Haven't posted in awhile, though things have been busy here. Long story short. Married almost 3 years, she has 3 children from previous marriage. D-day was in beginning of Sept, affair began in June.

Complicating things is the fact that my wife has been in her home country since September (Yes, I discovered the A while there) with her family until possible February (who are more enabling than I thought, more on that later), so our contact has been fairly infrequent since then.

She had been living with her sister/nephews,etc. until last week, when she moved into a smaller side 'apartment' next door.

I'd gone down there last week, since our eldest son was going to come back up here to the US. Different from the last time, I slept in a different bed, and affection from her was limited to a couple random hand holdings. No real arguements about anything, we got along fine. There was the usual her getting angry about something and taking it out on me a couple of times, but later on she apologized. I was only going to be staying for 4 days, but events caused me to stay an extra day. (By the way, seeing the kids again was wonderful!)

Anyway, strangest thing happened just a little while ago. Her ex-husband came to see me at my work. This is odd in inself since he and I had never been on speaking terms, really. Guess what he wanted to tell me? He apparently didn't know that I already knew about the A. What I didn't know was that right after I left for home, the OM was arriving there in her home country to see her. And now that she has her own apartment, she has carte blanche (sp?) to do whatever she wants. According to him, this isn't the first time that he'd been down there (not sure about this one).

I'd been reaching the end of my limits already, with me knowing that she's still telling a ton of lies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (no I'm not suprised, but it seems honesty is one of my big ENs). I know about her "secret" email address, and I know that although she's told me that she hasn't been making any plans with the OM, she actually has (telling the children that they may possibly marry in 6-9 months).

My question is this:

**Do I confront her and allow her to make a decision or talk about the subject?**

-or-

**Do I go straight to Plan B, telling her that I know and that I can't take anymore?**

Nobody9 (I may need to change my name, since this doesn't fit quite how I feel anymore)

I don't know .... what do you think is your best option? Assuming you want to try and save this marriage...

Plan B works best if your WW has been getting at least some of her important emotional needs met by you ... how do you stand in this area?

Well, since we are so far apart, chances for fulfilling of ENs has been pretty sparse. While I was there this last time I feel I did well. I listened to her when she was speaking, supported her when something was bothering her, we chatted and joked, gave her all my attention, was as affectionate as she would allow, played with the kids and gave them attention, was there financially for her (I state this since it apparently is an EN as well). I didn't LB at any point really, even though she got pissed at me a couple of times over little things (didn't know how to lock a certain kind of door, etc). This has been the same during our convo's over the phone, for the most part. I've been trying to basically be the best husband I can under the circumstances.

I do want to save the marriage, but I am finding it hard to want to be married to the person she is now. There are times when I don't feel an overwhelming need, or even any desire to contact her. Part of it is when I talk to her it reminds me of all the things that she is hiding that I know about. It's hard to not just come out and tell her that I know she is lying. I'm just feeling very tired and drained.
I'm sending her money to support her and our kids and she's using it to furnish an apartment that will allow her to live alone and have visits from the OM.

I just feel that she's cake-eating to the fullest right now, and she's not going to change her mind until she sees that she's really going to lose everything.

But like I said I'm not really sure what is the best option...confront her about what she is doing, but continue contact (kind of a D-Day 2) or just lay it all out and do a Plan B.

It's pretty easy to drift apart without those 15-hours a week of together time ... any chance to change that?

Not for a few months, I'm in the US and she's in Mexico. This week so far when I've tried to call she hasn't been there (now I know why). She hasn't logged into her IM account (the one I'm supposed to know about anyway, for all I know she's on 24/7 with the other one) since a week before I went down there.

Edit: Add on top of that the fact that she won't be back here for at least another 3 months. I'm not sure I can hold out that long...

This is odd .....


No one has started divorce proceedings, correct?

Where you live, how long does a divorce take? Can she get a 'quickie Mexican divorce' without your cooperation?

Nobody,

I kinda see Plan A/Plan B as a process. You need to be ready to Plan B, because Plan B is really about YOU. You detach from the situation and start moving on with your life. Often times the WW will wake up, miss you, rely completely on OM to such an extent that things do not work out. Yes, once you (and your money) are gone and the reality of the situation starts to sink in SOMETIMES they wake up. Plan B is much more effective if preceeded by a good Plan A but with her out of the country you really can't do any better than you already have without being a sucker.

Have you been sending her substantial sums of money???

If you divorce do you have many assets to which she would be entitled to split up???

(sidenote...with her gone you really could blow through any and all cash you have on yourself. If you have cash, stash it, or purchase personal property that you can take with you if you ever did split. I am not telling you to be deceptive or fraudulent but if she is going to leave you in the end you want her to realize in the divorce proceedings that she will get nothing).

Further, now that you know about the apartment and OM visiting you really can't be sending her YOUR hard earned money to support and enable her illicit affair. Withholding "marital money" will be seen as a love buster so you may consider, if you are ready, going to Plan B.

If you are contemplating Plan B. Then you will need a letter (look for examples herein). Your Plan B letter should be drafted and posted here for comment. Yours maybe can be a little longer (as if you are ever short of words) than most as your wife is far away and unlikely to harrass you during Plan B. Your letter sets out a clear path for her to follow back to the marriage where she can find you and your money. It will indicate the pain of seeing her is to great to continue contact. You will crush her fanasy that you and her will remain "friends" once this is said and done and that this is a consequence of her choices.

I know how attached to those children you are. That it will break your heart not to see them again. You can always change your mind later in life when you have actually recovered from this situation, IF YOU CHOOSE. But the way I see it she is gone to you right now and so are those kids. She will only use you or maniupulate you using the kids as long as you play nice. Playing nice will not get your wife back nor will it allow you to move on. Like I first said, Plan B is about you moving on...if she comes back to you, great...but it is about you.

Where do you think you stand, in your heart, in this PROCESS????

Mr. Wondering

Another question???

Did you ever discover who OM is and expose to his family? You really need to do this prior to Plan B.

Mr. W

Sorry it took me so long to respond, after work yesterday I was running all over the place. Since eldest son is back with me, he's finally getting re-enrolled in school so I've been gettinag all his supplies and getting paperwork filled out.

Which brings me to a sticky point regarding cutting off contact with the children, as well. ATM that won't be possible, since he's staying with me. Also, I've read other stories where BS's in Plan B had to balance contact with the children with NC with the WS. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, MrWondering that it is possible that she will try to use the children to manipulate me, and that is something I need to be wary of. I'm just trying to examine all angles.

As far as my feelings on the process, I'm feeling that it's time to move to the next step, even though our situation hasn't allowed a completely perfect Plan A. Although, even though D-Day was in Sept., I did actually (unknowingly) start Plan Aing her in June when I felt something was going on (flowers, changes in my behavior regarding attention and time out with the family, less time doing other things, trying to initiate conversation, etc). Since she's been down there, our contact has been limited severely, but that's due to her end of things (either not there or not online).

Assets and money: About a month ago I had spoken with a family/divorce lawyer, and according to him, since we don't really have any joint assets, there isn't anything to be split really, other than some appliances here and there.

I had been sending her quite a bit of money, because of the children and helping with the apartment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> because according to her they were all so crowded in my SIL's house. *If* I do send anything in the future, it would be some minimal amount just enough for food for the kids.

Which is another question I had. In regards to Plan B, I hear some people mention something about cutting off all contact exceopt in regards to finances and sending only what is *required*. Is this a state law thing requiring that even in separation there must be some support, or is there some other reason? I wish I could think of an example....

I'll respond to your's and pepper's other questions in a bit, I've got more stuff to do ATM (at work) and I don't want to lose my post. I'll be back in a little bit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding Pep's question of whether she's planning a quickie divorce while down there, I don't think that's what she's planning. I could be wrong, but it's just my gut feeling. I think what she was saying was that 6-9 months from then, which would translate to a few months after she comes back to the US. This would give her a chance to see if the OMs really willing to follow through on his promises before she "makes her decision".

Also, this statement was made to our son right after he had discovered what was happening and was calling her on it, so she may have been trying to justify it to him, IE.

Son: What's going on you can't have 2 boyfriends?
WW: No, it's ok, since I'm not going to be with Nobody9, anymore. Blah blah blah. Eventually, maybe in 6-9 months me and OM will get married.

Paraphrased with creative license since I only know what our eldest related to me. It's been hardest on him since he seems to be the only one who realizes the implications of what's going on. On our trip home he had a lot of questions about how I felt, and even made the statement that if we did split up, he'd rather stay with me. I told him that I'd love that but it would depend on his mother since I don't have any legal custody of him.

Anyway, as far as exposing the OM, when I had my appointment with MB, we talked about this, and it was suggested that I hold off for Plan B to do any further exposing, since all her family already knew, and her response was to cut herself off from the family members who didn't approve. I definitely *will* be exposing to the OM's family members I can track down, but many are in Brazil so it's kind of difficult. I had a number, but it came up with an entirely different name, so maybe it had been mistyped. I'm still digging though.

I'll start working on a Plan B letter, and I'll post it here for review.

Thanks guys for your great help!

Hello again,
I know this took a really long time. Holidays coupled with a really difficult time writing this caused a continuing stream of delays. I'd written this almost 5 time and each time it just didn't feel right. Not sure if at the time my heart simply wasn't in it.

Anyway, I got it written, and I'd appreciate any advice on anything I should reword, or anything I may have left out.
Also I was wondering if I should include some of the evidence of the affair (chat logs) along with the letter, for any who may not have known about the A beforehand (OM family for example). That way my W or the OM can't insist that I'm only making things up. Not sure, just a thought.

Here it is:


Dearest WS,

I love you so very much, and you have touched my life and heart like no other person ever has. I am so sorry for my actions that have helped lead us to this point. I never realized that you had felt so unhappy and lonely. If I had only realized this were so, I would have changed so much sooner. All my efforts over these past 7 months (ever since I realized that there was something happening) have been towards making things right between us, making changes that would make us both happier, and showing you just how much you truly mean to me.

However, I can no longer simply stand by and watch as you continue your affair with the OM. It simply hurts far too much. I cannot hold this marriage together alone, as a marriage is meant to be between two people, not one; and it definitely cannot survive when there are three people involved. Therefore, I am deciding to remove myself from this triangle; for the good of our marriage, as well as myself.

While you continue to have contact with the OM, I can no longer have any sort of contact with you. It simply hurts too much to see your actions and decisions regarding him and your affair, and the effects they have on those around you. I feel as though these effects, the secrets and untruths are all slowly killing the love and respect that I have felt for you all these years. If I don&#8217;t take this step, that love and respect may soon disappear entirely. These things are precious to me, and I don&#8217;t want to lose them&#8230;.

I still have hope for us, and I want to have the strength to rebuild our marriage and relationship should you choose to return to you family. We all miss you&#8230;I miss my wife and best friend so very much. It makes me so sad to see us separated so; that we can longer trust each other as we once did.

I realize that to fix the damage that has been done won&#8217;t be easy, and it may take much time. We won&#8217;t be able to rebuild the trust and affection we once had without work, help and a plan. I want this more than anything, but there are things that must be done and agreed to before I will be willing to undertake this process:

-Complete cessation of any and all contact with the OM forever. A &#8216;no-contact&#8217; letter (read and written by both of us) will need to be sent out, explaining that you will be choosing to work to save your marriage, and that he is not to attempt to contact you in any way. We will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure this happens (blocking/changing emails/messenger, changing phone numbers, moving to a different area, etc.). If he does contact you, do not respond, and tell me immediately, and we will work on cutting off that avenue of communication.
The OM&#8217;s existence in our lives has caused nothing but problems for our marriage and his continued involvement will only make any attempt at reconciliation impossible.

-Total and transparent honesty will be absolutely necessary. This is what will rebuild our trust in one another. We must be kindfully honest about our situation, our feelings about each other and others, our daily doings, and our plans and dreams for the future. We is one of the problems we had that led to our current situation&#8230;We simply need to feel that we can address our concerns with each other with gentle honesty and feel confident that they will be heard. This honesty includes being open about discussing our feelings about - and events surrounding - your affair.

-Absolute and undivided attention given to each other for a minimum of 15 hours a week (the more the better). This is time spent doing nothing but being focused on each other and nothing else. This means not playing on the computer or watching TV, but talking with eachother, being affectionate, going out together, etc. This is another large problem that led to where we are now. I feel that it was this lack of attention that caused you to feel so lonely for so long.

-Open discussion of any decisions we wish to make that affect both of us or our family, and any issues we may have with the other partner. We must be able talk about the issue (without arguing) and be able to arrive at a resolution or decision that makes both of us happy. If we cannot come to a mutually satisfying agreement regarding something that one wishes to do, then we won&#8217;t do it.
Neither of us should ever have to make sacrifices or &#8220;live with&#8221; something that bothers us to make the other partner happy, as this only leads to feelings of anger and resentment later on. Rather, we should be able to discuss and resolve any problems we should have before they become too great.

-Complete acceptance of responsibility for your actions and their effects, and an apology to those who have been affected. This is necessary so that we can begin to move past what has happened, remove the painful feelings associated with discussing the issue, and begin to heal the damage that has been done.

-Entrance into individual and marriage counseling to address the issues that led us here, and to help and guide us to reconciliation and a better and happier marriage. We cannot continue as we have been, and I do not desire to return to the same marriage we had before. I want to create a marriage that is so much better, happier, and satisfying for the both of us.

I know I cannot (and should not attempt to) force you to do anything. This decision is yours alone to make, and I am sure you will do what you feel is best. If you choose to contact me directly, it is necessary that you have accepted and understand the conditions I have listed here. If you cannot accept them, then I must insist that you do not contact me at all. If there is an emergency concerning the children, financial, or some similar issue that requires that you must contact me, you may send a message to me through your sister or my mother. I will respond to you similarly.

Take care of yourself, WS. I wish you only the best in your life&#8230;

I love you with all my heart,
Nobody9

Dear somebody,

I hope you don't mind that I've edited your Plan B letter. It is by no means that I disagree with your plan and you should have a plan. A WS does not have a plan or a map or a compass. Your list of hoops to jump through will appear to difficult, too much work, too much emotional turmoil ... A WS is about fun and fantasy and thrills...

Cut down to one hoop to jump through. NO CONTACT WITH OP.
If she makes it through that HOOP there is still withdrawal... then you can start negotiating the other hoops. A WS's mind is too myopic to cope with more than one hoop at a time.

Otherwise, I like your letter. I sympathise. We just want this pain and suffering to end. We see a way towards healing for our marriage ... but that takes two. WS is not there yet. Work on your own path towards healing. Detatchment. Letting go. Getting centered. Determining your own boundaries. It can be a path of spiritual growth if you so wish.

Prya for a warm heart, a calm mind, and a peaceful soul.

Hi N9

Change the subject heading on your first post on this thread to indicate you need feedback for PBL.

I read you PBL...its pretty good but I think you need to edit some its too long. Its good you know what boundaries you want, but it may be too overwhelming to list them all, it will come off like a list of demands to WS.

I have highlighted the things I would delete. Just my thoughts I'm sure others will be along shortly.
Dearest WS,

I love you so very much, and you have touched my life and heart like no other person ever has. I am so sorry for my actions that have helped lead us to this point. I never realized that you had felt so unhappy and lonely. If I had only realized this were so, I would have changed so much sooner. All my efforts over these past 7 months (ever since I realized that there was something happening) have been towards making things right between us, making changes that would make us both happier, and showing you just how much you truly mean to me.

However, I can no longer simply stand by and watch as you continue your affair with the OM. It simply hurts far too much. I cannot hold this marriage together alone, as a marriage is meant to be between two people, not one; and it definitely cannot survive when there are three people involved. Therefore, I am deciding to remove myself from this triangle; for the good of our marriage, as well as myself.

While you continue to have contact with the OM, I can no longer have any sort of contact with you. It simply hurts too much to see your actions and decisions regarding him and your affair, and the effects they have on those around you. I feel as though these effects, the secrets and untruths are all slowly killing the love and respect that I have felt for you all these years. If I don't take this step, that love and respect may soon disappear entirely. These things are precious to me, and I want to protect them I still have hope for us, and I want to have the strength to rebuild our marriage and relationship should you choose to return to you family. We all miss you; I miss my wife and best friend so very much. It makes me so sad to see us separated so; that we can longer trust each other as we once did.

I realize that to fix the damage that has been done won't be easy, and it may take much time. We won't be able to rebuild the trust and affection we once had without work, help and a plan. I want this more than anything, but there are things that must be done and agreed to before I will be willing to undertake this process.

Complete cessation of any and all contact with the OM forever. A &#8216;no-contact&#8217; letter (read and written by both of us) will need to be sent out, explaining that you will be choosing to work to save your marriage, and that he is not to attempt to contact you in any way. We will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure this happens (blocking/changing emails/messenger, changing phone numbers, moving to a different area, etc.). If he does contact you, do not respond, and tell me immediately, and we will work on cutting off that avenue of communication.... We cannot continue as we have been, and I do not desire to return to the same marriage we had before. I want to create a marriage that is so much better, happier, and satisfying for the both of us.

I know I cannot (and should not attempt to) force you to do anything. This decision is yours alone to make, and I am sure you will do what you feel is best. If you choose to contact me directly, it is necessary that you have accepted and understand the conditions I have listed here. If you cannot accept them, then I must insist that you do not contact me at all. If there is an emergency concerning the children, financial, or some similar issue that requires that you must contact me, you may send a message to me through your sister or my mother. I will respond to you similarly.

Take care of yourself, WS. I wish you only the best in your life.
I love you with all my heart,



PBL is a letter of hope and love...you stated You will not have contact with her as long as she is in contact with OM. The boundaries you have set up are excellent. But as long as there is contact is in place they are irrelavant (sp?) Establishing no contact open up to dialogue where you can discuss you boundaries. WS have short attention spans. All in all I think its a good letter with a heart felt message.

Good luck; God Bless

Hello Nobody,

I just got back in town after a 2 week absence so I have a lot of catching up to do at work so I must be brief.

1. Letter is too long (what else would I expect from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

2. You accept too much responsibility for the problems in your marriage prior to the affair...the affair is the number 1 problem...your problems before could have been addressed properly then and just as you seemingly were withdrawn from her there were healthier ways for her to get your attention rather than withdrawing from you and opening her heart to another. The affair is 100% her fault. You seem to be partially buying her rationalizations and justifications. You are not alone...most all BS's do this...however that's why these letters become much shorter after they are pared down by MB experts. Too much "blame accepting" only feeds their R & J and can even become fodder for the infidels...it is a delicate balance.

3. You do not need to overwhelm her with the details of a MB reconciliation plan. Her choice is to commit to back to a marriage or your moving on for you. You can indicate you guys would need a plan she just doesn't need all the details yet...not till one or two months into recovery. No contact is all you need and want for now.

4. A fogged out WW can not conceive of apologizing completely as you requested in your letter. It takes a few months away from the affair for them to clear their heads and realize their mistakes. Unfortunately, WS's never jump back into their marriages with such enthusiasm and asking for such may be an impossible hurdle.

You've got the right ideas. You've probably researched many of the letters here to develope your own. This is your letter so obviously whatever you think and do is more important than what I have to say. Additionally, I have never prepared my own Plan B letter (thank God) so my opinion is pretty much based on my experience seeing and reading on Plan B threads elsewhere.

I'll hopefully be able to get deeper into this later.

Good Luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s.- as far as documenting the affair I think you need only amend one sentence above:

However, I can no longer simply stand by and watch as you continue your affair with the OM.

Change to something like:

However, I can no longer simply stand by and watch as you maintain your destructive fantasy relationship with your illicit extra-marital affair partner, OM (full name, including middle initial if you got it).

*I'm still not happy with the above sentence.

Help! Plan B letter experts.

Wow, thanks everyone for really great advice! I did (or am doing) as you've suggested and cut out or altered most of the passages that you'd mentioned.

I completely agree about the listing of the boundaries being a bit much all at once(take baby steps). I cut them all out including the one about cutting off all contact, NC letter, etc. as I'd already stated above that I would have nothing to do with her while contact continues. Only thing I might alter there is to stress that *any* contact is unacceptable...

About the accepting too much blame, that makes a lot of sense, too. That's something I've been struggling with (as far as speaking with her and letting her know) since the beginning. However, I do feel that it is important to let her know that my actions did have an affect on her feelings *before the affair*, and that I regret that....

Hang on, having a thought.

What if I say something like (this is just a rough draft):
"I realize that how I was acting before caused you to feel so very lonely and I feel terrible for that, *however* if you had been unhappy in our marriage, there are so many ways I could have been made aware of the problem and so many ways that we could have made things better together. To decide to enter into an extramarital affair only serves to make these problems greater and causes unnecessary pain for all those involved."

I could probably still work on the phrasing, but you get the idea. That way I make it clear that I'm not accepting all the blame.

Looking forward to hearing more opinions, they're helping a lot! Like I said, I had a really hard time getting this written. For some reason the feeling just wasn't there and it didn't seem right, so I just plowed through it to get it done. Now with the changes it's starting to feel much...more right.

I'll finish doing this set of revisions and then I'll post the edited letter.


Oh and Mr. Wonderful, with the stuff I cut out, the letter now manages to fit onto one page! :P

Thanks a lot everyone!
Nobody9

Mr. Wonderful??? Now I don't know about that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wasn't Mr. Wonderful a pro wrastler?

I guess I always WONDERED why I had a W tatoo on my chest. Maybe I was meant to be Mr. Wonderful and not Mr. Wondering. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Back to the proposed sentence you had above:

To avoid her rolling her eyes and saying "I tried to warn him or tell him" --- all WS rationalize/justify themselves saying they "tried" to warn you with innocuous warnings...you could say something like "there were many ways we could have addressed these problems up to and including separation or filing for divorce however....

Good luck,

W

Whoops, got the name wrong LOL! My bad.

OK I'll try to work that into the letter. Prolly won't get it done until tomorrow though since at work seems to be the only place I can get time to work on this (funny how that works out....)

OK, I made some revisions based on the advice that I've been given, and I'm pretty happy with it. The only thing I'm not sure about is the 1st and 4th paragraph which originally had been all in the 1st (rewritten, split, and rearranged).

Not sure, maybe I'm jsut being overly critical here. Take a look and let me know what you think. Any advice is a great help (it already has been!)

Thanks,
Nobody9




Dearest WS,

I love you so very much, and you have touched my life and heart like no other person ever has. I want so much to be the person who touches yours in the same way... All my efforts over these past 7 months have been towards making things right between us, making changes that would make us both happier, and showing you just how much you truly mean to me.

However, I can no longer simply stand by and watch as you continue your destructive fantasy relationship with OM. It simply hurts far too much. I cannot hold this marriage together alone, as a marriage is meant to be between two people, not one; and it definitely cannot survive when there are three people involved. Therefore, I am deciding to remove myself from this triangle; for the good of our marriage, as well as myself.

While you continue to have contact with OM, I can no longer have any sort of contact with you. It simply hurts too much to see your actions and decisions regarding him and your affair, and the effects they have on those around you. I feel as though these effects, the secrets and untruths are all slowly killing the love and respect that I have felt for you all these years. If I don&#8217;t take this step, that love and respect may soon disappear entirely. These things are precious to me, and I want to protect them&#8230;.

I realize that how I was acting before caused you to feel so very lonely and I feel terrible for that, *however* if you had been unhappy in our marriage, there are so many ways we could have addressed these problems up to and including separation or filing for divorce in the event that they could not be resolved. To decide to enter into an extramarital affair only serves to make these problems greater and causes unnecessary pain for all those involved.

I still have hope for us, and I want to have the strength to rebuild our marriage and relationship should you choose to return to you family. We all miss you&#8230;I miss my wife and best friend so very much. It makes me so sad to see us separated so; that we can longer trust each other as we once did.

I realize that to fix the damage that has been done won&#8217;t be easy, and it may take much time. We won&#8217;t be able to rebuild the trust and affection we once had without work, help and a plan. I want this more than anything, but there are things that must be done and agreed to before I will be willing to undertake this process.

I know I cannot (and should not attempt to) force you to do anything. This decision is yours alone to make, and I am sure you will do what you feel is best. If there is an emergency concerning the children, financial, or some similar issue that requires that you must contact me, you may send a message to me through your sister or my mother. I will respond to you similarly.

Take care of yourself, WS. I wish you only the best in your life&#8230;

I love you with all my heart,
nobody9

/bump