I had a talk with my lady friend a few weeks ago.

I had discovered that she went (with a mutual friend) to a play which she knew I likewise wished to attend, and which I subsequently attended alone.

Now, I am accustomed to going to various performances and movies without companion, but such is not my general preference. I had accepted the seeming inevitability that I must live the rest of my life alone, but now it occurred to me that this state should not inherently require me to be lonely. For while I continue to wrestle with the feeling that my presence is an imposition on my friends, I do not actually believe this to be true. (If nothing else, my oddity must serve as a boundless source of amusement.) So recognizing that, if my experience is to conform more closely to my preference, I must exert myself to become more proactive about social matters, I resolved to begin practicing against my irrational scruples and reach out to my friends more aggressively.

My lady friend had somewhat kept her distance from me over the last few months, after a very frank talk which left neither of us in any doubt concerning the other's incongruent feelings. We were still friends, but she was careful to do nothing which might be misconstrued on my part. While I understood and respected her reasons for doing this, it still saddened me; and it struck me that excluding me from the play outing really was excessive caution. If she had gone alone, I would have said nothing, since she could not properly have gone attended only by me without there being some suggestion of a "date." But since she went with a mutual friend, there was no reason I could discern why it would not be appropriate for me to be included in the group as well.

So I spoke with her, explaining that I no longer had any hope of our relationship ever being more than friendship, and that I very much wanted to be friends. I told her that I did not seek any special attention, but that if and when it was natural and convenient to include me in some innocuous social activity, I hoped she would think of me.

(If this seems a strategem too suspiciously directed, I offer in my defense that I have omitted mention of other overtures to other people, considering these irrelevant to the present discussion.)

Greatly to my surprise, my lady friend took my little speech much to heart, and it was but a few days later that she invited me to come with her to a party set by a friend of hers (a friend with whom I myself was also somewhat acquainted). There we learned of a performance the following week which we both wished to attend, and the dictates of convenience suggested that it was only natural we should go together. Yet another week later, she and a couple of mutual friends invited themselves over to my place for Sunday brunch after church, as their own abodes were not considered to be in a suitable state for receiving guests while mine was both serviceable and conveniently located. In all of this, I was pleased to discover that, despite many confirmations of my lady friend's suitability and desirability as a prospective mate, I never felt a return of any hope that such a change in circumstance could in fact occur.

This past weekend she made another suggestion that I accompany her to a social affair involving yet another mutual friend. While this suggestion was spontaneously offered as convenient to both of us, it was nonetheless gratifying. Alas, I was forced to decline, as I had other intentions which, while not so firmly fixed that they could not easily be altered (and altered without any reflection on my honor), I felt more important to fulfill. I mention this in the interest of proving that my activities are not so narrowly or intently focused as to constitute an obsessive interest in my lady friend, as these plans involved separate engagements with a couple of other single female friends who had personally issued invitations to me, but to neither of whom I had as yet communicated a response.

So far, all from my perspective seemed good. My difficulty, such as it is, stems from last night.

A movie outing had been arranged within our social circle, with my house set as the meeting-place, being positioned proximate to the theater. However, for whatever reasons, only one person actually showed up; and so we proceeded with the previously agreed-upon plans as a twosome, attending the movie and then returning to my place for a brief bite.

Given all this build-up, it should be a matter of no great wit to discover who this person was, and the nature of my difficulty is that this occasion felt to me very much like a date. Indeed, it felt very much like a very nice date, which is not something I have experienced since the departure of my (now ex-)wife. It is very lucky that I am already madly in love with this woman, or I would have been in great danger of falling quite in love with her on the instant. Now, I know my lady friend well enough to be quite certain that she viewed the experience in no such wise, and so my dead hope is in no danger of stirring from its grave.

But dear God, how sweet it would be if things were otherwise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Do not mistake me; I have no regrets and would not have traded that pleasure for the world. I cannot see that it did any harm except it be in the bringing of a temporary tenderness to my heart. And who can object to such an honorable wound?

I submit this lament in consideration of DW's offering on AGG's thread that "It's so COOL to see that guys get just as giddy as us girls."

Too true, even if that giddiness is in consequence of a tailspin.

My apologies for the awkward nature of my phrasings. I have been reading altogether too much Jane Austen in honor of the release of "Pride and Prejudice" and it has exacerbated my tendency toward overly affected prose.

GDP, I love your "overly affected prose". It reminds me of my dad, who's 98, and a very charming man BTW (are you really only "around 40 years old"?). It sounds like you have quite an active and interesting social life.

Your lady friend obviously enjoys your company and, from what you post, she doesn't have any other romantic interest. Once reassured of your honorable intentions, she seems willing to spend lots of time with you on what looks and feels like dates.

The stakes are high, and you seem to consider them worth the risk of a broken heart. If you're willing to maintain the status quo, she might just wake up one day and find herself in love with you, too. Good luck!

I enjoy your posts too. Your well written pose reminds me of Niles on Frasier, but I digress...

I would just make sure to put enough space between you and your lady friend. Take it extremely slow and try not to put to much pressure on yourself and you'll do fine. View it as a friendship and nothing more. That way you'll be and act your natural self. It's easy to get hurt in these situations by putting too much analytics into the actions. Having girls as "just friends" has never been easy for me but I'm working on it. For some guys it's never a problem.

“””I resolved to begin practicing against my irrational scruples and reach out to my friends more aggressively.”””

Awesome, Gnome, given what I know and perceive of your circumstances I think that is a wonderful idea. We do need to work on that attitude a little though. I don’t see you at all as any type of burden on anyone, if I remember correctly, you seemed quite willing to help others. Do you think that your perception of being a burden is derived from a perceived lack of appreciation?

”””Greatly to my surprise, my lady friend took my little speech much to heart, and it was but a few days later that she invited me to come with her to a party set by a friend of hers”””

Don’t overlook that Gnome…. Look at the value she has placed in you and your friendship with this action, it truly does speak volumes. While one could look at your initial talk as you placing yourself in a place of extreme vulnerability, which it truly did, however one cannot discount the vulnerable position that this sweet young lady was put in. I can totally relate to her then withdrawing temporary from this scene, but to me, her then reaching past this is another extreme act, one of love. Sure, it’s not the hot passionate love you desired but oh what a heart she must have….

“””And who can object to such an honorable wound?”””

Awww yes…. In many I would rant and rave about this honorable wound, but not in you Gnome. You possess a self awareness many never find. Thus, there isn’t a need for my warnings. It is, however, one of my greatest hopes that in His time, one shall be sent for thee, and your postings shall change from the wishes of tomorrow to the dreams coming true today.

”””I have been reading altogether too much Jane Austen in honor of the release of "Pride and Prejudice" and it has exacerbated my tendency toward overly affected prose.”””

PS…. Loved the movie, wonderful acting, great story, and what amazing backgrounds they created…..

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have to say Gnome, I'm impressed at your reading of Jane Austen. Can't say I've encountered many men who appreciate her writings. She's my all time favorite author.

As for your friend, she sounds like a lovely woman and lovely friend and I'm sorry she doesn't return your affections. I'm not one to give out false hopes, but you just never know....

DW

I am obviously not one to have any good relationship advice given my current situation, but wanted to respond and just say first, I always enjoy your writing, and second, that I am very happy for you that you had what sounded like a very nice evening with your lady friend.

I keep up with your posts and have thought from time to time that it seems almost crazy (again, take this with a grain of salt given who is writing it) that you hang on and hang on to something where it seems like she has made it very clear she just wants a friendship and you are very much wanting more than that. It has seemed to me that you, a very good guy that a Christian woman would be fortunate to find from what I read, have been wasting precious time on something that probably will never materialize.

But then you have this "date" of sorts with her which sounds like it was quite enjoyable for both of you. So who is to say? You seem to be so very patient, a quality I wish I shared. Maybe this is your time?



Okay, you have scolded me for being negative. So now what is THIS? I get the feeling you don't feel a deep calling to live your life alone either, though you are obviously far more content with it than I am at this point.

If this is the start of a new relationship for you with your lady friend, and I hope it is, FANTASTIC! If it's not, and it stays the same way for months and months more, are you going to eventually be able to let go and look for that true partner God may have for you, or are you so focused on her that no one else will ever measure up? (Easy for me to offer advice...far harder for me to follow it. I can't even seem to let go of the guy who is NOT showing me this kind of caring and affection. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />)

LL

I was required to take a course on writing CLEARLY without being "overly affected" when I studied for my Accounting designation. Prior to that, I wrote HORRIBLY, using too many of the wrong words.

Now that I'm more comfortable writing clearly, without "fillers", my brain radiates to that way of writing and I find it increasingly difficult to read pieces with too much "flowery" english.

I'd probably post more if it wasn't that I don't have enough patience to read many of the posts but I DID read yours!

My question is:

Why do you choose to love someone who told you that she's not interested?

Heh. I'm used to people being surprised by my age, LetSTry, but generally people mistake me for a man in his twenties or early thirties, not a man in his nineties. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I am indeed no more than a year or two away from 40.

Thank you for your good wishes, LetSTry.

Thanks, timn420, that encourages me a bit, since having no hope of anything developing out of this, I feel no pressure at all, and I'm getting very close to being able to be my "natural self" around her - I'm just a trifle too careful on her behalf. As far as taking it extremely slow...well, we've known each other for almost three years now, and if I am not her closest male friend, I am very nearly so. Being "just friends" with girls is certainly not a problem for me; rather, I seem to have no idea how to have any other kind of relationship with them. And that is part of the difficulty, I think: we know each other too well for the fantasy element of chemistry to kick in. She knows that I'm "safe," she knows that I love her and respect her, she knows how I feel about her, she knows that I'm a faithful friend - where is the drama in that? Where's the excitement?

Bill, I know my attitude needs work. My perception of being a burden is not based on feeling unappreciated; rather, it is a legacy of my marriage, where even an attempt to be helpful sometimes seemed taken as an unwelcome imposition. Some parts of my healing have been slower than others, and this is one of those areas which has proven to be most resistant. Fortunately, I know that my perception is not reality, so I can choose to act according to my understanding rather than my inclinations. It just takes an effort.

Her heart is...no, don't get me started. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> She is an amazing woman who has handled this whole situation better than I could have imagined possible. And I am very much aware both of the vulnerable position she was in, and also of the one which she is in now - for there are many of her friends who know of my feelings toward her who might not think it wise for her to be "encouraging" me in this manner. She must make her own decisions, and she knows me well enough to trust me; but if she is ignoring the counsel of well-meaning friends, she could be putting a strain on those relationships.

Thanks for your good wishes, Bill.

Unfortunately, DW, you're right, I can't know for sure. It would be nice if I could have full certainty that it will never be, to silence the voices of everything inside me crying out in agreement that it should be - but it really makes little difference at this point. I do not find myself daydreaming about what might be, or wishing for it; instead, I grieve for what should have been that was not.

And at the same time, I remember with great fondness the joy my lady friend has brought me, and the changes which have been wrought in my life through her. The grief becomes a dissonance adding character to a symphony of beauty. Some day the dissonance will be resolved.

Heh. A psychologist friend of mine told me recently that as far as he could see, the only thing separating me from insanity was my self-consistency. He could not find any flaw in my perceptions or in my reasoning, but the fact remained that I do not live in the same world everyone else lives in. I had to agree. I try to base my attitudes and behaviors on my theology and reason and ideals, and if living according to those principles means going against the conventional rules and ideas of society, so be it.

I "hang on" because it seems clear to me that the frustration I experience over what I do not and can not have should be granted far less significance than the value of a friendship I do have and treasure. And I cannot see that I am wasting any time or opportunity, because when I did make an effort to play the "dating game" my efforts were completely ineffectual. That seemed to me to be a waste of time, because my efforts were distracting me from other parts of my life which I believed I should be focusing on.

My choices are perfectly logical according to my values. My values are based on my ideals, which society might consider admirable but declines to take seriously. Societal conventions are seldom based on anything sensible, if they are based on anything at all, and so it should be no surprise that my choices do not always align with convention.

As Bill pointed out (thanks, Bill), I possess a high degree of self awareness. I know what I'm doing, and I am by no means blind to the potential costs. Sure, I could get hurt. But it's only pain, which is no stranger to me. Given a choice between a wound to the heart and a wound to the soul, I'll take the broken heart any day.

I wondered whether anyone would call me on my hypocrisy, lordslady. I recognize that this is inconsistent with what I preached to you, because you're right, I feel no calling to singleness. Moreover, I have been developed into a man whom I believe would be a great husband, and by my own logic I must conclude that God will work something out to see me married some day. However, I have discovered that it is much easier for me to have faith where others are concerned than where I am concerned. My heart has always followed my head, and it has been disconcerting for me to find myself in a place where my heart has finally balked. It is tired, and it has strength only for love, not for hope. So for the time being, I am forced to live in a state of dissonance. So much for my vaunted self-consistency, eh?

Not that I am willing to accept such a state indefinitely. With the help of friends and counselors, I am working on getting my hope back, despite the obstacle that I am ambivalent about success (since hope hurts and I have been enjoying the relative respite from pain). And in the meantime, I can choose to act as if I have hope and faith. Fortunately, I believe that what I need to be doing in my life is the same regardless of whether God finds me a wife or not. One thing I'm convinced of is that any efforts in that direction on my part would be pointless, so I can only wait on God, and try to be open and sensitive to anything He might do.

I know my lady friend too well to mistake the situation for "the start of a new relationship." If anything ever changes there, it will have to be God's doing. But I think I've already "let go" in the sense that I don't believe my love for my lady friend will prevent me from seeing and loving anyone else God brings into my life. I am quite capable of feeling other attractions, and the obstacle here is my head, not my heart. My conviction that my lady friend and I are right for each other is based on a sober evaluation of compatibility and complementarity in all aspects of life (excepting of course for her missing the "spark"). I have emotional attachments to plenty of other single female friends, and I am persuaded that the only thing preventing these feelings from developing further is my rational awareness that such a relationship would not be appropriate. With my lady friend I am deprived of such a governor. It stands to reason, however, that a similar degree of compatibility and complementarity in another woman would effect a similar degree of attraction.

As for anyone else being able to measure up, I can only say that I am not blind to my lady friend's imperfections. Again, sober evaluation persuades me that these are not of the sort that I would find too difficult to live with. My greater concern is not that I cannot find someone worthy of the same level of respect - for I do not place my lady friend on a pedestal - but that I would have thought it impossible to encounter such a comprehensive array of compatibility and complementarity in anyone as I seem to have discovered in my lady friend. I am not perfect, and she is not perfect, but the match appears to me perfect - and for the sake of my own comfort I have tried very hard to prove otherwise. Logically, if there can be one such, there can be two - and let us not forget my ex-wife, who set a standard I once considered impossible for anyone else to meet. Introduce her into the picture, and we effectively have two already, which makes the plausibility of three even more sensible.

Nonetheless, logic aside, the reality of one impossibility does not make another any more admissible to my imagination.

So I cannot be altogether certain, but I do not know of anything more I could do to "let go" of my attachment to my lady friend. I make no apologies for my love for her, for there is no wrong - and no fear! - in love. My feelings...both pleasant and painful, they are merely feelings, and I know what weight to give them. I go about my life with a continual background thread running "What about her?" evaluations, even on some of the most improbable women. I trust it is enough.

Thanks for putting up with my prose long enough to recognize the value of putting forth this question, aeri. It is an important question, with the important inherent recognition that love is a choice.

I made the choice to love her when I realized that she was exactly what I would have been looking for in a woman if I had been looking at the time. This was some months after my divorce (and more than two years since my ex-wife and I had last spoken), and I was still grieving. I had absolutely no thought of dating or remarrying, and I especially had no thought of any kind of relationship with a woman appreciably younger than myself. So when a remarkable sequence of coincidences forced my attention onto her, I was completely unprepared for the effect. I did not want to "fall in love" with her, I wanted very much to convince myself that she was not for me, and most of all I did not want to "covet" someone who would some day be someone else's wife. I realized that there was only one thing I could do to stop myself from heading down a destructive emotional path: if I was going to fall in love with her, I had to fall in love with her all the way. I had to love her so truly that her well-being was more important to me than my own desires.

And so, I chose to love her. I spent about a year and a half trying to find reasons why we were not right for each other, trying to find something - anything! - I found unattractive about her. I finally gave up on that, but all the while I loved her. We helped each other grow and heal, and I delighted in every opportunity to be of service to her. She opened my life to things I could not have imagined, and changed my life in so many positive ways, that if I had not loved her already, I would certainly have come to love her for all she gave me. I would simply not be anything like the man I am today if it had not been for her and her friendship - indeed, if it had not been for her love.

She feels no "spark" with me, but what does that matter compared to all that I have gained? I can have no regrets.

Why do I choose to love her? Because love is never a mistake.

Give me that any day over someone who may be wild and crazy but self-centered and untrustworthy--HONESTLY! If it ever became more than a friendship, you get creative and you can make the excitement.



Uh, yeah, know that feeling... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


No, love is a great feeling (when it doesn't hurt, like mine seems to be doing very much right now...but maybe it's the hope or the loss of hopes that hurts more than the love). My concern for you is that you'll miss opportunities with other women who might truly be right for you because you're so focused on the one you can't have.

LL

Is it really love if it isn't reciprocated?

Gnome, you should really read the book "No More Christian Nice Guy". If you are not a Christian, simply filter out the biblical and religious stuff. Over and over I get the impresson that you need to put yourself first.

I don't care what women say they want. They don't want nice guys who constantly go out of their way to please them. Who constantly subvert their needs to meet the woman's needs. They want men who can meet their own needs. And in doing so, help the woman meet her needs. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a sacrificial one.

They want men who have a sense of self, a sense of who they are, who are whole and complete in themselves. And they will put up many small inconveniences and bothers in order to have such a man. She has to realize that if she pushes to hard against you, she will hit your edge, and will cut herself.

You're right.

My brother has a theory about the allure of the "bad boy". He puts it to the test whenever he can and it hasn't failed YET.

Unbelievable, but true.

I think it can me.

You know that, and I know that, but...how many others know that?

There's no "spark." I have come to believe that Harley is right: the spark could be - would be - produced under the right conditions. If the match is right (if you'll pardon the pun), it becomes a matter of choice as to whether the right conditions will be permitted.

In this case it is the choice of my lady friend. If she believed what I have come to believe, she might choose differently than she has. Or she might not.

I believe love to be perhaps the greatest source of pain there is, because it opens up so much potential for loss. But it is also the greatest source of joy. It is worth it.

Hope hurts also, but sometimes it is what keeps one going.

I thank you for your concern, LL. I guess only time will tell.

My first reaction was to say "Of course it is." But then I realized what you're really suggesting.

If you have "feelings" for someone who does not reciprocate them, are you really doing anything more than indulging in a romantic fantasy?

Perhaps not. But that's not the kind of "love" I meant.

I think it is often a mistake to let oneself "fall in love" with someone. (Of course, some degree of feeling is out of one's control - but indulging those feelings is largely a choice.)

When I say that "love is never a mistake" I refer to the real thing - the kind of love described in I Corinthians 13, the famous "love chapter" in the Bible. To truly love someone may well bring pain, but it also brings growth. Jesus said to "love your enemies," and there's certainly no reciprocation there!

Am I really "in love" with my lady friend? I wouldn't care to argue the point. Certainly I have many of the symptoms of infatuation, albeit at a more moderate level than the can't-eat-can't-sleep variety. But I know that's not love.

I sometimes say that I'm "in love" with her, because it's pretty well understood what that means: it's just admitting to having a certain kind of feelings.

But that's not important. What's important is that I love her, and it is my love for her which keeps my feelings in proper perspective when I make my choices regarding her.