This is partially a response to another post, but I am just going on and need to know what to do. Stoptheworld suggesteed asking him for help with household duties in "What now", but I do not know my limits and am confused about Plan A which I will also post about with a little redundancy, sorry.

Anyway, we have a condo, no lawn. Currently, my house is a wreck. Mucho crap piled around. A computer room with wires, parts, boxes, sh%% everywhere. His workroom which is the same way. The w/r is his mess which I am hoping he will clean when he gathers tools ecetera to take to his new apartment. I honestly do not want to keep him from this stuff because it gives him time away from her and gives him time to think. It is a release that does not include her and gives me the opportunity to enjoy his accomplishments. He is very talented and versatile.

The computer room is 90% his junk and he has said that most could be tossed, but I do not know what and I really need some order. This has had me down for a long time. I am not a good housekeeper by any means, work and full time school, but it has gotten ridiculous and it is not mostly...my doing as a whole. General house wreck, absolutely 60/40 my bad. My space in C/R is a wreck, but it is 1/4 of the whole room and not piled to the rafters. Should I ask for help sorting out crap after mine is organized in a few weeks or so? Wait? This is not really a fun thing, but it would get him here. Or he will tell me to throw it all away.

I have an immensely attractive 1970's lime green pull out couch with duct tape on the arms, bad cats...um yeah, you get the picture. I have been wanting a new couch for 4 years because my old one was dead and friends offered this one because we didn't think we could afford one(paying off credit card bills). We threw the old one away and this arrived and it was worse, minus the duct tape on the old one. My cats have reformed, but I have wanted a leather couch for 10 years and I can afford to buy one within the next four months. Should I or no? It would certainly make the LR more inviting.

My house has been in constant remodel mode for 5 years. yuck. Another bug for both of us I am sure. We did the kitchen together which is lovely, but still needs some molding. The back bathroom is not done. It needs some texture, a little more paint and the sink and shower head must be put in. I am telling you this man can do ANYTHING, that is one of the things I love about him. Should I hire someone to do it or ask him to help me...It was our project....in a month or so? Or is it too much?

Exposed yesterday and he is outraged because I contacted her family/friend. After yelling on the phone for 15 minutes yesterday when he came over we talked he said so much that didn't make sense. Much is posted in "help" this is continuation. He wanted to go and do things by himself and I wouldn't let him. I said well what did you want to do? He said he would have liked to go hiking. I asked why he didn't. He said because I would want to go(we did very rarely). I said sure, but if he wanted to go by himself that would have been fine too. Why didn't he just say he wanted to go by himself? Everyone needs some time.

The end of 2004 he started ragging on me about going horseback riding on one of our days off. He said I was doing this and it was a day we could spend together, but I went every week. I started going only periodically and asking him to go hiking or picnic or whatever. Always a reason why not.

Big blow up in beginning of 2005 about everything always being about me. Everything on my schedule and I was #1. Now I would be lucky to be number 3, 4 or 5.

I have gone through a lot of changes over the past 4 years. I lost 170 pounds and started back to school full time. He thinks I left him emotionally. I guess I did to a point. I didn't mean to and I didn't realize it. I was on an online support group for my weightloss and he was ignored. My fault, but the changes were so very hard for me. I have been fat my whole life. I was so very selfish and egocentric. He tried so hard to be there for me.

Men started to "see" me which I think freaked him out though I would never betray him and rebuffed them and set limits in myself, okay, this is not okay. I was weirded out, still am. Now that I am more attractive and becoming more independent is he afraid? I wonder.

Office I worked at was bought out and my job went away. I was still there, but I am professionally ambitious and was bored out of my mind. Very difficult, once again, all about me.

Started back to school full time. Left him alone again. Still working full time also....changed jobs. I was going back to school for both of us. He had found a career he loved and I was bored. I am doing this for both of us. I love him and I hate my career. His mom, is getting older and I love her too and she will need support that currently we cannot give her. I think he feels I am leaving him behind. My MIL lived with us for 2+ years to get on her feet and she is doing so well. It was very hard. I am so proud of her, but she is 350+ pounds and not as healthy as I would like. I am worried about her and her resources are limited. I feel like I must do something to be able to support her, and us and as much as I love her, she can never move in with us again.

Didn't have time to only do things together alone. We are very involved in a club that takes a lot of time. We love it, but when I was not studying all our time together was with other people.

He blew up the beginning of this year and said it had been about me from the beginning and was now going to be about him. I would be lucky if I was 3,4,5 on his list of priorities. I did a 180. I smothered him with attention. I didn't mean to smother him, but I did.

He left me emotionally, completely and shared everything with this OW. I kept asking what I could do and what he needed. He gave me nothing.

After the exposure, he is so furious. OMG. He said I had no right to involve her family and thinks I am vindictive. I am so sad that I have pushed them closer in their hated of me.... at least for now.

I told him that I loved him and wanted to work it out and I thought we could throughout our conversation. He kept telling me that after what I did he couldn't and didn't want to. I told him that I did what I did to save our marriage and that in order to heal she must be gone. He said I did not accomplish this and that she told him to stay away from me for his own safety. I just told him I loved him and that we could get through this and he said I didn't listen to him that he was done. This happened several times. Perhaps it was an error, was it? I am a little confused about what my behavior should be.

He continued to tell me I was obsessed with Julie and it was not about her.

He does not believe in an EA. I told him she had to go in order to heal and he said that he did not do that to his friends.....I said, but you do this to your wife?

He even told me if I could leave her out of it that we may be able to work through this. I shook my head and he was mad that I couldn't.

He said I was having an EA with the 5 girlfriends I was seeking support with and I said no that I could share anything with him that I had told them, but that I wasn't attracted to women so it did not open a door to a physical affair either.

Sorry this is so long. I am rambling a bit. I would appreciate any input though because I am freaking. Especially about pushing them into eachother's arms, but if they did, it also proves my point as does so much more.

Ok Lost, I know exactly where you are at so lets just take a breath here and sort through this.

Firstly, the house. I can relate here. I have never been an A+ housekeeper either. I was raised in a messed up family and did not really know what the heck my role was a wife was. I am just learning now, at 34, thanks to MB, and my MIL, what my role should have been all this time. I was always very resentful that I worked full time and WH worked full time but it was still expected of ME to do 100% of all house work. I know my h likes an organized clean neat house. I was always like well than get up off of your a** and help me out and it would be nice and neat and clean, with kids and work I didn't want to do it all. I have later learned it is a big EN of his I was not meeting. man, hindsight is 20/20 and I wish I had had MB a LONG time ago and a lot of mess would have been avoided. But I digress, I can only go with what I have now. Since h left in July I have been redoing everything in the home. There was so much I always wanted to do before but wanted H to be enthusiastically involved with me. He was not as the past 2 years or so he has been breaking inside and it was just impossible to get anything from him. But you know what I have learned? I am a pretty good painter and decorator all by myself! I painted my living room and hallway, new border, got rid of a bunch of stuff, etc. Looks great. Got rid of old couch, put in new one. Did computer room up and just finished dd room today. It proves to me I can do it, keeps me busy, and shows h my words are not shallow, I am doing the things I say. If I were you, heck yes get that house in order, get a new couch, do it all up! He will notice! Mine notices, I can tell. He would Never give me the satisifaction of a "boy, it looks nice in here" but I can tell he sees the changes. Yours will too.

The losing weight.... well, if you have always been heavy it can be something for a spouse to get used to the new you, the new looks you get, etc... I have been up and down our whole marriage. And in the past 2 + years with things really bad, h sleeping on couch, my losing my job because company closed, etc... lots of stuff, I got realllly depressed and gained over 100 pounds... that just pushed h away further as h is big in the last few years on physical attractiveness... so I kicked myself in the butt this year, quit smoking and have lost almost 70 pounds so far. I know no man will ever bring me that low again. But he notices. And I will be at goal I plan on by the time he gets back from Iraq in May. So I think you looking your best is a good thing and great for you. Be someone he can be proud of.

Plan A.... can't help much there. I am sorta doing that and have been since last May but more for me than him. H did say he noticed my changes and he thought they were good for me. He is not here now as we both decided he needed to move out. But I still do the plan A positive stuff for me and I am sure he notices. I DO NOT ask my h for any help in the house. First off he probably would not do it. And for me, I need him to see, as when we were separated before, that I can do things without him. Not for everyone but he always thinks I cannot survive without him. He is always surprised that I get someone to do dump runs, or move stuff for me, etc... In my case I don't feel it benefits me to be "helpless" it just makes him say "see, you can't do this stuff without me" That is your choice for your sitch.

Again, your h is in a fog and he will be mad for awhile. It will take time and loads of patience. There will be days you just cannot see the light of day and want to give up. I have had them big time. I had pretty much convinced myself to throw in the towel and say screw it. But thanks for my church and my MIL I am leaving the option open for now for h to come home if and when he stops living this life he is living. We are praying and I am changing my tune and being more cooperative and nice to him. Not a doormat, but being nice instead of venomous mad about ow. We are legally separated, but as long as we are still married I will let the door be open for now. He is going to Iraq and some seem to feel that that time away will help him see the light of day. We shall see. I am living my life, not interfering in his, and making my changes for me. I know if he does come back we will have a much better marriage than we have ever had from what I have learned here. And if he does not I am still in a better place and a much better person than I ever was. make the changes for YOU! Plan A for you. Get the books on this site. Read read read and read some more. It is all valuable information.

Keep posting. Keep breathing. Don't let your emotions get the best of you. I have had to learn that one big time and am still working on it. I am VERY reactionary. I have had t learn to stop and breath and think before reacting. Trust me it is the only way and it has helped me to get some control over this mouth of mine! LOL

we are here for you as I always say. The vets here probably can advise you better than I as my M is still a huge mess with h living with ow currently until he returns from iraq, 2 kids in counseling because of this mess, etc. I am no expert at all. Just been there done that with where you are at right now. You will get through this. Just take one step at a time and have a plan. Write some things down and have a plan! hugs, mlhb

Your husband is babbling. He is saying the exact same thing that they all say, word for word. He will calm down.

In the meantime, you need to be happy, take care of yourself and your home. I know it will be very hard. But it is necessary.

Start cleaning it up and getting it into shape. You can check out flylady.com for some tips. I know you don't have a lot of time, but if you just spend 5 minutes a day in each room, you can make headway.

He has also given you clues about the hiking and doing things. School and working is hard, and lots of folks trying to make a better life run into marriage problems.

Here is Pep's post -

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

This is part of the problem though. I am very independent. I can support myself. I can do things myself.or get things done anyway.... When we started dating 13 years ago, I was a mess and had no direction and weighed 240+ pounds. I was insecure in myself and other than this situation, now I am not. I do not want another man. I have not ever given him any reason to think I do that I know of.

Now I have one degree and I am getting another. He does not have one at all, but because he is so talented, hands on and can do anything he sets his mind to he has a wonderful, profitable and satisying career. I was bored with my career which is ONE of the reasons I went back to school. I am also professionally very ambitious which he is not.

I can't help but wonder if he thinks I do not need him anymore. If he thinks I want more than him. Maybe I am wrong, that is the point, I just do not know.

Like I said, I can do it myself, but I do think that is some of the problem.....which really sucks.

Should I continue to tell him I want to work on our marriage even though he doesn't?

Should I continue tell him I think we can work through this and be strong again despite his continued objections?

Yes, I know I just exposed him yesterday and he is bent.

I feel like I am beating him to death with it so I think I should let it go for a while, but I have read so much and it seems vague and so much. Am I making a mistake and love busting by telling him I love him and want to work it out when he tells me he doesn't? He says I am being unreasonable and not listening to him as always.

Some of that is the not listening to the fact that they are just friends, but most is because I am insisting we can work it out. Do I need to lay off?

Can I still explain that she needs to go or is it time to let them run their course.......if they will?

I will start getting the books as soon as I have my account access up and running. Right now I do not have any money until I get paid next Friday. Are they available in stores so I do not have to wait for shipping?

Do you have Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley? If not, you should get the book pronto. It is hard to help you here when you don't have the foundational understanding of the elements of an affair. Can you go get this book tomorrow and speed read it?

Lost, you are listening to him say that they are "just friends," that is not the problem. The problem is that you don't accept that it is anything less than an affair. Nor should you pretend that it is. Don't aide and abet him in this game. On the other hand, don't argue about it, but firmly let him know that you are not fooled by that for a minute and you understand that the biggest problem in your marriage is his affair and he needs to get rid of the OW. Don't veer from that point.

In the meantime, I would focus on a serious program of attraction. Don't lovebust him [find out the PROPER meaning so you don't misunderstand and think it means anything the WS doesn't like], do your best to meet his needs. Clean up your dang house and start trying to look your best at all times. Make your home inviting. Act in an attractive manner when you deal with him.

As far as the book is concerned some public library's have it or you could go to Borders buy a cup of coffee and speed read it right there in the Border's Cafe.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - When he said he might work on things with you if you back off on the Julie issue that is pure manipulation to get you to back off. I've said this quite a few times here:

Anything you say or that he can get you to agree to that further enables or assists him maintaining and deeping his relationship with Julie will be acknowledged, encouraged and appreciated...Anything which has nothing to do with the affair will be ignored and anything that makes the affair more difficult will be met by resistance. That resistance will take the form of anger, manipulation, or even unexpected kindness...whatever works to get you to stop confronting and attacking his addiction.

P.S.S. - This situation is in no way your fault.

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN!! Bravo!

Okay, I am not a speed reader, but I am going to get Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley now. Thank goodness for the holidays. They are open till midnight. HOpefully he did not spend a bunch of money and his apartment check won't bounce.....hmmmm, maybe I should fill up on gas to since I have no $ till next Friday?

I know I need to read it all, but any quick start chapters? I am out the door.

Thank you all so much and I will talk to you soon.

Yes.

But...don't be a nag about it.

I too have always been an independant and self-reliant woman that can get things done. I can relate. You have tons of projects available to you to work on in your home. Start working on them yourself! When I asked my WH to mow the lawn I also asked him how to start and operate the blower, edger, etc. (they are these big gas powered jobs and I had no clue at the time) He quickly told me and of course none of it registered. So, I looked online, found the instructions and did it myself. Voila! When he came over to mow the lawn, I would get out with him and edge and blow the yard, etc. Then I would thank him for his work and send him on his way. (again...I've got places to go..people to see...)

I used that brief time to allow him to catch glimpses of what I had been doing. I cleaned the house (major task 'cause I totally suck at keeping up on it), moved his crap into the storage room, tossed what had been sitting there forever and he wouldn't commit whether he wanted it or not.

I only talked to him maybe once or twice a week on the phone during this time. WH needed to "sort things out for himself" Once you've started reading some of the books you'll get a much better idea of Plan A and Plan B.

Have you sought counceling for yourself? Losing that much weight is like discovering a new person! Maybe it would be a good thing for you to talk to someone about your own fears regarding the new healthy you.

I went through a period of listening to WH when he would call and spit his venom at me. Finally, I started to wise up and would tell him, calmly, that when he can talk to me calmly and respectfully, I'll listen.

I don't want to steer you wrong so I'm only telling you how I handled my situation. MelodyLane, Orchid, Pepperband, believer, mimi and others all better able to coach you than I am.

They have been around much longer and are much farther into their healing than I am, thus better at that.

You can do this. Keep breathing...

Lost, a IC I once had who was excellent and helped me so much said to me this: you have ONE conversation with your h about how you feel about him, that you love him, what you hope to happen, etc. You then tell him once that you said what you had to say, and that you won't be bringing this up anymore. That the door is open if and when he is ready to discuss things but you are not going to bug him or push him, you are going to go on with your life. I look back now and feel she was very wise and I should have listened to her way more than I did back then. She was basically telling me to Plan A. She kept telling me over and over that h would notice if I made changes, that he would notice if I was taking care of myself. He would notice me going on with life and living! And he would like that. And I believe her to be right. My h almost breathed a sigh of relief when we had that conversation. Simply because I had been bugging the he** out of him! calling him, crying to him, sending him notes, asking him all the time if he was coming home, etc. It gave him power to know he could do what he wanted and I was home shriveled up in a ball crying and pining for him. I took that power back by living my own life, being happy, doing wonderful things. And left the ball in HIS court for when he was ready, minus owomen, etc, to come home. Do you see what I am saying. I am doing her advice more so now than I did before when we separated. If I had stuck to her advice before we probably wouldn't be separated now... I am a very slow learner sometimes and stubborn as all get out.

Also, when you do need to have this talk with him, never demand, ask. I said "wh, I would like to talk to you if that would be ok. It will be brief and I wondered if I could have a few minutes of your time to do it?" That way it looks like you are being respectful and asking him if it is ok. He is listening because he gave the ok, not because you are nagging. Continued relationship talk with push him away in my opinion. and right now he will just hurt you with " I am never coming back" talk. You don't need that.

IT is not easy to live your life, not to worry, not to overthink. I know, I am an expert at that stuff! But I am doing more and more and I am getting out there. H doesn't want to come back to the woman I was, he obviously needs someone who can meet his needs and not be a lump on a log like I was. I am trying to show him by my actions that I can be that person. My H when we separated before said he was never coming home, etc.. very angry, etc. but he did eventually. Unfortunately we didn't have the tools to make him coming home work. Wish I had had this site and should have continued with my IC to get me through. I have the tools now and if he comes home I know it will be different. He has said in anger he is never coming home again,etc. All kinds of babble and a lot of narcissitic stuff. But always in anger. Doesn't mean he won't change his mind once he has had some time to cool off, had time to really think, had time for reality to set in. He is stubborn too so patience is a biggy here. But you can do this. Everyone is offering you great advice. mlhb

I am in counselling now, but it is because of this. I should have saught professional counselling after and during the weightloss. I was on an online group and it was very helpful to have others going through what I was, but WH felt I was deserting him for that group and I phased it out. I spent a lot of time there and not with him.

I am weirded out by so many things with my weight. When we married I was over 300. I was 158 6 weeks ago and now I am 140 again.

I freaked out when I got attention from men. It made me very uncomfortable when they would tell me I was beautiful. Of course, my husband has told me that maybe 10 times throughout our 13 year relationship. I hate that he never thought to compliment me on my appearance. It hurt a lot. Before this, always and he would only say it if I brought it up. Yet, I have others telling me almost everyday. Weird and uncomfortable still.

I hear ya lost. My h only told me a handful of time in 10 years I looked nice or was beautiful, mostly when we first met. After years of never hearing it, it is hard. I know I am an attractive woman. When I am at my best and taking care of me I tan, get my hair done, dress great, etc. A regular blonde bomber and I am very proud of that. I like to look nice. Think he would tell me I looked good? I wanted him to have someone to be proud of and he never said a word. I guess the fact that he would go somewhere with me was enuff to say he was proud because once I got depressed and the weight piled on wh wouldn't go anywhere with me, like he was embarrassed. That of course threw me into bigger depression. But when I was at my best it opened the door to an ea for me. There were men who told me I was hot I was beautiful and I was like why can't my h say that stuff? wrong of me but that attention I was dying for. When I talked to h about it he just said "I am not that kind of guy who says stuff like that" well, it is a need of mine buddy! But I hear ya. I was younger than and more vulnerable. Now, I look good for me. I know h notices that I am getting back down there and always look nice. I used to be in the house in sweats all day now I dress everyday even if I am just cleaning I wear jeans and a stylish top. It makes a difference even in how I feel.

Hugs, mlhb

[quote]he just said "I am not that kind of guy who says stuff like that" well, it is a need of mine buddy! But I hear ya.

Yeah, I got the same thing. He actually got mad at me on our anniversary this year because he was taking me to dinner and when he got home I was wearing this great black pants suit that is very classic, but a little dressy and looks great on me. He told me that he didn't have anything nice to wear. I said what about your sport coat? More back and forth. He said no, so I changed. He didn't even say I looked nice and was really a jerk about it.

Okay, so WH was supposed to be here between 9-10 to pick up some work stuff; he told me probably a little after 9. Yes, he is perpetually late for everything. He has not called and is not here; it is 940. He knows my friend is coming at 10 (she is running a little late though) and that I need to help her get dressed to go to the event today(not a little thing, her dress is insane-full Spanish court regalia, corset, bum roll, just humongous) and she will need to help me. I have a tight schedule and he knows it. I feel this is so inconsiderate. If he calls me after 1030 or shows up can I tell him that I am sorry if this is an inconvenience for him, but that we are getting dressed and rushing and that he will have to come again another day? help?

Sorry, he still hasn't called and I am sure he knows that pisses me off....1010am. I just wanted to know if I let him get his stuff when it is so inconvenient for me.....if I should do that or if that makes me a doormat?

I do not mean to be a bug.

Lost, of course you would tell him to come another time. I am confused why you would even ask.

I didn't he came we talked. It was so hard. I will have to tell you later. I have to go. I jsut have to keep from falling apart. he is jsut so wrong. i am falling apart. i need to buck up. i have to go.

he said he loved me and didn't want to hurt me, but he loved her too. and i said that is why it is an affair. it is what it is. He didn't deny. I know they have slept together now. i hate him