Sorry but I can't help but think you need to cut your losses. She's never had kids...she's clueless when it comes to how much attention they need...she's never had to make sure the "family" is fed and tended to.

I can't imagine sleeping until 2 while at a "boyfriends" house. Then again I have 2 kids and it's not an option.

I wish you the best...you have a tough decision ahead of you.

HUGS

AGG, I'm really trying not to be judgemental here b/c G really sounds like a lovely person, but I just cannot fathom a grown woman sleeping well into the afternoon. Just blows my mind. This is something I may have done in college cuz I was out until 4 am, but now?? I can relate to her being a night owl, but 2pm?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Maybe if I worked nights.....

Ok, so she's expressed an interest in changing that, so what happened this past weekend? Why didn't she? Seems like it would have been a nice opportunity to participate in the day to day stuff w/ your kids and a good bonding opportunity. I take it you didn't discuss your feelings with her about this at the time?

I can understand your frustration and feelings of resentment. Absolutely, and this is just the beginning AGG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You are already feeling resentment, rightfully so I think, only 2mo's in...again, I believe people can change, somewhat but your concern about it's staying power is VERY valid. Honestly AGG, I really don't see it happening....

Maybe she needs some more time to get comfy at your place and around your kids in order to jump in and participate?? Maybe she still feels like somewhat of a guest and doesn't want to overstep??

The "baby" talk will be difficult to say the least. I think it would really hurt her feelings tremendously to hear that not only do you not want more kids, you don't want any w/ HER b/c you question her parenting ability based on her lifestyle....OUCH w/ a captial O! I'm a big advocate for honesty, and if you feel she needs to know this, I would tread very carefully on this one....I don't envy you here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No, not time yet to break-up....but the big issues are surfacing and a nice long deep convo is definitely in order, but you already know that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

GL!
DW

This is by FAR this biggest red flag I've seen AGG.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

DW

I guess I'm not so tactful, or patient... I'd tell some things right away... to clarify before we are 'deep' into a relationship...
Probably...
Unless the rest of R is so great that I'd be sorry to break it, and would rather collect resentment... I guess... and hope not...
(time will tell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So, I'll 'think loud' here...
If anything I've learnt from past experiences is... need to distinguish/clarify, right away!, what is 'talk the talk', or if it is not just that... my X was so brilliant in just talking, and not changing anything... What I mean is I value (better to say - I try to) actions, not only words...

So.....

E.g.:


I'd have to tell her ('him' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... if that happens to me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)
- imagine how much more time together we'd have if you get up when I do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />



Hm... it is difficult really...
You could ruin some things before you are ready for... or mislead her too on the other hand...


She should know this...
If you want any change from her, you have to clearly tell her your wishes.
Otherwise, your resentment will grow, and she won't be encouraged for changes, therefore will stay with the same habits you cannot accept...
She has to know what you have to have from her, then it's up to her if she wants/can change these things or not.
Communicate your needs...



I know what you mean... it is not just help (with your kids, I'm talking about) but - her involvement... right?

Have you tried to wake her up earlier? To 'make her' involved in daily activities?
E.g. 'let's give a ride to my daughter then we can have one hour for us, then we drive my son, then...'
Did you tell her you miss her being with you from 7-8 a.m. till 2 p.m.?
And that you'd love she were up to share full day with you?
And that you don't feel comfortable...?
Or something like that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



That word I had in mind too, in that post I edited, remember?
Responsibility...
But, then, maybe nobody asked that from her?
Or nobody said that to her, that she has to be if she wants to be... what she says she does...



If she doesn't see THIS impact on you, I'm afraid she won't change anything... she'll think you are accepting her the way she is...
(I don't talk if she can change or not, just what would 'force' her to even try... Btw, I think that people can change if... if someone is more important than old habits... It's a matter of choice, as everything else...)



If you are 100% certain that you will not be able to accept these things - It is more fair to say... for both of you…



I’d ask her – when?
Then I’d ask her what changes on my side she’d love … Kind of, let’s make and have maximum of each other, what would make us happy together, and what we should change to reach that, and what is, well… what is 'dealbreaker' for each of us…
Sincere conversation…
(That’s ideal… not so often we do that in real life though…)

Oh, I really like this B2M...yes, I like it ALOT....

Excellent

DW

You know the more I read every one elses responses the more I have to say run for the hills!!! I am having a real hard time thinking she slept till 2 knowing everything you and the kids had planned. If she really wanted to blend in with you and your kids that would have been the perfect time to SHOW how much she wants to blend...remember actions speak louder than words.

HUGS!!

OMG---she didn't come "down" from sleeping until after Noon? Not good.

As a house guest (let's say as a family friend that' s staying the weekend for maybe a football game), I could NEVER imagine staying in bed while the rest of the house was awake. Now, staying in bed on the weekend as a houseguest (not at my BF's house) until 8 AM is acceptable in my book if the family is awake. After that? Rude. Big Time.

If I were visiting my BF's family on the weekend and WANTED to be included, I would NOT stay in bed, regardless of the time. Half the day has been "wasted" with sleep---what value does that put on you and your kids? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Good luck, AGG.

Upandrunning

Married 18 years
Divorced 11/05

well said upandrunning!!!

[color:"green"]My childless boyfriend is clueless as well, but I don't expect him to help out with the children. When he comes over he is a "guest" and used to get completely "waited on". Now if he is over I'll ask him to help - hon will you set the table or hon will you pour everyone beverages. I accept that he is not much of a cook. I also ask him to help out with the dishes. [/color]

Interesting to see your perspective, thanks. I also don't expect or need "help" with the children, so we agree on that much. But I am surprised that you treat your BF of two years as a guest still. Why is that? As for me, G and I are trying to see if we can be compatible as a family (or at least a couple), and so I don't want to maintain a guest/host relationship. Of course, this is not her home, so I don't expect her to be a full participant, but small gestures like clearing dishes (without me asking), and stuff like that would be nice to see.

I feel that if I treat her like a guest and "wait" on her, then it would simply give her the incorrect impression that this is how I like things to be. Is it possible that this is what happened with your BF, that over two years he became accustomed to being waited on by you?


[color:"green"] If I get out of bed to do something he has the grace to get out of bed as well. [/color]

Well, you know that we are nowhere near that right now. We are like ships in the night for the first half of the day, which is weird.

[color:"green"] In a lot of ways he seems stunted at some less mature age. It does have me question whether he will ever be much help to me around the house. I have to defend him however, because he is a kind thoughtful man who tries to please me when I point out a problem. [/color]

Sounds familiar, and I share your dilemma of being frustrated by some qualities while loving other qualities in your BF. I adore G's great qualities, the ones I became attracted to at the outset, and which are still there - the fact that she is so sweet and caring, lovely, smart, genuine, direct, very open, very loving and supportive, adores my kids (and me), is so very similar to me in terms of personality, etc.

It is so unusual for me to find an introverted thinker partner, and we mesh so well because of that. And I would hate to give up on this great personality compatibility of ours, because I certainly cannot take an extrovert and change them into an introvert, so we are lucky in this regard. But, I don't know how much change I can expect in her habits (probably very little), and I still do not know if I can live with them. And the whole baby thing is making it impossible for us to do what I think is the right thing to do - date without pressure and see if it works. With the clock ticking, it makes it way too pressured to just "date" and see how we feel in two, six, or twelve months.

[color:"green"]Imagine if G sleeps all the time while a baby is crying to be fed... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Yeah, well this is why it's not going to happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. AT least not with me.

AGG

Hi AGG, I don't like the cut your loses & run idea. You've given many good, solid reasons you're attracted & compatable.

As it happens you have rather large issues that need to be addressed & resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

While G should know your reasons for not wanting a child with her I don't think that should be a starting point for the conversation. You've said you don't want another child, almost period. That little 1% wiggle room for the exactly perfect person who may come along doesn't seem significant to me. You, now, don't want another child. Enough said. If G absolutely wants a child, that means you can't reach an agreement both of you are happy with. No need to toss on the fact you don't consider her good mother material in some respects. If that's the deal breaker for her it's enough.

If you get into the kind of discussion where G is telling you she knows she would change her habits for a child it seems to me she would be trying to talk herself & you into that becoming fact. Well, so far there's no proof she can do that. The first step to that would be becoming part of your family. Participating in a way that families function, getting up much earlier, not expecting others to pick up after you etc.

The conversation with G could be the end if she absolutley wants a child. If she doesn't there are still habits she must change in order for this to work for you & your family & so far she hasn't demonstarted the behavior only the words of desire for the behavior.

Ops. What I wanted to say is: G should know why you don't want a child with her IF it comes to that. If the fact you don't want another child is enough to break the deal, than leave it at that.

[color:"green"]Not so much like a guest any more. I do tend to cook more than he does, so he gets the "guest" treatment because I'm cooking. I used to cook at his house more, but then I started to mimic him and just sit and wait until he offered food. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't really know what you mean by guest compared to what I mean by guest. [/color]



[color:"green"]Yeah, well I learned the hard way to ask and not have expectations of him doing anything without being asked. It just doesn't occur to him to offer. He is amiable enough when asked. [/color]



[color:"green"]He is used to being waited on regardless. His mom is a big waiter onner. He said to me that he has learned more about being a host in the last 2 years than his whole life previously. He watched me and now he actually puts bowls of food/chips/etc. out and such rather than just leave the bags of chips out for guests... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

See - he's trainable. With enough incentive. I don't know if he ever felt incentive to please anyone else so much before. He tells me that he didn't feel that way for anyone else. Of course I've learned a lot and won't take any "crap" from him. Boundaries boundaries boundaries.

V.[/color]

Alluring:


Hmm, but maybe this is also the answer as to why she doesn't have a clue - she never needed to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And maybe by being with me and the kids, she will get a clue and will learn how to tend to a family - assuming of course that there is a will, which she says there is? I think this is exactly what Sunny is describing with her BF, and it makes sense to me.

DW:


OK, I agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Let me explain a bit more. I think (and she confirmed) that part of it is simply that she needs more sleep than most people. In fact, I have noticed that even though we now go to bed at the same time, I get up my usual 8 hours later, while she needs closer to 10. And, even that doesn't seem to be enough, and on weekends she ends up with more like 12 hours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. So, this seems to be more of a sleep issue rather than a "sloth" issue. I don't know what to make of it; I mean what if it's truly a medical thing (e.g. thyroid), and she needs more sleep rather than being lazy - is that a deal breaker? I dunno yet.

Now, the other part of this is weird too. Once she wakes up, she needs about 2 hours to get ready. I don't mean get ready to go to the opera, I mean just get ready. We had a chat about it, and why it takes her that long, and she doesn't know, it just does. I have talked to a couple of my women friends, both of whom clearly take care of themselves, and they both said they can get up and be ready in well under an hour. So, again, wassup with the 2 hours? Is that a deal breaker?

And, stack the 2 hours "getting ready" time on top of the 12 hours sleep time, and there you have it - I am up and about by 8, she at 2. Eek.


Good point, and here is what happened. She actually volunteered that she'll get up at 8, because she didn't want to miss my son's opening day. I was impressed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But, as Friday came, he was too sick to go, so I told her that she doesn't NEED to get up early, since he won't go until later to get his picture taken. So, she didn't. I guess in hindsight, I still would have preferred her to get up and at least keep him company while he was there alone, or join us at my daughter's contest. Or, at the very least, get up at 10, instead of 2. So, I am guilty to some extent (telling her that it was OK to not get up at 8), but she seemed to take it to the next level of not being ready till 2. Ugh.


Nope, but we obviously need to. Assuming we clear the "baby" hurdle.


Yikes, that would be a huge O! I wouldn't say that I question her parenting abilities, I actually do not. She is a wonderful and sweet woman, and my kids adore her, and I know she is great with kids (heck, her previous job was a teacher's assistant at a preschool). The real issue I question is her abilities to be the kind of parent/partner that I would be compatible/happy with, and that is a whole different story.

For instance, our views on child rearing are different - she expects to quit her job to raise a child (not a problem), but also to have nannies while she stays home, to help out (huh?). Anyway, that seems bizarre to me, and only cements my view of her as someone who needs help in coping with everything. I know that conceptually she can stay home and sleep in and "mother" a child, while we have nannies, maids, cooks, etc, to do all the other stuff - but that is not my vision of how a family should be.

B2M:


I agree, and I think that we will definitely have this chat to make sure that she knows my feelings (and concerns) on this. She simply may not see how much it bothers me, and I do want to give her the best possible chance to change <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. After we have the baby talk, of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

nams:


Thank you, and I agree with you. With the exception of the baby issue, I do not see things that would require me to cut losses and run right now.

Let me explain - I am a somewhat negative, glass-half-empty person <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (I know, big shock to you all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). So, I tend to see all faults and flaws, big and small, and take for granted all the good things. So, in the last few pages of this thread, you see all of my concerns about G. Well, let's face it, we are deep in the Uncertainty phase (at least I am), where this is precisely what happens - the rose-colored glasses come off, and we see all the faults in their true light.

But, all books say to not make the mistake of breaking up in the Uncertainty phase - it is the opportunity to see the person for who they are, and really ponder if it would work. Then, it is important to discuss and negotiate, and see if a happy medium can be reached - that is the job of the Negotiation phase, which we haven't started yet. So, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater (bad pun), but to spend more time with her and see how it works out. I think I owe it both of us.

Despite the recent negative comments of mine, I want to explain what I like in G. Like I said earlier, she is lovely, fun, sweet, upbeat, caring, comlimentary, affectionate, smart, genuine, honest, and open. We are very similar in our personalities, so we "get" each other in terms of going out or staying in, our views of the world and relationships, importance of family ties, etc. We are similar in terms of managing money, types of food, entertainment, etc. Most of all, I just adore being with her, and that is something that I have not experienced with other GFs in a very very long time.

Overall, I am crazy about her, just not a few of these habits. Now, I am not trying to diminish the importance of these habits, but consider them in the context of the bigger picture - the reality of what is out there in the dating world. In my past few relationships, here are some issues that I have come across - mental illness (twice), dishonesty (twice), player (twice), severe money management problems, lack of physical attraction, unresolved issues with ex or men in general, extreme neediness/codependence. Now, all of these were deal breakers because I could not see a way to work them out or to compromise. So, in this context, I see my issues with G as being much smaller, because in the end, she is a wonderful, sweet, caring, and genuine woman, whom I adore. So to me, it is worth fighting for, or at least giving it a fair shake. KWIM?

Sunny:

This really gives me great food for thought, thanks. I think this is exactly where G is - she never had to learn all these things, so she didn't. But, she keeps going on and on about how she wants to learn, and I really hope that in the context of being in my home and family, there is a chance that she will. Like you said, she might be trainable, and I'd want to give it a shot. I guess your experience with your BF is encouraging to me from that standpoint.

Anyway, we have a weekend getaway planned, so all this talk will wait till we come back. I am curious how the vacation will go (we're back on Tue). But, yes, after that, it'll be time to surface the baby issue, and then if we clear that, to discuss my concerns. And, as you all suggested, to ask her what concerns/issues she may have with me - I know I am FAR from perfect (yes, big shock #2).

Thanks so much for all your thoughts, you guys are the best!

AGG

I also love this plan, and I will try it if we clear the baby hurdle.

Part of the problem is that I simply do not yet know what my dealbreakers/limits are, and am trying to learn.

For instance, getting going at 2pm seems to be a dealbreaker, as I am building resentment. But, what if she managed to make it 12; 10; 9? See what I mean? I need time to see what she can do and can I be OK with it.

Similarly, I don't like (and couldn't live with) the clutter in her place. But, what if I somehow (don't know how) convinced myself that if she moved in, we could contain her "Stuff" to one or two rooms, you know?

So, while I can start the chat and say that some things are not workable for me in their present form, I do not yet know what WOULD be acceptable. I guess this is how we go through the Negotiation phase, try things and see how they work.

I hate the Uncertainty phase, but I also see why it's so important, and I am not ignoring what I see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

"For instance, getting going at 2pm seems to be a dealbreaker, as I am building resentment. But, what if she managed to make it 12; 10; 9? See what I mean? I need time to see what she can do and can I be OK with it."

Trouble is, she could jump through all the right hoops NOW but revert back to her "real" self later (later, as in, after the wedding).

I dated my H for 3 years and thought he enjoyed going to Bible studies and planned to continue going to Bible studies after we were married. Turns out he doesn't like them at all. That's just one example - I'm sure many others here could give you many other examples.

Em

Oh, you bet, I am totally aware of that possibility/probability <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I guess this is my current view of things - I can see both sides of this issue, and need to decide which of the two views (AGG view vs. Devil's advocate view) will prevail. Here we go:

AGG view: In a normal family, both partners share chores/tasks more or less equally, as much as they can. One partner shouldn't have to ask the other to "do" things, even if the other accepts willingly - after all, this is a partner, not a 10 yo. In a normal family, both partners get up at more or less the same time, to maximize time together and the ability to get normal chores done. Besides, it's not just the weekends - during the week, she sleeps till 9, leaves house at 11, gets to work at 12, comes home at 9. The kids and I, on the other hand, leave at 7 and are home by 5. Heck, my kids go to bed by 8:30 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. So, where is the quality time together?

Devil's advocate view: If the partners meet each other's top EN's (which G does with flying colors), who cares if one sleeps more than the other? The awesome time together more than makes up for that. We certainly wouldn't be the only happy couple with different sleep schedules - there are others with different circadian rhythms, or different work schedules, etc. Besides, she may grow to move closer to our schedule, as she says she wants to. And as far as "housework", why not accept the fact that G is more than willing to do things when asked, and enjoy that help rather than harp on the negative. Remember, we see so many things eye to eye, adore being with each other, etc etc. The personality similarity, the similar outlooks on many things, etc, are the key issues. Eliminate the lovebusters of clutter and sleep, or change how I perceive them, and we'll be set.

Any thoughts? Is the latter pure denial, or is there some logic to it?

AGG

LOL...isn't the devil's advocate usually the more negative view? Seems like that is your first "view".

I was using this definition: "One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position".

So, here I presented how I see things, and how others might see them. And I am trying to determine how much validity there is to the contrarian argument <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

'nuf said.

There is no way you are going to be able to end this R while you are crazy about her...so why not just enjoy it.

"love is a journey, not a destination"

If after spending 2,4,12 months with her you are not so crazy about her...then you will have your answer.

The baby issue may be a deal breaker for her, but that is her choice to make.

Good luck AGG.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

_______
"she expects to quit her job to raise a child (not a problem), but also to have nannies while she stays home, to help out"
---
"Now, I am not trying to diminish the importance of these habits, but consider them in the context of the bigger picture - the reality of what is out there in the dating world."
---
"Similarly, I don't like (and couldn't live with) the clutter in her place. But, what if I somehow (don't know how) convinced myself that if she moved in, we could contain her "Stuff" to one or two rooms, you know?"
---
"Eliminate the lovebusters of clutter and sleep, or change how I perceive them, and we'll be set."
_______


If someone else here wrote this, what would you comment be?