We haven't even been separated for two months...and I find out from oldest daughter that my W has a dinner date with a "friend" this coming Friday.

How can someone do that? She hasn't even let the body get get cold...

It makes me want to go out find someone to spend the weekend with and send her pictures...

It's becoming apparent that we don't even really know the people we're married to for 20+ years.

I'm going to stop feeling bad about the end of our marriage. It's becoming apparent that it's probably NOT all my fault like she'd have me believe.

I'm becoming convinced that infidelity indicates that a marriage is irrevocably broken. Sure we can slap on a little tape and bondo and try to hobble on...but I becoming convince that I should've divorced her when I had my affair.

With all due respect to the Harley's...marriage in general is hard. Marriage after an affair is impossible. I'm wondering why anyone would want to engage in either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Low

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LOrbit,

I have lurked for a long time and I'm somewhat familiar with your story. You posted something a while back that almost caused me to break a 3yr lurking silence on these boards. This post gave me a similar reaction. I am writing this reply because I think that you are like most others on these boards, you want to learn/understand what went wrong in your relationship and how to prevent that from happening again and/or select a better relationship next time. I was the BS, so I hope you can listen to my perspective and get a little insight. Please note that I write this with humility & I am not trying to upset you - I hope that translates in writing.

Yes, it is hurtful to hear about a STBX who is actively dating again. (Personally, I was not interested in dating for a year after the D, which was 2 yrs after Plan B.) Now just for a moment imagine the hurt of the BS when a WS goes out and starts "dating" an OP during the M. The pain is excruciating. Perhaps, with all that has happened she is acting out of deep pain (similar to someone who has a revenge A, maybe?). I'm not saying it's ok, just saying that it may be motivated by the intense pain of prior betrayal and rejection during the M. If you view it this way, you may view it with some empathy.

You also say: "It makes me want to go out find someone to spend the weekend with and send her pictures..." This sounds like more revenge in the relationship. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three wrongs don't either. When does it end? Your signature used to read something like "getting a D and it's all my fault." So, if I remember correctly (and forgive me if I don't) you had an A, and then later had coffee or whatever with the OP after you promised NC, and that triggered D. Look at the whole picture, including your W's pain, and ask yourself if what your W is doing is any worse than what you did. It sounds like you have a double-standard. It also sounds like she is searching for someone to help heal her heart after it was broken 2x by her H. Again, not right, just perspective & empathy.

You say: "I'm going to stop feeling bad about the end of our marriage. It's becoming apparent that it's probably NOT all my fault like she'd have me believe." Well, I don't know what your W has said, but a BS may feel incredible amounts of pain, and if you had an A that caused that pain and damaged your M, then you should take responsibility. Yes, she probably contributed to the problems in the M that made the M ripe for your A. But LOrbit, you had other better & less devastating choices than having an A & those choices would have made your M better or, at the very least, not hurt your W as much. You should own your choice and realize that the A may have been the death blow to your M.

You say: "I'm becoming convinced that infidelity indicates that a marriage is irrevocably broken." That sounds like justification for your A. Maybe your M was that bad at the time, but it still doesn't excuse an A. As I noted above, you had choices - the A was the worst of all possible choices you could have made. You could have chosen to proceed directly to D and waited to date until the D was over.

My biggest concern for anyone on these boards, WS, BS, whomever, would be that we learn from the past and not repeat the same mistakes in our M or, if the M ends, when get involved with someone else. I think you are right when you say that M is difficult, but any relationship can be difficult. I hope your next relationship is much happier and easier. I am sorry that you are hurting because I have a sense of what that feels like, but rather than lashing out at your wife or using her behavior to justify your past actions, try to see things from her perspective and her pain.

That's all. Sorry I'm not very eloquent. That's why I shouldn't post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

BULL****T! I was a FBH in my first marriage who endured multiple infidelities from my XW and is now remarried to a wonderful woman who would take a bullet for me.

The problem I see is that we become so in love with a woman that we excuse all the red flags that tell us that this is not a woman to form a committed relationship with. In my case there were 2 main ones that I ignored when I was courting my XW, and they were:

1. Lying. I caught her lying to me about many things that even though were minor, were very telling about her ability and propensity to deceive.

2. Breaking promises. Two times out of ten, she would make promises to me only to then break them. Showed how much she cared about me.

There were others of course but those came after the marriage. I take full responsibility for ignoring them.

A couple of things I learned after my divorce were:

1. That it was far better to be single than married to a woman who would care more for a stranger than she would towards me, her H.

2. One must become vigilant of red flags and when they appear, and to jettison the relationship ASAP! NO SECOND CHANCES. My W, like me, was a BS [Her XH also had multiple affairs] in her first marriage and knows full well the devastation that an affair brings and therefore knows that if she were to have an affair, no matter how much I still loved her, I would divorce her without hesitation. It may sound harsh but when you turn 40 [I am now 47], life becomes a lot shorter and time becomes a much more precious commodity to waste on repeat of past dramas.

One of the things I have noticed in the years that I have been on these forums is that when a BH has conquered his fear of divorce, has made peace with the knowledge that the only person he controls is himself, and strives to make a happy life without his W, all of a sudden his WW often panics, ends her affair and states to him that she wants to work on the marriage. But afterwards, he makes the mistake of taking her back and not enforcing the conditions to rebuild the marriage and the WW goes back to her old ways [false recovery]. In such a situation I would agree with shock jock Tom Leykis' statement: "Dump that bit**".

So in closing ladies and gentlemen, there ARE many good women [and men] out there who would make great W [and H] but it takes WORK to find them.

TMCM

DeterminedDad,

There are woman out there who want a "good guy" I am in the position you were in (with the exception that I cannot confirm that my husband who wants to be my ex is/has had EA). I gave him everything, I did everything to try and make him happy...the only time I put my foot down when he wanted something was if it would take away from our daughter. And yet he is still not happy.

There are some people who will never be happy and it's not limited by gender.

NTS...I appreciate the perspective...but the message you're sending seems to distill down to "Don't complain...you have it coming."

I fully sympathize with my W...I can't empathize, never having experience what she has.

Her dating is again is not motivated by intense pain. I think she gave up on trying to fix this marriage when it became apparent that it was going to be hard work for us to have an MB style marriage.

She has ALWAYS expected ME to fix everything...make things easy for her. Well, there are some things I just couldn't do FOR her.

My 20 minute coffee with the OW (which, BTW, ended with me sending the OW on her way AND me telling W about it) was an excuse she used to get out...she has told me as much.

You know, the day before I started my A, I was pretty much in the same place. I suppose I should've just found a convenient excuse to get out, like she has.

We're 5 years past that affair. It's been a damn hard five years. I KNOW I gave it my best shot. I don't think she can say the same.

No, NTS...you can only play that betrayed spouse card only so long.

It's not a double standard...it was crappy when I did it, and it will be crappy when she does it.

In fact, she has the ADVANTAGE of understanding what it's like to be the betrayed, yet she's going to do it anyway...

THAT...in my book...makes it worse.

I've had five years to work through why I did what I did...I've dealt with ALL of that and changed the things about me that made me vulnerable. I did the hard work.

SHE gave up, NTS. THIS IS THE TRAGEDY.

Don't try to tell me that that she has that option. After stealing five years of my life trying to rebuild this marriage, she doesn't have the right to walk away like that any more than I do.

I know very well what she may be feeling...and it doesn't let her off the hook one whit.

I AM a good guy, I AM a great Dad. If she thinks she can find better, by God, she can have at it.

LOrbit,

I did not intend for the post to read "you have it coming" and I still don't think it reads that way. My post states upfront that I was writing with humility (not righteousness)- I apologize that it came across wrong.

I did not question whether you are a good person or not.
I did not excuse your W's actions.
I expressly stated that what your W doing now is, IMO, not ok regardless of what you may have done. (I even quoted the old saying, 2 wrongs don't make a right.)

All I did was ask you to consider her pain and not strike back. Many times a WS is motivated in part by the pain of unmet needs, and I think that should be taken into account to understand - not excuse - the WS/situation and how to make things better the next time. My point was that your W may have also been motivated by pain. You have clarified that pain is not her motivation. Ok.

I appreciate your response to my post, and I think it highlights another "red flag" to watch out for when dating. TMCM's post mentioned breaking promises as a red flag and that struck me because my exH used to break most of his promise, big & little, and he always thought his excuses made that ok. Your response notes that (hope I'm saying this correctly) your W always wanted you to make things easy for her, and when it came to a rough patch like Recovery, she wasn't willing to do the hard work. I think M can be hard work even without rough patches. So, this is another "red flag" to add to the list.

Ok - back to the main subject. I hope I have now clarified what I was trying to say.

All other issues aside... the children should not be "messengers" from parent to parent concerning each other's behavior.

The children seem to be overlooked here... do not ask your children what you wife is doing - ask your wife yourself if you want to know. If a child initiates such a discussion, tell them it's an inappropriate discussion and end it there.

Kids want their family back together - and they can also manipulate things to try to achieve that, or even to try to stir up trouble. I'm not suggesting your DD is doing this but it's a possibility, and it's not up to her to report your W's activities to you. If she's initiating that, ask her to stop - she'll end up respecting you more in the long run, and your relationship with her needs to stay strong, particularly if you aren't the primary guardian.

It's hard -- but I don't ask my kids about XH's activities, and I've asked my children to respond, if asked by their father about my activities, "You'll have to ask Mommy about that." Keep them out of the middle. If they volunteer info, I try to change the subject, despite my own insatiable curiosity. They are not the way to find out what he's doing. It's just wrong, period. I can't stop them if they want to talk to their father about what I'm doing - so I just try to conduct myself in a way that won't give them anything bad to say -- although I've made some mistakes in that regard too - but I've learned some lessons too.

I entered a relationship after separation - many reasons, and all of them "wrong". It ended soon enough, and again, I learned a lot about myself during that time. Personally I wanted to try to work things out with H, AFTER I had the other relationship (wasn't an A - occurred well after H moved out of our home) but at least now, it's not going to happen. Maybe someday - if he owns his junk... I've owned mine, but he's not to that point yet and perhaps never will be. He's in a long-distance relationship now, which I figure will burn out eventually - once that happens I guess I'll find out if he takes the same path as me and if he wants to try again on our relationship - but I'm not holding my breath. My M didn't end over an A, it ended over untreated mental health issues, and addictions, which led to lies, deceit and irresponsibility, but the betrayal is very similar. He did have an EA earlier in the M, and maybe even a PA or two but I can't prove those beyond a reasonable doubt. We got past that...but the depression and drug use was more than I could take. One thing is sure, there is no chance for reconciliation until he owns his flaws and works and proves he can change them - someday he may be at that point, or maybe not. Time will tell. Meanwhile I'm just moving forward with my life.

I can't explain your W's motivations, but I agree there could be a "revenge factor" at play, as well as a need to fill a void... perhaps not "good reasons" but they are her reasons. Usually such things are temporary at best. Time will tell if you two will be able to get past all this and work it out. A lot depends on the motivation of parties involved.

I've been a kid in the middle - my parents' separation and divorce was UGLY. 30 years later they still won't be in the same city together, let alone the same building or room. It sucked - and I hated when each ran the other down to my sister and me. Don't make the kids choose sides - nobody wins.

Peace,

H2U

"I'm becoming convinced that infidelity indicates that a marriage is irrevocably broken. Sure we can slap on a little tape and bondo and try to hobble on...but I becoming convince that I should've divorced her when I had my affair."

I think there is truth in this.

"With all due respect to the Harley's...marriage in general is hard. Marriage after an affair is impossible. I'm wondering why anyone would want to engage in either."

Perhaps this is why Dr. Harley says he would instantly divorce if either he or his wife had an affair.

I'm beginning to think there is little else but pain to be found in this path to a "recovered" marriage. At least your kids are grown.

I do know that if I, like you it seems, do divorce I will not place myself in the situation of marriage again. If I listed the pros vs. the cons I think the pros side would be decidedly light in comparison.

"With all due respect to the Harley's...marriage in general is hard. Marriage after an affair is impossible. I'm wondering why anyone would want to engage in either."

"Perhaps this is why Dr. Harley says he would instantly divorce if either he or his wife had an affair."

Wow, is that really true?

How can they be such proponents of surviving an affair if they themselves are not willing to take that road?

Can someone explain this to me?

Thank you.