offer you my apology for your interpretation of what I said.

For the record, I'm not "muddling the issue" with you. You stated quite plainly that you embrace the idea of the Path of the Righteous Gentile according to Jewish teaching and that you consider yourself a Noachide. What I posted was THE tenets of Noachide law to see if you concur that THAT is what you embrace and believe.

I'm happy to tell you exactly what I believe concerning Christ, God, the Scriptures, and Christianity as a religion. But don't you think the same openness and honesty is incumbent upon you if you want to pontificate or argue or, heaven forbid!, attack the Christian religion?

That "Telling what I believe" is what Myschae (who I DO owe an apology to) asked of me when she started this thread in response to a discussion we were having on another thread, so as to NOT hijack someone else's thread. And here you are again, attempting to hijack this thread AND make me out to be the "bad guy" because I have the "temerity" to say something about it. It's okay for you, but it's not okay for me to state my opinion on a thread that was targeted for MY opinions? Riiiiiggght....I'm rofl over that one.


No, it was not "proper" for you to intrude with arguments against "that claim." That's merely rationalization and justification on your part, but it still doesn't make your intention or action "proper."

If you wanted "proper," then start your own conversation with Myschae to present your "alternative view." What you did was nothing more than "butting into" a discussion that two people are having that didn't concern you. "Butting into" a conversation with the intent of belittling someone's belief (as you are trying to do with my belief in Christ) is NOT proper, no matter what spin you want to try to put on it.

So let's see....where are we in the "who owes who an apology department?"

Don't worry, I'm not looking for one.

Myschae - please accept my most abject apology. I didn't realize and should have.

Myschae - I agree with you. That's why I suggested the Evidence That Demands A Verdict book. What you are asking for is a LOT of research and I just don't have the time to "write a book." But if it will make you happy, I will try to find the time to type in the research information on when the books of the New Testament were written. All of that stuff is contained in that reference book I mentioned, but if you'd rather not read it and THEN discuss and ask quetions, I can try to accomodate you.

Look, the sort of discussion you are asking that we embark upon is NOT a "quickie," "one liner," short posts, sort of thing. You are asking about getting into the "nuts and bolts" of Christianity. That's fine. I, too, have an "I'm from Missouri" mindset. All that I am telling you in advance is that the PROOF exists. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. Whether you accept Christ or not, even if you accepted the proof, is also up to you and IS a "step of faith."

It is NOT my job nor my purpose to "convert" anyone. It is my responsibility to stand ready to try to answer someone's sincere questions, to provide what information I can, and to STAND in defense of the faith from attacks.

So I'll see if I can spend the time needed to type in research on the dating of the Scriptures since you seem to be holding that as a "determining factor" and not the truth of the message or the attestations to who Christ was.

Your indulgence and patience will be appreciated due to my less than speedy typing skills.

God bless.

Symphony of Life - of course it's okay to join the discussion. Sincere questions are always welcome.

Hopefully you may find some things to think about in answer to your suppositons and "objections."



S o L - You are RIGHT to be on your guard when it comes to "men." All of us are fallen and all of us are capable of sinning. AND there ARE "wolves in sheeps clothing" seeking "use" religion for their own "gain."

Church IS for everyone.

Membership IN a church is not.

People are not "cast from the church" because of sin, they are "put out" because they refuse to repent of willful sin against the God they claim to be their Lord and Savior. Usually though, when confronted in love according to a Matthew 18:15-20 intervention, most people, especially true Christians, WILL repent of their sin and are reestablished in fellowship. In MOST cases it never gets to the level of actually disfellowshipping, excommunicating, shunning, or whatever term you want to apply to the idea of being "cast out."

Also, the poor should NOT be segregated from the wealthy in church...we are all equally children of God, in Christ. Once again you may be referring to "human sin" that is prevalent everywhere, including, sadly, in some churches.

"When I talk to Athiest of my beliefs I find that this is the very reason many have made the choice not to believe. Not because of inability to believe in something not seen but reacting to what they do see. Men acting in the name of God.".

While I suppose this might be true for some Atheists, it is NOT true for most. Atheists, by definition, reject any notion of a "higher being," "God," or "Creator." Opinions of people either in or out of a church hold no importance to an Atheist. They choose their "belief" of "no belief" because they WANT to, because it "fits" their wants and desires, NOT because of any reaction to anything that they see. IF that were so(their choosing Atheism in reaction to what they may have observed in some people), there are MANY examples of people who HAVE led sacrificial and caring lives BECAUSE of their belief in Christ. One cannot use one "observation" and ignore another equally valid "observation" of people who claim to know the Lord. That is precisely WHY James said: "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder. (James 2:17-19 NIV)

The point is simple, anyone can "claim" to be a Christian. But a true Christian will love the Lord and humbly obey His commands and you will SEE evidence of that love by the "works" that love motivates them to do. They don't "do works to be saved," they ARE saved. They do "works" out of love and appreciation for what was done for them because NO amount of works can "earn salvation." That is why a Messiah was needed in the first place. But that's another whole discussion. Perhaps another time.

God bless.

You did call me a liar by using the phrase "passing yourself off." Anyone can see that. And you STILL cannot own up to it.

Its not incumbent upon me to explain myself to you. I left links and the information is out there. I'm busy with my children and household. Its why a good amount of my posts are short. I also find missionizing types of posts, like almost every one you make, arrogant and annoying.

I can see why you object to my post. You wanted a one sided discussion, completely in your favor. I've done absolutely nothing to apologize for, so Im glad you are not waiting for one.

I have one more thing to try to get the ignore to stick. Tech support here is woefully lacking.

Myschae, good luck with your journey. The beliefs of FH and I are not the only ones out there for you to consider and explore. You will know when you find it if that is what you are looking for.

Apology accepted though none was really needed. I just wanted to let you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It's odd to be referred to as a 'him.'


Actually, I'm quite content to read first if you'd like to save the time. I just wasn't entirely sure that topic was covered - or how thoroughly it was covered just by looking at the table of contents of the book. It wasn't very clear to me that this was one reason you mentioned the book - as the statement you said about 'getting to it' seemed to indicate that it might not be in there. Now that I know that the information is in the book, I can certainly read it and then bring the discussion back.

As to the other topics, I do have things to respond (and to other people) but I'm in the middle of 'Winter' cleaning today so I'll have to wait until this evening to get to it.

Thanks for your patience.

Mys

Okay, if you think that was "calling you a liar," I apologize.

So that means that you DO subscribe to ALL of the tenets listed for being a Noachide and that we should all be put to death, or at least all of the memnbers who are, or have been, Wayward Spouses....and then all the rest of us simply because we let the "State" NOT impose the death penalty.

Oh what a tangled web we weave ....




Nope, you don't have to explain yourself. You can spout opinion all day long and tout it as fact. I DID take the time to read not only the links you chose (to support your attack upon Christianity) but also a number of other web sources for information about your Noachide belief and your Path of the Righteous Gentile to better inform myself about your beliefs, since you have steadfastly refused to provide it yourself, even while attacking someone else who IS trying to explain his belief and why he believes.

Tech Support here is not needed. If you want to "ignore" all posts by a given member, in this case me, then all you have to do is to click on my name and then click on "ignore posts from this member." You'll not be "bothered" again.

That information has been brought to you from the Tech Deparment, the letters "N" and "C", and the number 3.

Have a nice day!

FH - I am continually fascinated by what you write, and usually choose not to waste time arguing with you.

But this passage above requires some reaction. I suspect most athiests would disagree with the entire thought.

Although I've been referred to as one, I don't consider myself an athiest - I just don't ascribe to any organized religion. Nonetheless, I can attest to having given considerable time and thought to the opinions of many, many people on a continuous basis, regardless of their beliefs. I can also attest to having arrived at my beliefs - similar, I suspect, as REAL athiests have - based on considerable thought and consideration of a vast amount of information, maybe even more than you in arriving at your beliefs.

To say I arrived at my "no belief" just because it was convenient, "because it "fits" their wants and desires, NOT because of any reaction to anything that they see" is quite insulting, arrogant, and altruistic. Not very Christian-like.

Please be more considerate of others' beliefs while participating in a public forum - it may become a desirable habit.

WAT

PS - congrats on being the only person here to motivate me to post in many months. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
------------
"It is ironic that several of these (school board members), who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the Intelligent Design Policy." -Judge John Jones

WAT my apologies. Seems like we are back to me having to apologize for my apparant "quite insulting, arrogant, and altruistic" opinions but that others may freely be "quite insulting, arrogant, and altruistic" toward me and my beliefs.

Interesting to say the least.


If not an atheist, then it would seem that the closest approximation would be Agnostic, no?


Hmmm...perhaps. Although you have no idea how much time I have spent or the extent of the information I have reviewed and studied. Just another "quite insulting, arrogant, and altruistic" attitude toward me and my beliefs, or so it would seem.

It never ceases to amaze me how "offended" some folks get when someone stands up and defends Christianity. But they can attack Christians ad nauseum and Christians are not supposed to, or "allowed" to, get as equally offended, let alone have the temerity to defend their faith.

You really don't want to get into the "evolution versus creation" discussion again, do you WAT? I mean, let's face it, life arose somehow, and the ONLY two choices for "origins" are evolution (nonlife begetting life) or creation (Life begetting life). There are NO alternatives. If it is ANYTHING other than evolution, then a "Supreme, Alive, Living, Being" MUST exist whether we call him God or some other name.

To choose....that is what each individual must do, one way or the other. Myschae is inquiring about the "Christian way" right now. Myschae has not said she will not consider an examination of others beliefs, just that for the purpose of THIS inquiry she called me out to discuss Christianity and the "proofs" and beliefs. You have chosen to "fence sit" and "hold yourself above the fray and make NO decision concering the existence or nonexistence of God, let alone "which" God is the "one true God." That's okay. You can choose the "fence" or anything else that suits your fancy, you have that inherent right.

So if y'all want to get offended, I'll move over on the bench and make some room....there's plenty of "offended" people to go around.

Nice hearing from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />back at 'cha

Fence sit? Naahhh. I know exactly where I am - very much grounded, not wavering, not anything close to being indecisive. BTW - I really enjoy reading and hearing others' opinions, in the event I come across a really good thought that could challenge my prior views. My favorite part of the newspaper is the editorial page. You can't find differing views unless you look for them.

I guess I have situated myself apart from the fray - I have no interest in debating belief systems.

Also correct, I do not want to re-plow old ground re: evolution. But...Evolution is not about the origin of life - it's about changes in life and speciation over time. Life from non-life (considering only natural processes) has another scientific term that I cannot recall at the moment. Glad you agree that ID isn't a choice, at least not a scientific choice. Or rather, are you agreeing with the Judge that ID is creationism repackaged in an intentionally deceptive way?

Speaking of excellent reads - the Dover PA ruling is a real page turner. Dover PA ruling Highly recommended for all open minded thinkers.

WAT

Hi Myschae, and others.

Faith is an interresting topic.

Logic tells us that either God exists, or he does not.

If God does exist, how do we find out about him? How can we know? I believe that is your question?

I think the answer for that is provided to us in scripture.

From the book of James:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Ask God in faith.
Prayer.

To some, it could seam like a cop out, because it lets us know in advance that some prayers may not be answered.

One can prepare. One can strengthen faith. One can ask, and hope, and ask again, until an answer comes.

One learns about spiritial things by studying spirital things.

An aquaintance of mine got on a flight and sat down. In his discussion with his seat mate he learned his partner in discussion was an agnostic. The agnostic said he had studied much that attempted to disprove Christianity.

My friend asked him what he did for a living - and found that he represented a large multi-national computer company.
My friend said, "If I wanted to learn about your product, how wise would it be to ask your largest competior?"

We learn about, and we get good at what we immerse ourselves in. If you want to learn about Christ, study the scriptures that teach about him.

Baseball - you take sports magazines, and you watch it on TV, listen to it, and play it. You get a coach, and you practice. You throw the ball, you bat on your own time.

Any sport - same thing.

Name any hobby - if you want to know, you study. If you want to be an expert, you immerse yourself.

When Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was -
From Matthew chapter 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Spiritial things are known by spiritial means. Peter knew not because he read it somewhere, he knew by the power of the Holy Ghost - who testifies to our spirits of the truth.

Jesus also said we could know if his teachings were from God by living them -
From John, chapter 7

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


If we are willing to live his teachings, we also come to know that they are right, and from God.

Going back to baseball again - and forgive me if you are not a sports fan. I admit I don't know much about you.

Anyway, going back to baseball - You want to know if you like baseball? Play it. Watch it, read about it.

Did Jesus teach the truth?
Study it.
Pray about it.
Live it.
It will come to you, I promise.
Just like it came to me.
God Lives, he still loves us.
If you want to know, you can find out.
He will help you.

SS

Very glad to read this. We are so not ready for religion to be taught in public school, or to be a part of our government.

And when we are ready, we won't need it because we will have reached a level of enlightenment which does not require religion or government.

For we will all have remembered that which we have forgotten, and that is we all ARE ONE.

So this constant debating is really a design from the ego to keep us separate, keep us arguing and keep us from the inner peace which would lead us to our "remembering".

It is so interesting and enlightening to read others beliefs and points of view, as we have so much to learn and so much to teach...but when a difference of belief is used/perceieved as an attack, growth does not happen.

Why can't we respect and value others beliefs? We are all looking for the same thing after all...inner peace and our purpose for being here, or even if there is one.

For anyone who is interested you can believe with all your being that God is your father and always with you, you can believe that Jesus was the most enlightened and holiest of all men to walk this earth and yet not take the bible as the literal truth.

I personally no longer consider myself a "Christian" because of the views of what is fast becomming a very large Christian sect...but I know that Jesus guides me, and walks with me everyday as I have asked him to, but I beleive the Bible is no more than a book of novels written by men with intentions/biases which were not based on actual facts or truths.

Sorry FH, and please do not take this as an attack on your Christian beliefs which I respect but simply do not agree with, although I was raised a Christian it wasn't even close to what seems to now be considered "Christian".

It's all good, because we are all searching, learning and growing. And someday we will all rejoice together once again.

And what is my source as you will surely ask FH, for my beliefs...many but the three which "knocked me to my knees" - "A Course in Miracles", "Jesus and Forgiveness", and "The Disappearance of the Universe".

Forever Hers,

While I agree with your thoughts on WHAT the church should be and how TRUE Christians should act and interact, I just don't see it happening in real life. I've seen too many poor, too many "sinners" shunned by the Church.



As an example (and not to start a debate on the subject), Biblically I believe that homosexuality is wrong. Personally, it's is not my place to judge but God's. From a biblical standard I don't believe a homosexual belongs in a place amongst clergy BUT I do believe homosexuals DO belong in the church congregation. If you say that by reading the Bible and being with Christians and studying is a way to grow and nuture faith in God, then wouldn't the church be the best place for sinners, whether they are currently repentant for thier sin or struggling with their faith? Isn't the church the place they would find repentance, faith and salvation? Isn't it God's place to judge?



And experience has taught me differently. Almost any Athiest I have spoken with (I have Athiest and Agnostic friends) has come to thier rejection of God based on the actions of a Bible toting, church going person in thier lives who was actually quite nasty. Sure, logic says you can't base your own choice on the actions of another but when you see your alcoholic father beating your mother with a bible in their free hand, while at the same time being a regular church goer and claiming to be a "Christian" you tend to draw conclusions. People are emotional and DO react to circumstance. BTW the above example is NOT my experience but one that I have heard more than once.

Many Athiests have searched for God. Many Agnostics do continue to search. Many are like Mys. They just don't see or feel it and therefore aren't compelled to believe. Many people in our world are searching for meaning and a 'Higher Power' to help them make sense of it all.

The one thing I find most interesting. The Athiest I know are willing to admit they may be wrong. Christians are not. This leads me to a personal question for you. Why do you feel you need to "defend" your faith? Don't your beliefs stand on thier own? Don't your words and actions, followed by your faith 'defend' your faith and Christianity? I don't understand why, if you have strong faith in what you believe, that you would need to "defend" Christianity.

I have to be honest with you, when you are "defending" you come across as arrogant and condescending. Is that 'Christ-like?' I really believe the one sure way NOT to be heard and not to be understood is to approach a religious discussion with defense. If you attack a non-believer they are not going to hear what you have to say. You have detroyed respect for yourself. If you are attacked aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek?

My husband is an Athiest. We have fabulous discussions regarding our beliefs. Both of us believe what we believe and we aren't trying to change each others mind. The common bond we share is a mutual respect for each other. That respect has allowed us to have REAL conversations where we can see an understand what each of us has to say. Even though my views are apposing to an Athiest I have never been in an argument or heated discussion. I just don't understand your need to defend. Could you explain it to me?

Symphony

And experience has taught me differently. Almost any Athiest I have spoken with (I have Athiest and Agnostic friends) has come to thier rejection of God based on the actions of a Bible toting, church going person in thier lives who was actually quite nasty. Sure, logic says you can't base your own choice on the actions of another but when you see your alcoholic father beating your mother with a bible in their free hand, while at the same time being a regular church goer and claiming to be a "Christian" you tend to draw conclusions. People are emotional and DO react to circumstance. BTW the above example is NOT my experience but one that I have heard more than once.

And that is them Not GOD or JESUS Hello, So I guess all those, neo-nazi in Germany or the kkk should,be the bases on how all non-whites treat the rest of the white people in this counrty or aboard, or don not do any business with an italian because he works with the mob, and don't forget to hold your purse when that young black or hispanic male walk by because they might mug you to get their colors.

Basically that is what I'm hearing from your post, I used to be that person because of the church I attended was of the do as I say not what I preach about, party saturday night repent on sunday for your sins. But I came to the point where it dawned on me that any thing can come from the pulpit because we are sinners but just like they preach here words are nice but follow them with actions.

Symp please give some exps of us christians not wanting to say we are wrong kind of a broad sweep with that broom there. As to why he is always defemding his beliefs is because he is always being attacked on here, I mean look at this post Myschae started this post for Forever to answer some questions and right away mojodiva starts in on him, telling him he called her a liar, For said sorry twice and she still won't let it go.

I even questioned some posters on their hammering a poster on her beliefs on non-premarital sex, as stated in the bible but yet the pull out the thou shall not cheat on spouse because you know that also came from the bible, people seem to pick and choose things that they like about the bible and leave the things that hit close to home...
The BIBLE is not a buffet.

And GOD love us all even (gays) he hate the sin but loves the sinner.

Swans song,



I see your point but then you prove my point. If a woman is attacked by a person of color her natural instinct would be a fear or discomfort around people of that race. It's not racism but more instinct. A reaction to a trauma. People DO react to trauma.

I understand that people who do evil deeds are themselves and are NOT God or Jesus so no "hello" needed there.

Symphony:

Swan's song:

I was refering to my experience, the people I know and those I have talked with within regards to religious belief. Not Christians in general. You seem offended and that isn't my intention. I believe in God and I am not condemning Christianity I just don't label myself as a Christian. You and I most likely have many of the same core beliefs. No need to be offended.



I don't know the previous interaction between mojodiva and FO. I will say that my perception of the dialog on this thread was quite different than yours. I didn't see Mojo "starting in" or attacking. I read what she thought and believed. As for the liar stuff, I'll admit, I didn't read the entirety of FO post to her (was rather long). What I did read was an apology for Mojo's perseption, not one for FO's words. In my book an apology is simply saying your are sorry for what you did. No excuses, no twisting it back on the other person.

I did read your post just a bit ago on the thread dealing with sex outside of marriage. From a Christian perspective you are definately on. People do tend to twist things into what they want.

Symphony