SC, I had a male counselor encourage me to take my A to the PA level! I too would encourage you to only C with a female and someone pro M at that.

Thanks gang,

The counselor is a man. My H and I have been going to him for about three months now, and we both think he is good. My H is a pretty good judge of character, and has a very sensitive BS detector, so if HE likes/trusts him, that's saying something. We did not ask him outright if he is pro-marriage, but all indications are that he is. I'm going to keep tomorrow's appointment, but I'll definately keep my antennea up for anything that feels 'off'.

Waiting- thanks so much for the words of encouragement. I sincerely hope your situation improves soon.

--SC

good luck today SC

Thinking and praying for you today SC. You will do good.

WOL

JL,
I noticed you didn't say that you love your wife PASSIONATELY now. Just more. Was that an innocent ommission, or were you choosing your words carefuelly? I hope I haven't offended you by asking such a personal question, but you did open the door. And I have a good reason for asking.
--SC

SC,

Define Passionately for me and I will answer your question. It may not be as simple as you think. But, it is important that we are talking about the same things.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

You know what -- I think I'm going to withdraw the question. I'm just not sure it's relevant. At least not at this moment. (Though I'd like to reserve the option to re-submit it at a later date.)

The question popped into my mind when you first wrote that post. Then I impulsively decided to ask you about it after reading some of the comments on the FWW thread -- in particular from Mrs. Wondering about Mr. W and how she has felt about him from the beginning. It made me jealous, to be honest. And I started asking myself that same ol' question I've been asking since the beginning -- What has my relationship with my H been all about all these years? And can it become what I want/need? Did I ever -- and can I ever -- really love him?

It seems to me that most of the FWS's on this site who consider themselves recovered, and truely seem happy -- started out madly in love, lost it somewhere along the way, and found a way BACK to it. If there really are success stories about people who didn't have that to begin with, but have learned to develop it -- they are few and far between.

The problem -- as your most recent post suggests -- is that passion may be defined differently by different people. Also, It seems to me that some of us value and desire passion more than others. Some people really want their lives to be like a leisurly sail on a smooth-as-glass pond. Others of us would rather race schooners on the open sea. So what you have/want/need in your marriage may be quite different than what I have/want/need in mine.

For the record -- I'm not talking about that 'new love chemistry'. I fully understand that that kind of passion is not sustainable.

The reason why I'm backing off this whole thing right now is that I've come to the conclusion that I am one screwed-up chick. As eager as I am to figure things out with regard to my marriage -- I really need to figure out a few things about myself first. And change quite a few things too.

I realize how fortunate I am that my H is willing to hang in there with me in the meantime. I sincerely hope, in the long run, he doesn't end-up asking himself why the heck he bothered.

--SC

Okay, SC, I gotta ask... you posted a sailing analogy and piqued my curiosity. Are you a sailor?

No GBH,

I've been out on quite a few boats. Had a BF once who owned a small sailboat and we used to have a BLAST on it! But I just did what I was told. I'm not at all mechanically inclinded and I have absolutely NO sense of direction, so I'm not a sailor. I just mooch off my sailor friends and let them do all the real work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

--SC

That's the best (and least expensive way) to do it! Just curious because I am a sailor. And I prefer something in between the calm day across the pond stuff and offshore stuff. I like a good breeze that makes the boat go with maybe an occasional gust to keep us honest. While choppy seas and gusty winds are not always pleasant, it's rewarding when you can get through them. Kind of like a M, huh?

When I was deeply fogged, I liked to think of my H as a lighthouse guiding me back home. Corny as all get out, I know, but it helped me.

SC,

So you know - my H and I never had that new love passion that people talk about.

My H and I met and instantly became BEST friends. We spent 14 -16 hours a day together, went to the bars together, talked endlessly - played scrabble till the wee hours. People would joke and I would be like - ewwww - he's like my brother...but the thought was always in my head - man we get along SO well...maybe we are supposed to be together - maybe our other relationships failed because they were only based on passion and not on this friendship we have...

One night H and I had this big talk about the pros and cons on if we got together over drinks at a local bar. We had been friends for 3 or 4 months now. that night when he dropped me off - he kissed me. And even though i didn't feel that crazy passion - I felt this tenderness, this chemistry I hadn't felt before - it wasn't the wild sex passion feeling I had felt with others, but something different.

Next day - he moved in, and a year later we were married.

Over the years we still had the friendship, but we also started to be seperate...and I think that was hard for me.

Before, during and just after my affair...I had been convinced because that passion wasn't there like other relationships that I had married my H for the wrong reason - that I had only married my best friend and that's it. That it had been a mistake and maybe I married him cause he was strong and safe...

For me - the feelings did come back quick out of NC...and the memories. And I realized I didn't marry H for the wrong reasons. That albeit it wasn't the passion I had in my purely sexual relationships before H...it was a tenderness and love that I had only ever felt from him...it completed me.

One thing that helped me - is to remember the good points of when H and I got together - not how I was feeling now...but how I thought I felt then (whether I was fooled or not). It helped me remember that what I felt then really was real...that i did love him all along...and it had never been a mistake.

Like so many WS, I had completely rewritten my history so my marriage was a sham...I did this LONG before I met OM. I did this on my way down. i couldn't remember very many happy moments...I felt I had married too young and it had been a mistake.

Today I feel once again like I did before I started to fall - it wasn't a mistake and I was so full of love and emotion on my wedding day, and so was my H...

SC,

i can relate to what you are saying. and i know what you mean about feeling jealous.

look at my situation, i cheated on my H while i was engaged!!! that is not the behavior of someone madly in love just before a wedding. and so like you i questioned and questioned, did i ever love H, and if not how can it ever work???

and i think you are wise to be withdrawling the question as you initially posed it. keep working on understanding you first.

and this is why....

Did i like (i say like instead of love because to me liking a person is really really important!!) my H when i first met him? ABSOLUTELY.

Did i think he was cute and funny and generally a great guy? yes, yes and yes. I danced around the house with that single yellow rose he had delivered to my house after that first week of knowing me.

As we got to know each other better, i really enjoyed the kissing we did in the front seat of his car. I loved putting my fingers thru his hair. I liked his family and (most of) his friends.

But when asked the question: Was I madly in love with him?? I have to pause and that worries me. or i should say that used to worry me, because i now understand why i used to pause.

I was not a healthy enough person to be capable of changing my feelings for him into the action of love, i really wasn't. i tried at times, i really did, but i had too many hurts, wounds and general fear to take that real step needed to love.

trust.

and without trust, it's really had to do the actions of love which requires true and complete commitment.

part of me always needed to keep an escape route ready, just in case. i was always too scared to give him me completely. i see that now.

"two shall become one" that is how it is supposed to be. and once you are one, there is no escaping, there is no need to escape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

not if there is trust.

trust that the other will keep their vows, to love, honor, cherish and forsake all others for you.

that is the action of love. without doing true actions of love, a person can not experience the true/deep feeling of being in love.

i was not able to do that. truely trust and become one with my husband.

so like i said at the start, you are doing well, keep working on understanding yourself.

SC,

You can ask whenever you are ready. But, I think in your asking and considering the question you are learning new things about yourself. That is really the point of this and that is to offer feed back in a manner that people learn about themselves.

You got some great feedback from Dorry and FL and I think you would do well to consider it.

I will offer you a thought that might help you. The thought is that the answer to your question changes with age. I don't mean as we age in the marriage but I mean the age that you met and married your spouse.

The data is clear that from a longevity standpoint marriages that occur in our late 20's or early 30's have the fewest divorces, IF they are first marriages. Yet, it is clear to me (if no one else <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) that 'passion' as protrayed in movies and the media is often highest in teenagers, and early 20's couples. Sex drive is stronger, innocence is higher, you name it.

So what happens to those that marry in their late 20's, early 30's etc? By some standards they don't have the "passion" of younger couples, but they have something else.

And that something else is why I asked you to define passion for me before I answered. I was very passionate with a variety of women long before I married, but I did not want to marry many of them.

Hope things go well with you in your counseling and hang in there. You will find yourself sooner than you think.

God Bless,

JL

OK...I'm going to throw my perspective into this and I sincerely hope that no one thinks I am crashing their party.

I met my xw when I was 19, she was 18. It was in college. Hot, steamy, and stormy. We got engaged after 6 months. 6 months later after a very ugly episode I broke up with her and went on a "bender". I had told her I'd talk to you in a week we're done as far as I am concerned. Immediate no contact with her, refused. Night #1- bedded someone I should not have. Regrets, lot of them. After the week I realized I loved xw. I lied. Entire college community knew of my escapades..I lied still.

Fast forward to marriage 3 years later. Hot, heavy and stormy. Emotional, passionate. I travel a lot for work with teams of recent college graduates, younger and attractive! W thinks I am a manwhore, I am not, not even an EA. She gets pregnant to "save M"..I had no idea we were in that much trouble! Has another 1.5 years after first. We're growing apart. Continues for period. She starts new job, new people, new men..she is traveling. She starts EA / PA in 1998, asks for divorce in 1999. I refuse. She breaks off PA...starts EA with coworker...for 4 years...NC was tough due to job...(I had no idea of EA definition). We continue down ugly road until late 2002 when she asks for separation. I refuse, eventually move out with out sep papers signed, move back in, over period of 22 months SF X4!!! Until I come home from work to police in my driveway D- papers served, OOP in place...we divorce...I stay close due to children...hear rumors of her old PA (aren't "friends" great when THEY want to get in your pants??) She get angry cause of my "dating" habits and rekindles EA with coworker to PA...I go plan B....dark...very dark...I have a serious relationship with someone else..it was good I felt alive....but....I did not feel about her the way I did xw...so...

it's been 18 months since we reconciled....

It is better than it ever was. All of it. We're open and honest...and yes...passionate like we never knew...bring to tears kind of passion....

so...it happens...there is no other woman that has ever...and I mean ever made me feel like she does and she feels the same way....

Good luck to everyone and the main thing I see with this thread is people being honest with the person that stares back at them from the mirror...themselves...

JL -- Thanks for *partially* answering the question I *un-asked*. lol. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I was 25 when I was married. Does that count as "late 20's"? As for the counseling, I posted about that on the FWW thread. Suffice it to say, the first session was BRUTAL. It was two days ago and I'm still pretty shaken-up. But I guess that's what counseling is supposed to be all about, right? Shaking things up.

Dorry -- Thank you so much for sharing all that. You had alluded to some of that stuff in previous posts to me, but never really laid it out that way. Our stories do have some similarities. One big difference -- I actually had misgivings ON my wedding day. I can't even stand to watch the video of my wedding ceremony because I can see it on my face. (Ouch! That was no fun to say "out loud")

Which brings me to...

FL -- YOU, my friend, may have just scored a bullseye on the the target of my psyche!:


This may very well be the case with me, too. In fact, the evidence is mounting that it is.

All this time, I have been trying to figure out WHY I would marry a man I didn't love, stay with him for 13 years, and have two kids with him. And what I should do about it, now that I've finally acknowledged that this is the case.

Perhaps the question really is: Was I even capable of loving him? Or anyone? And did I manage to choose "the right one" for me despite myself? I gotta be honest. It seems like somewhat of a longshot to me. I mean, how lucky does a girl have to be to snare the right guy even though she's screwed-up in the head (and heart)? But I'm at least willing to entertain the possibility.

Oh what a relief!!!! To think that perhaps I wasn't so sick and twisted that a talked myself into a marriage that was doomed from the start. But rather, that I was so sick and twisted that I was incapable of love!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> (Have I mentioned that I have a TRUELY sick SENSE OF HUMOR, as well?)

--SC

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you have an excellent sense of humor.

hey, i've been meaning to ask... what was that about you being famous??? something "we" should all know about, like are we talking locally famous, US famous, Internationally famous?

of course, feel free to ignore me completely. i would if i were you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL!
I will say only this. If I told you my name, at least a few people here -- not everyone, but a few -- would know who I am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Miss famous cookie teehee lol

it's OK Hillary .... the jig is up

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Send Me,

I didn't see your post at first. I was typing mine at the same time (takes me a looonnnng time to type a post when I'm home in the afternoons with my kids, cuz I get interrupted every 2 secs, then have to try to get my train of thought back.)

Anyway, I'm so glad you crashed the party! I've seen a lot of people taken to task around here because they want passion in their lives and relationships -- especially WS's who say they have no passion for their BS's. They've been called "immature" and "shallow".. and have been told to "grow up, already." They've been told that all their future relationships are doomed because they have no idea what real love is.

I personally, do not think that's fair. Everyone is different. Why is someone shallow and immature because they like to feel their heart pumping and the blood rushing through their veins? What's so WRONG with that?

I have a good friend who has been married for 15 or 16 years. She says she and her husband had a lot of passion for each other in the beginning, and kept it going at a pretty high level for many years, and still have it on-and-off. Over the last couple of years, there's been more conflict between them (a type of passion itself, no?) which has put more of a strain on their relationship. But they're trying to work it out. And one of their goals together it to rekindle the passion as much, and as often, as possible.

Soooo... I ask you all... are these two wonderful people who have been married for 15/16 years... who have never cheated on one another... and who raised two beautiful daughters -- immature and shallow because they want to keep the passion in their marriage alive?

Or is it only off-limits for those of us who -- for all sorts of different reasons -- married someone with whom we shared little or no passion, and now realize that it's something we no longer want to live without?


--SC