I've been posting on the divorce forum, but it was recommended i post here, as there are usually more viewers. And besides, I'm not divorced yet and I'll do anything to make this work!! Here's my story, sorry it's so long...

We had been happily married (so I thought) for 5 years. We never fought, and only recently bickered over problems with building a new home. I am 40 and my husband is 30. Recently, our relationship took a backseat to life (raising kids, building home, new job, etc.). And I will admit to limited intimacy recently. As I mentioned we have one child, and just spent the worst year building a brand new home, it was horrific, nothing went right. Well, 22 days after moving in, on Thanksgiving day, my husband says he's questioning our marriage. I had no idea. He had never mentioned any problems. I had left the house an hour earlier, kissed goodbye, and then when I came home, my world ended. A week later he announced "it's over".

I truly had no idea our marriage was in trouble. He now says that he has been "suffering in silence" for years. He has pretended to be who he thought I wanted throughout our relationship, never telling me what he really needed. How was I to know I wasn't fulfilling his needs. I can look back now and see things that I would have done differently but you can't go back. I truly beleive his "bank is empty" and it's my fault because I didn't know what to deposit.

He says there is no chance of reconciliation. He refuses any marriage counseling, but "might" be willing to do separation counseling (if there is such a thing) so that we can part amicably for our daughter. But not if it has anything to do with reconciling. Do you think counseling might work or make it worse?

He says there is no one else, that he is doing this for the possibility of someone better. At first I thought there was no one else, but I'm beginning to think there may be at least an interest in a co-worker. He adamantly denies it. He says that yes, they have been spending time together lately because she is going through the same thing (she suffered in silence and just left her husband). Actually, he says there is a group of 3 women he's been "hanging out with" all of whom either just left there husbands or were left... it's his own divorcee support group. The bad thing is, when you get divorcees together they don't encourage you to mend, they encourage you to leave.

Since we have a huge mortgage and can't afford for him to get his own place, so he's been staying here and there, and sometimes at our home. He says he can't handle the stress of being there so most often he leaves. And I think he stays with the "girls" some nights.

Is it possible for one person to save a marriage? If he won't work on the marriage, I can't get him to read anything or fill out any of the worksheets. How can I fill his emotional needs if he won't let me know what his needs are? How do you work on a marriage if the other person isn't there?

Yesterday was the first day since Thkgvg that we've actually talked. We sat down and decided on visitation and finances. We talked about what went wrong in the marriage. I was going to implement Plan A, and I know we are not supposed to talk relationship, but he was ready so I dove in, totally non-aggressive, calm, supportive. I plan to be a nice girl whenever he's around. The problem I'm having is that I think his big need is Recreational Companionship. I never knew it, i thought he wanted to hang with the buds, but now he says he wants someone to share his hobbies. He is very athletic, enjoys lots of activities, skiing, dancing, working out, etc. I am not athletic, but I'd be willing to try now that I know how important it is. I have to admit in hind sight, he asked me to join a gym and I didn't, he asked me other things too but since I didn't know how important it was to him, I passed, hang with the guys, enjoy yourself (if I only knew). Funny thing is that I had planned to get us dance lessons for christmas so we could two-step together. Too little too late. So my big problem now is how to work on recreational activities if he won't invite me. We can't do things together if he doesn't want to be near me?

Has anyone successfully saved a marriage in this dire of a situation? Please help me figure out what to do, I can't bear the thought of losing this man. Help me to save our family. I will pray for healing and hope that someone can guide me to the light.

No, you can't save it by yourself. All you can do is try to convince your H not to leave. Which is only likely to work if you don't seem to be trying to convince him of anything.

You and your H rarely, if ever, fought, and your H feels he's been suffering silently. I peg him as a classic conflict avoider. Boo-hooing to a bunch of women from work about how unhappy he is, that's another male conflict-avoider pattern.

He can't have a healthy relationship with you or anyone else while he has that problem.

Now, as far as his contact with female co-workers, complaining about his marriage and hanging out with them... that's disloyal, it violates a boundary, it can only do damage to your relationship.

It's very possible he's at least having some kind of emotional affair with one of these women. People don't usually grow so adamant in their wish to leave, and so unmotivated to save their marriages, unless they have emotions pulling them in another direction.

GC

I think there is definitely an affair going on. It is unusual for people to want out of their marriage suddenly and not want to work on it, unless they are having an affair.

I would do some checking on him. The reason is, if he is having an affair, all this stuff he is telling you is just rewriting the history of the marriage. You can try to meet his needs, but if he is in an affair, he won't let you.

He is definitely a conflict avoider. He admitted it. That's a learned behavior of his entire family. You know, there's an elephant in the room, but if you don't say anything it'll disappear. Well, things don't disappear, they grow, and when you keep it locked up for so long, it grows very dark and its' hard to see any good.

And yes, I figure that there is at the minimum an EA going on with one of the girls (he denies). However, she meets his Recreational Needs. She works out at his gym, they went on a "group" ski trip last weekend. Her stbxh races and she'd be at the races when my H went with guy friends. So I think she's definitely attractive to him.

So what can I do? Any suggestions on how to work on Rec Comp when you are estranged?

Does anyone have an opinion on counseling? My thought is he needs to learn to communicate and not build up till the boiling point. But, then again, do I want to teach him that so his next relationship works? If he is so adamant against MC (I don't want someone telling me what I should do), then should I drop the idea of separation counseling. The counselor said it would be guided toward helping us communicate so we can continue our relationship with our child. Seriously, do you think it would hurt my chances of reconciling if I get him to go? What to do what to do????

emdd,

Okay, it seems like this is the only thing I ever say to anyone... but have you or have you considered calling to talk to the Harleys? I ask because it seems like you could use some direction, and that's definitely a specialty of the Harleys.

I've talked to SH (Steve Harley) several times over the past couple of months. I can't tell you how much better it has made me feel. I feel like I now have a strong sense of direction, and I feel like I'm taking positive steps that may help save my marriage. Before calling, I had almost given up all hope, and saw calling as a desperate last resort.

Things do not look good in my situation, but I have learned that appearances can be deceiving. I still have hope, and talking to SH has helped me hold onto and strengthen the hope that I have.

Yes. I don't have any links ready for you, but if you look around on this site, you'll find people who've rescued their marriages from situations that seemed much more negative and final than yours. [Hard to believe, right?]

Best of luck. I'm sorry you're here.

I have not honestly thought of calling the Harveys. I was hoping for some sage guidance "free of charge". My situation is such that we are broke. We built a new home and 22 days later, we're selling with no equity and a massive mortgage. I will have lost everything I had prior to this marriage. So, the heat is turned down and the christmas presents are minimal. I know that money should not stop me from saving my marriage, so I won't look at it as a never-do type of thing. I'll consider it.

Currently, my health insurance pays for counseling and although H refuses any type of marriage counseling, he did agree to "separation" counseling (something to help us with our child). I have an apt for after the holidays. I don't know if that will hurt or help the situation. What do you think? If he is so against mending the marriage, and is a conflict avoider, do you think this will push him away.

Call Dr. Harley on the radio show on Thursday 2 - 3 CST. It's free. 1.800.289.4499. When I sent an email on 9/24/01 to the radio show, Dr. Harley responded on 10/1 saying "He's having an affair." Call the woman's husband. I did -- on 4/22/02, and Harley was right. Sometime others can see what you cannot. I'm with believer in thinking that your husband's sudden realization that he's been suffering a long time has a lot less to do with you and a lot more to do with his having gotten caught up with someone else.

Cherished

Before signing anything or proceeding a word further with any of this type of stuff, I'd highly recommend you seek legal counsel. Many lawyers have the initial consultation for free. I know you think that y'all can do this somehow in a friendly manner, but you have to be prepared for tomorrow when y'all don't get along. Everything in writing so there is no question. Unless you are an attourney, I wouldn't even discuss finances. Many states have guidelines for that sort of thing. I'd be very cautious because he may have already gotten some advice and that's why he's trying to get you to talk about this stuff.

How do you send an email to the Harvey's? Do they reply to them on air or via email? We're out in the middle of nowhere, so I don't think I can get the radio show, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks for looking out for me. I actually have seen a lawyer, not that it will do any good. We have nothing to split up except a massive mortgage. We invested everything we had into this house and we can barely pay the mortgage together. Actually, that's what we talked about, how to pay the mortgage until the house is sold. He can't even go out and get an apt because he doesn't have $$. I figured up his finances the other night, and after he pays 1/2 mortgage, 1/2 day care, his car payment, etc., he's got around $200 a month. Can't live on that, but he hasn't thought that far in the future. Not that money should be the reason to stay (but I sure do wish he'd think about it).

I honestly don't think he's seen a lawyer. I'm the doer in the family (he says I was always controlled him and he didn't need another mother). Funny thing is that I did those things because he never took initiative. He has left us and hasn't opened his own bank account, gotten a credit card, anything. I took him off all the credit cards so he had to get one. But why should I pay for his ski trips when I can't pay the heating bill. So, anyways, I thank you for the heads up. The lawyer doesn't see the prospects as too good, because as they say you can't get blood out of a turnip.

You accommodated his weakness. Took up the slack when he was fearful and cowardly. Now he resents you for it and accuses you of standing in the way of his happiness. Calls you a tyrant under whom he has suffered for years, and he gets support by spinning this tale in the presence of sympathetic women.

Understanding how he sees all this is important for you.

He'll use the support of these other women to get the courage to do the things he normally couldn't do without your help.

If his family is as conflict-averse as he is, they are unlikely to help you, but you can try. What about them?

GC

You probably wouldn't be able to get the radio show on your radio since you need to be in the Twin Cities in order to get it on the radio. However, if you call them, you'll hear the answer by having them talk with you on the phone. It's just like talking on the phone, only your conversation goes over the radio as well. I have called a number of times -- maybe 50?

Sometimes, I have emailed Joyce ahead of time with a specific question and background information. Her email is [email]joyce@kkms.com.[/email]

You can send an email with background information but then have a specific question like what do you suggest I do?

Cherished

In-laws are devastated... what did "they" do wrong raising their children (if I don't turn this around it will be the 2nd divorce child, and the 3rd son is "suffering silently" also so I hear). They called and offered total support, will be there for me, don't blame yourself, your a good person, how could you fix it if he didn't tell you, etc. But, here's the big but... since that phone call they are pretending it's not happening. H said his dad called him yesterday to see if there was anything house related he wanted for christmas. His mom talks to me about decorating. I finally set her straight and said this is real, your son has left me, possibly for another women (they believe him that there is no OW). Mother finally admitted that she is terrified he will disconnect himself from them and she is not going to do or say anything to him. They've been together several times since the announcement and they pretend nothing is going on. What's odd is this is a very christian family, very faithful, they are praying for healing in our family, but are sitting back and letting evil take over. So, long story short, other than thier love and support of me and my daughter, I cannot count on them to help this situation.

They don't like what he's doing, but their big fear is that their relationship with him will suffer, that he'll penalize them for not going along with whatever he wants to do. To avoid that, they will accommodate him.

You said he wanted to spend more time in recreational activities than the two of you have. What specifically?

GC

Harley's toll free number for the radio show is 1.888.332.5129.

I think I suffered less than my mother in law did from my husband's behavior. That may be part of the reason for the denial. It's just too hard to face.

Cherished

H is an energetic, athletic guy who loves everything. He works out at the gym, likes to hunt (never got anything in all the years I've known him), fish, mountain bike, ski, scuba dive, ski diving (hasn't done it yet), and this is a quote "pulling each other around on a sled behind the truck". Note a sense of immortality also and no common sense. We had a harley which he sold (totally his choice) before we built the house so that he could buy a 4-wheeler.

I will honestly admit that during our marriage I did not put forth a great effort to join him recreationally. I thought he preferred not to have me join him. I admit he did ask me to join the gym and I didn't enjoy it. I did like the motorcycle. Most of the time, he did these things with the buddies which is what I thought he preferred. Now he says he wants someone he can go sky diving with. And that's where the OW comes in. They went on a "group" ski last weekend. She works out at his gym. Her stbxh raced and she was at the races (which my husband never invited me to because he assumed I wouldn't like it). That was the problem. He assumed I wouldn't do things without asking. Some I probably would not (like sky diving), but if I knew how important it was I think I would have made a better effort. The one thing we both enjoyed was dancing, and after we had our child, and with both working 2 jobs and no family for babysitting, we stopped going out together.

So, I can explain away everything that happened, but how do I improve the here and now? He won't let me do anything with him. The other day, I suggested we take our daughter on a dog sled ride. He refused to do it together. He said he would do it alone. He beleives doing anything together sends the wrong message, we are done, over.

Any suggestions on how to get him to let me have "fun" too?

this is exactly what happened with me and my H....he always seemed happy going to do these things with his friends or family...when he decided he wanted a famle companion to do them with him....he didn't ask me he found the OW

this ISN'T our fault!!

you can't change the rules midway through the game without telling and then accuse the other person of not playing fair!!

oh yeah..and when I tried to do things with my H after i found out he said it was "too little too late" and that "i wasn't the person he wanted to do these things with anymore"

EMDD...

I think he's trying to find a loophole. If he and the OW both wait until they're divorced, or at least give it the college try, then they can claim to have not had an affair. They can pretend they found each other after their marriages were over.

I wonder what promises they've made.

I find your H's lack of compassion for you to be dreadful, but I've seen something very similar before. Alarmingly similar. Certainly I can I.D. with your wish to save your marriage. I've been there.

Wish I could tell you what to do. But the truth is, your power is limited. As someone here said once, you can't change your spouse. All you can change is you, and in a way that makes it impossible for someone who loves you to forget they love you.

It gets to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he doesn't return, then he's not someone you want in your life. Knowing that is easy. Getting to the point where you feel it is so hard, and it takes a long time.

Be tough, EMDD. Be tougher than the rest.

GC

At least you have contact with your WH.
You may want to look at other EN. He has others that you could address and in this way increase your Love Bank with him. SF, Admiration etc.

As for EN RC. You could try the things he likes so you can at least talk about the same things and show you like them.

You could read Shatterd05’s thread, it’s inspiring and since you are a woman, you could address the same general EN. click her for Shatterd05

We had a house built last year too. Major stress for any couple. It is also time to appreciate it as it is and see it as your mutual accomplishment EN Admiration.
I don’t think this is hopeless. Get into plan A. Snoop around, find the OW. Talk to her STBXH

Best of luck,

DLK21

end_my_dark_days,

I can relate to much of your story - EXCEPT my FWH was never even honest enough to come forward & say he was unhappy at all. I had no clue. He is a major conflict avoider & passive-aggressive. He planned to leave me BEFORE the A & then decided to use the PA as a vehicle to leave (he said if he did that, he would definitely have to leave). I think, though, that once the "fog" cleared a little (as he realized that the OW was a big mess & someone he really didn't want), he realized he didn't want to leave me. BTW-his PA was after 4-1/2 years of marriage so I was at a similar turning point as you.

Let me add that due to his passive-aggressive behavior, I had alot of LB's (angry, disrespectful & selfish demands). By the time the PA began, I had been working to stop LB's, but he could no longer see it.

We also were building a house at the time. We both we moving up in our financial indebtedness and I was pushing for the new house. We were also finishing remodeling our existing house to get it ready to sell. I think the stress may have been too much for him. Of course, being a conflict avoider, he didn't tell me that either. I've come to realize now that building this house was probably a mistake. We are a slave to the payment & have a hard time affording anything else. BUT, DON'T SELL YOUR HOUSE YET (see below about not helping your WH divorce you).

I should first say that my FWH was saved a year ago (gave his life to Jesus) & told me truth because his conscience was really bothering him after the many lessons (see the attached verses in my signature - those struck home to him). After my FWH finally came to me & told me the truth about his A's this year - 2-1/2 years after PA ended & 4-1/2 years after EA ended, he also told him about his feelings at the time. He felt I was too controlling. He said he thought our marriage would be perfect if I wasn't so controlling. The funny part of this is that he was SO passive-aggressive, I was forced to take care of everything (I didn't really want to) & therefore, I was forced to make all financial decisions, etc. This lead to alot of LB's too because I was so frustrated with being the only grown up in the house. He would never do what he said he would do & let chores go undone. I recommend you read more about passive-aggressive behavior as well (sounds like it's learned behavior from his family): http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/DEFENDING.html (read suggestions, solutions & lori's story as well) My FWH certainly learned this behavior from his mother - it's a great way NOW for him to understand what that behavior does to other people because he gets so frustrated with her.

He admits NOW that it wasn't me that was too controlling, but he was completely SELFISH & SELF-ABSORBED. He threatened our marriage once over a '78 Trans Am he wanted (and got it because of that-bad choice on my part). But, that was the ONLY time he showed his true colors - most of the time, he kept those feelings under wraps. He said he was absorbed by "materialistic stuff" he wanted & I would say "it's not a wise financial decision" or "we can't afford it" and he would think I was controlling him. However, just before his PA, he bought a use pickup, repainted it, got wheels for it & was looking at putting new seats in it. YET, this was the very time in which he started his PA because I was too controlling?. It seemed the more I gave in, the MORE he wanted. It was an animal that had a life of its own. This is why I'm saying focusing on recreational activities isn't likely to help you at this point. I was being more giving & stopping LB's & he couldn't see it AT ALL.

My FWH is also a thrill-seeker & I am not. He loves all types of recreational activities & would love to sky dive. I don't. I hate heights, I hate rides, etc. I will go skiing or bike riding, but nothing too scary for me. It's a compromise. We will go to amusement parks & plan it with others (family) so he can ride the rides with family members who also will enjoy it. I spend most of my time sitting or babysitting. It's not great fun, but I do it for him. This is how I show my support. He also wants to learn dancing so I finally (after D-day) said yes.

I do believe if you follow the advice on this board & he comes home to work on the marriage, you can start doing more recreational activities together, but I don't think changing this for him right now will do anything since he is in the "fog".

I recommend you work on YOU! Maybe you should find a hobby or some activity you would like to do. Focusing on yourself & improving yourself will make you more attractive to him & make you feel better. Also, maybe you start taking up recreational activities he likes (gym, biking, running, etc.), but act as if you are doing it only for you. "You have more free time now that you are alone & want to improve yourself." That's what you tell him. If you act like this is for you, he will take notice & you'll leave him wondering about other men becoming interested in you.

Here’s a quote from one of the discussions on marriage builders that I think might be helpful: “What I have done is to really look at the way I respond and how it enabled certain behaviors. If I change my response the formula changes.”

FIRST you need to know whether he's having an A (sounds like he is), confirm it, then EXPOSE it to everyone (as directed on this site) to OW's husband, family, your family & friends, your WH family & friends. You must first break up the A. He will be very angry, but you will calmly say that you are going to do everything you can to save your marriage. You love him & want to work on you marriage.

You may need to learn reverse babble too (ask others, I'm not sure how to do it)

SECONDLY, you should not be helping your WH end your marriage. I've read numerous threads telling the BS to not sell anything, don't go to mediators, and do nothing to HELP him get a divorce. You should tell him you are ONLY interesting in working on the marriage, that you love him & want your marriage to work. Of course, you have to tell WH that you cannot work on the marriage until he writes a NC letter to OW (that you read & approve) & is ready to work on marriage. This could mean he has to change jobs or your family must move away if he is addicted to OW.

Keep reading & posting so the great people of wisdom here can help you. So far, I haven't seen people helping you with Plan A or Plan B or giving much direction. You probably need to research that more Plan A (carrot & stick)& Plan B. I wish I could be of more help, but I never had to do either of those plans.

I have been encouraged greatly by the number of BS's have reclaimed their marriages through the MB strategies. IT'S not over yet. I think you have a GREAT chance to save your marriage if you really begin to use the principles. Calling the Harley's as many have suggested would probably be the best call you ever make for your marriage to get you started.

I hope this helps!