Okay, I thought people were saying I need to get myself straightened out (I admit I have issues with insecurity AND with being who God wants me to be) and I thought most people were saying to slow things down.

I think that's what most people are saying, also.

Granted, what I'm going to propose isn't slowing a lot, but it is a date that would make me more comfortable.

ok.

Now are you saying that the ONLY answer is to just end it?

Who said this? I don't remember anyone saying this. I just scanned back through the last 2 pages, and didn't see it. Perhaps, you think some people say it, because it's the opposite extreme of "Marry him, LL", and you tend to think in extremes... fluctuating back and forth from one extreme to another... panicking when something doesn't go one way, and assuming the pendulum will swing the other way.

Do you see why I get confused or frustrated? I'm trying to take my stubborn little mind and inject a little of the reason from here into the emotions I'm working with, but each time I think I'm sort of getting it, something shifts on here. And then I'm balancing this from what I hear from my pastor, and a few people here at work.

Yep. Confusing. And the "pendulum-panicking" I just mentioned. The many hours you spend analyzing, fretting, and worrying... talking to folks, listening to advice from 10 different directions... and I believe all the hours you spend arguing -> saying "but - but- but" and "I want this and I want that".... wishing and wanting and worrying..... all of this is what is confusing and tiring for you.

But no, I don't believe anyone suggested you dump him, ever. We just said take your time. NOW, we see you doing things like pressing him for answers (the last day or so), needing to know right now why and when and how.... and your extreme disappointments and highs and lows (the reason we say DRAMA!)... and desperately thinking of alternate dates and/or accomodations to his frustrations....

So... what do we mean by take it slow? Go through some counseling appointments. Relax and go back to "dating" him. Continue your own self-improvement. If the wedding is supposed to take place, you'll find out sometime in the next couple of weeks, during these therapy, counseling, and dating sessions.

If you're terrified of getting married, then SAY SO. Tell him NO. If you're terrified of losing him for that, he wouldn't be a good marriage partner anyway. Do you agree?

By the way...


Yes! You've got it sista! Yay! Now work on it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LL, I never said end it, but the fact that you all are talking marriage right now, only AFTER the sex issue, is just, and I mean no offense, ridiculous.

All EVERYONE has said is sit back, look at the big picture, work on yourself, b/c you desperately need to if you are to ever be in a successful relationship.....but your fear of EVERYTHING is making you push forward and scramble around to figure out how to make this work, how not to scare him off, how not to lose him, b/c you so desperately fear being alone. We all want to be loved and have a partner, but I've just never seen such desperation in my life. LL, it's it's meant to be it's meant to be! I literally sit here just amazed at what you put yourself thru. I feel for you LL. It makes me sad b/c you do seem like a really nice lady who wants to do the right thing, who wants love and happiness, but you will never have it, have REAL love, until you love yourself. THAT is what we've ALL been saying.....

Again, good luck
DW

PS
Did you even think about going out and buying the book I suggested? In The Meantime by Iyanla Vanzant. Buy it STAT. You won't regret it

Your pastor doesn't necessarily think March is a bad idea? He just wants to be sure you are both spiritually healthy?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If he thinks for one second that you are spiritually healthy at this point, he is banging the wrong drum. My dog may have a better grasp of what constitutes spiritually healthy if this pastor thinks you might be. What with these 10 million issues!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Pass me the dramamine, too. Folks, I am out of here. 17 pages of this and everyone is saying the same thing and still, LL, you rationalize things.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Advice is what you ask for when you know the answer but don't like it.

LL is addicted to drama, HIGH drama, addicted to the concept of being married, being in love, not sure which. . .

why i am here is just a bit sick on my part

I'm tired, just got home, am going to bed. Will respond more tomorrow.

GDP,


There are issues related to this that are troubling me. That's part of the reason I'm not comfortable with an end-of March date. There are some things that, as I think on them, cause me discomfort but they're not things I feel comfortable posting here as this is not specifically a Christian message board and some here don't share my level of belief or understand my desire to honor God.


And as hard as it is for me to get out there and try to work on a network, I forced myself to do that again tonight. A number of ladies from my church have a Friday-night game time every few weeks, and so tonight I decided to just go. I do feel like a 5th wheel to a degree because I'm not married and all but one other person is, so it's like a big night out from the hubby and kids for them. And the anxiety I have right now wasn't helped by one of the ladies asking how my "beau" was and mentioning how well he sings in church (yes, he does have a very nice voice).

But I went, I played games until after 11pm, and I did my best to act cheerful and tried to enjoy myself (fake it 'til you feel it, as one of my coworkers was always fond of saying). It wasn't the greatest time, but it was okay.

LL

I'm glad you went to game night. A day at a time, and that was a good choice, IMO.

I don't understand why you keep putting everyone down here. (your comments about the people on this board... GEE... SORRY we're not all up to par for you!!!) You are NEVER satisfied. You want perfection everywhere you go. If you could be SATISFIED with what God has given you in life, you could work through some issues, and be happy. But you are always looking for what is WRONG in everything. You can't even see the good in your game-night last night.

I think I've reached my limit with you too. It takes a willing listener... someone willing to accept help... and I don't think you really want help. You just want to whine about how life doesn't go YOUR way. By the way, I've sent you some e-mails... maybe you haven't checked your e-mail lately?

I can't speak for others, but the reason I'm frustrated is the unhealthy balance here. We seem to care more about your health than you do. It's easy for us to slip into "LL's not doing it MY way... can't she see that WE know best???" But really, what I'm frustrated with, is that you really need to start taking ownership for your problems and improving them. Haha... I can see it now... if you leave MB... you'll be feeling like we don't understand... "noone understands!!!" you'll be blaming us for not believing like you do, Oh.... you might SAY "I'm just leaving to get some space so I can think and work on myself". But you're already saying that you don't feel supported here, since we don't share your beliefs. sheesh. Always something.

Well, anyway.... I'm going to love you from a distance. I will be one less voice causing confusion in your head. You're a smart lady, and I know you will make your own choices, and I know you're capable of handling whatever consequences they bring.

hugs,
Faith1

Lordslady - the way I see it in a nutshell -
1. Your daughter is doing stuff that is extremely unhealthy and dangerous and your stand is - What can I do she is 16??
2. Your daughter probably thinks that you don't really care about what she does because you are so caught up in the high "drama" of trying to get some guy to marry you..
3. You are a christian - not quite sure what that means anymore because you waffle back and forth from your beliefs and what your actual actions are.
4. You met this guy you really love him supposedly -
a. You gave him sex he wants more -
b. He doesn't like your daughter - but that is ok because she is difficult
c. He has brought up the subject of marriage because he wants to continue to have sex
d. Really I don't know why he is still hanging around becuse if we all think you are all over the place I cannot imagine what the heck he thinks...

You may have been dating him for so many months exclusively - but you don't really know him he lives far away - you guys are way to apart on so many issues...

And I don't care if your daughter is mean or difficult - as a mother there has to be a way for you to help her - She drinks, she does drugs, she doesn't go to school - she sleeps with men - she may even live with men....
To me you are not a failure at this relationship with this guy - but as far as your daughter goes - that is the one realtionship that you should be concerned about... And I think this people here are wonderful they are really taking time out of their lives to help you - you just won't listen...

"There are some things that, as I think on them, cause me discomfort but they're not things I feel comfortable posting here as this is not specifically a Christian message board and some here don't share my level of belief or understand my desire to honor God."


Okay, you have mentioned this many times and I'm sure I"m not the only one who resents it a bit. Who cares if we don't have your EXACT level of belief?? Aren't we accepting of that, and trying to help you? I told you about when I "cut off" my BF. No, it was not for the same reasons as you, but WHO CARES?? I was trying to share with you how my supportive BF was, and guess what? He didn't share my belief either, but it didn't matter because he respected me and supported me. We may not all agree with you, but we are respecting you and trying to help you.


CM

LL, can you really say we don't share your level of belief? Maybe we don't believe the same things you do, but we all trust in a Divine Plan and God's goodness to us.

We are created in God's image and among those attributes we share with God is Free Will and a Soul, Spirit, etc. The Holy Ghost lives in us all.

Now, God is giving you all the tools you need to save yourself in this life and the next. Start using them for heaven's sake. 'Cause obviously God is refusing to ride into the rescue with banners flying and play fairy godfather to you. And he certainly isn't send a man to do it either. This is YOUR task. Your quest. Your pilgrimage.

Wasn't going to post for a while because I have frustrated everyone. But why not share the lastest. Call it drama, call it whatever you want. All I know is that it appears that there is no way out of this but more pain.

R and I have gone from "practically proposing" to our conversation yesterday where he finally admitted after doing much thinking (and listening to some of my concerns) taht he can't marry me in March, he can't marry me in June, he can't marry me for 2 years. And it's not a 2 years to get to know me thing. There are three main issues:

1) His daughter graduates in 2.5 years. She wants to come live with him starting next summer if she can buck her mom and get custody changed. She wants back in her old school system, and he's going to be there to help her if she chooses that.

2) My daughter. It's not so much who she is, but how she treats me and how I have no control over her. He doesn't deal well with that. He hates listening to how she treats me, and knows it's my issue to deal with, not his. He agrees that it's a product of her upbringing, and that she's really had no father figure, but still he has to admit that it is a big issue for him. He doesn't deal well with lack of respect from children.

3) Dating long distance for 2 years with no intimacy is almost impossible, because it severely limits time together. We can't spend weekends together. We can only spend a portion of a weekend day at best, and maybe one evening per week. That's not conducive to growing a relationship.

We talke about a lot of things yesterday on the phone, and I realize it's as difficult for him as it is for me. He said he's felt for the last six weeks like there's a noose around his neck, and that there's no easy answer.

So, here we are. He came over last night and we went out on probably the most painful date I've had in my life. (Note: never watch the movie "Munich" if you're already in a depressed state.) He took me to dinner and a movie, and then dropped me off at home. No hugs, no kisses, no touch, no anything. He told me he was going to think of me like a sister because it was less frustrating.

So I asked at the end of the night, "should I expect another date?"

His answer, "I can't answer the dating question. You should expect continued communication."

I can't begin to explain my feelings. I didn't sleep last night because I kept dreaming about him calling me, or things going right with us, and then I'd wake and realize it was just a dream.

I'm totally sick of feeling how I feel, which has gone on for nearly 2 months now...the longest I've ever felt this bad. I'm getting really scared that I'll never snap out of this depression/anxiety stuff amd feel normal again and that eventually it will just take me over the edge and I'll snap and do something really crazy. What if my brain has just gotten out of whack and it can't be fixed? There are people out there who suffer forever because nothing works for them, not meds, not anything. They eventually go nuts, or commit suicide.

LL

DRAMA!

I'm so glad he is finally seeing the light and walking away from you while HE still has his sanity. It's quite obvious to everyone else you have held him hostage long enough.

Kudos to him for looking out for his daughter first...which is something you should learn how to do.

Go work on yourself rather than feeling sorry for the drama you create. It's time to grow up and get out of that teenager stage you have locked yourself into. No one is going to take care of you but you...it's time you faced that fact. No man will heal you.

Sorry to be so rough but I hope R means it and he moves on to someone who isn't so dependent on a man to survive. You aren't setting a very good example for your impressionable daughter. The wife and mother she will be one day will be reflective of you. Sad but true!

LL,

There's an easy way out. BREAK UP WITH THE MAN! Basically, he's already broken up with you, that's the "I'm going to think of you as a sister," and "You can expect continued communication." Well, actually, I think it's more that he's not going to burn any bridges, just keep you around in case.

Unless you want a whole lot of pain for a looooong time, you should cut off all communication with this man. Yes, it hurts, but it's like a band aid. Rip it off quickly and it hurts. Rip it off slowly, one hair at a time, and it's torture.

Why?? Why would you want more dates like this?? I think he did you a favor by basically telling you that it's all over. Maybe now you can start healing and moving on. Although I suspect that when his hormone level rises high enough again, you'll be the first to know and misinterpret it as a sign of things improving:(.


All I can suggest is go back and read the Toxic Love link I posted earlier.

AGG

You can suggest it...but she won't do it...it's not what she wants to hear or do.

She's not ready to heal, she's not ready for life as a single woman let alone a single mother. From all she has shared she wants a man to come in and rescue her and take control over her life so that she can blame them if things don't go the way she thinks they should.

She is averse to personal accountablity, which goes hand in hand with Self-Respect and Self-Confidence, but once she begins to take personal responsibility for her choices, and stops *needing* a man in her life just so she can (finally be HAPPY) and begins to work on those issues within herself (like finding out why she thinks she needs a man in her life)(Why she thinks a man will complete her) (why she thinks she can't handle being alone) (why she thinks she can't handle her 16 year old daughter) (why she thinks having sex with a man will make him love her even more, when the opposite is true, that a man will love her more if she has a greater respect for herself) she will gain both the self-respect and self-confidence she desires.

But those are questions she needs to find the answers to, and nobody here can answer them for her.

Right now she is stuck not knowing what the questions she needs answers to are (hint hint LL, I listed them) and until SHE is ready to seriously look at those questions and seek honest answers from within herself NOTHING any of us say to her will help.

I actually find it rather funny in a sad kind of way, she expects her 16 year old daughter to take responsibility for her life and her life choices but she refuses to do so in her own life.

LL, it's time for YOU to grow up and become the adult, it's time for YOU to start PARENTING your daughter, even if you don't think you can. Right now, I can tell you the main reason SHE doesn't listen to YOU, is because YOU don't live out what you tell her you want HER to live out.

Your so afraid of being considered a hypocrite that you don't parent your child, your afraid to set limits on her because YOU don't keep your own boundaries. Well, How is SHE going to learn? Aren't YOU supposed to be HER example?

I'm curious, how many of the men here would want to date someone this needy?

Regardless of what LL has to do to change herself (I'm not commenting on that any longer--she just doesn't get it)...I'm rather shocked at how manipulative and passive aggressive this man she "loves" is. Good lord...I would have to told him to take a flying leap after these comments...

Quote

He told me he was going to think of me like a sister because it was less frustrating.

My next question would have been "then why are we together at all"? I don't understand HIS reasoning---he wants to treat her like a sister, but he calls her and makes dates with her, forever stringing her along (or at least until she breaks down and has sex with him again)....

Quote

His answer, "I can't answer the dating question. You should expect continued communication."

She should "expect continued communication"??? Is this man FOR REAL? LL--how can you permit ANY man to speak to you in this manner? He is so condescending! He KNOWS you want him so badly that you're willing to let him WALK all over you! Get a hold of yourself and read the writing on the wall--this guy is an A, #1 JERK.

*shaking my head*

I wouldn't marry your bf (or whatever he is) if he was the last man on earth...honestly. He stinks as a person.

I know some of you know this story and some don't but I feel the need to post again a little history on my daughter, so that you understand the full situation here, and don't think she's just a normal teenager who is a little on the ornery side.

I'm not saying I've been a great parent. I've been a very poor parent, not by not being there for her, but by wanting so much to believe in her when no one else did that I've allowed her to walk all over my boundaries.

My daughter is a child who needed two strong parents from day one. Everyone close to me has acknowledged this. She didn't have that. She had a mother who tried, and a father who undermined the majority of the discipline and rules because if he let them do fun things, or forbidden things, I believe he thought he could 'buy' their (DD and DS's) love that way. Didn't work so hot with my DS. He has his own issues, but at least has his head on straight (sadly, not in the way if biblical beliefs, but I can only pray there) and is a successful adult student. However, my son was always much closer with me and never really bonded at all with his father. They didn't understand each other at all, and they don't share similar personalities.

My daughter and my ex are carbon copies of each other. They have the same personality. And while she was always very needy when it came to wanting to be with me as a child, she was very much a "daddy's girl" if it came to having fun because if mom said "no", she knew she could get dad to say "yes".

And this girl has struggled since day one in school but it took until 4th grade and a change in school systems to get an official ADHD diagnosis, so by then she'd missed oodles of basics. We put her in Sylvan Learning Center for 6 months, to no avail. We've tried various meds--some didn't work, some did to an extent, but it doesn't matter because when she reached Jr. High, she refused to take them. And once she hit the point where she had to do homework (again, Jr. High), she plummeted. She failed to bring it home, I work so was unable to be there when school let out to pick her up and make sure she had it.

At the end of 8th grade, she discovered she could skip classes. At the beginning of 9th grade, her intro into high school and a very tough transition for a kid anyway, she was dropped from her special ed program AND her father started his affair with his now fiancee.

I fell apart at that point. I was trying to save a marriage to a man I'd been with for almost 20 years who I loved, despite the chaos of our marriage. I was working full time and then some because as he walked away, I was solely responsible for the house, our health insurance, everything. And at the same time, she cut more and more school (I'd drive her there each morning, watch her walk in the door, and then who knows where she went--the school authorities couldn't keep track of her in the building). So she was expelled for truancy at the age of 14.

At that point, her school had thrown up their hands and were going to put her in some independent study thing she could do at home. That is NOT effective for ADHD kids, so I fought tooth and nail to get her into the alternative school, even though they were skeptical because of her age and maturity level.

Off and on I'd taken her to different therapists to try and get a handle on coping with the ADHD, which by this time had also been diagnosed as ODD. Therapy was a bust. She refuses to even talk to them. She'd just sit there and say, "uh, huh.." and when we'd leave, she'd tell me how much she hated them.

There was a point during the time my marriage was ending where she stole $200 from my wallet. I turned her in to the cops. It took a LOT of talking and prodding to get them to even file a report. They looked at me like I was crazy, filing on my daughter. But I did it because one of her therapists thought it might get us some help in the way of a tracker or someone to help me hold her accountable. What it did, combined with some earlier runaway reports I'd filed on her, was put her on a probation that if she broke, she might have ended up in foster care. I didn't want that at the time. I truly felt she was better off in her own home. I just needed help. But it's irrelevant, because she didn't break her probation so it all ended with no consequences.

The alternative school didn't work any better, because she's so far behind on all her skills, she doesn't do well in a structured classroom setting, and because she hated all the students there...she fought it and let things slide and eventually her grades dropped to the point she got kicked out of there, too. But now she's 16. Iowa law allows a child to quit school without a parent's permission at that age.

Her behavior is out of control. For example, I came home Friday night from my ladies' group and found probably a dozen kids in my house acting like 5th graders, being loud and obnoxious, with food thrown around my kitchen floor. This was 12:30am. I talked to her..she got smart with me. I told them all, "Be gone by 1am!" They were. Then I talked to her again, and I got nothing but attidude, and her saying, "I didn't make that mess..THEY did!". Very true, but they were YOUR guests in MY house. Control them.

I can't set boundaries, because I work. I'm usually not home until 7pm or later. She leaves during the day and goes where she wants. The only thing I can do which I've not done yet is lock my door at night so she can't get back in. That is still an option. I took away her cell phone and quite giving her any kind of money when she quit school. So the only thing I give her is food, a roof over her head, and her internet access, which she doesn't use all that often because now her BF is back here.

R's issue with her is exactly this...that she shows absolutely no respect, that she uses obscenities whenever and wherever, and finally, that I have no backbone to stand up to her and if nothing else, reclaim my own house. I agree. I stink at boundaries. But she breaks no formal laws, so the state has no reason to pursue her or offer any kind of help. They have much bigger fish to fry.

So the current situation with her is this: There is a guy who arrived here a week ago from Salt Lake City. They think they're going to shack up together. Right now he's in my house, despite my telling her he wasn't going to stay here. While he has obviously no biblical beliefs and he's not very careful with his language, he shows much respect when it comes to being friendly and helpful and busting rear to take care of things around here. And he was not a part of the partying going on Friday night. He was quietly sitting on the sofa with my son playing video games, looking rather disturbed at everyone else, including my daughter.

So, although I know I have every right to boot him out this instant, I have made the decision that since I'm running a hotel of sorts anyway because my adult son is back from college for another week and his long-term girlfriend is pretty much attached to his hip, I have given my daughter and this guy ONE WEEK (ending next Friday) to find him anotherh place to stay.

We had a long talk tonight, the three of us, about places he could look for job, about how much apartments cost, about close places to the bus route, etc. My daughter is dead set on moving in with him. I had the whole Christianity discussion with them, and she is aware of why my current relationship is dying and how I feel about sex outside marriage.

I hate that I'm basically allowing a child to move in with someone. But I truly see no other options. I don't have the ability to force her to stay here, because I'm not here 24/7. This has been the issue for the last 2-3 years. Her last therapist, the one who told me she didn't want to see her anymore because until my daughter decided she needed help, there was nothing anyone could do...told me that all I can do is set boundaries I can live with and enforce them.

In all honesty, my relationship with my daughter isn't all that bad. She talks openly and honestly with me, moreso than I ever did with my own mom. But my daughter respects no one...not me, not her school authorities, not even the law (she once used the "F" word to a cop when he brought her home after one of her runaway episodes a couple years ago.)

And all this comes from a girl who, when she was little, was the sweetest, most caring child one could meet. But she struggled even then with being different and not fitting in with the normal crowd. So as she got older, she found the crowd she fit with, and it's the wrong crowd. And sure, I can stop her from hanging with them in the house here if I choose to, but I can't stop her from leaving the house and doing whatever she pleases with them elsewhere.

This is not what I ever dreamed for my child, and I do feel powerless to change the course of her life. I truly believe she's the only one, with God's help, who can do that.

This morning on the way to church (which I cried through, because the sermon and all the worship songs hit so close to home on multiple levels), I was so angry at everything (at her dad for not being there, at her for being so selfish and hurtful, at "R" for the current situation, and frankly at God, because I don't understand what he wants or why he won't help me feel physically better). I just screamed at the top of my lungs in the car. Unfortunately, it didn't help. It just gave me a sore throat.

Add to all this some financial issues I have because of a year-end bonus that was expected that now can't happen because our company is cash-strapped, and that my car is again making weird noises and I have a dog with an open wound on it's leg that hasn't healed in 2 months (looks like a lump; I'm betting cancer), and then throw the icing on the cake...the "R" issues.

I am depressed, as in officially "clinically depressed". The meds aren't helping to clear my head, and so rather than being able to think clearly, I just have tons of muddled thoughts. And now I'm having insomnia issues. I'll fall asleep fine, and then wake in the middle of the night after having some wonderful dream that I realize isn't true, and I'll lay there and toss for 4 more hours which is extremely frustrating because then all I want to do during the day is lay in bed.

Oh yeah, and then I went to leave for church this morning and noticed this yellow stuff all down one side of my car. I haven't driven anywhere since Friday night to the Ladies' Group, so it appears that while I was there, someone egged my car in a major way. It's all frozen/dried to my paint. Just one more fun thing to deal with in frigid temps...trying to get that stuff off before it peels paint. I haven't touched it yet.

But it does give me this feeling of a little gray cloud hanging over my head all the time.

LL

See nothing is her fault here either...everything was the ex's fault, daughter's fault, R's fault and God's fault....no reasoning with her at all...she takes no ownership at all as usual.

I wouldn't blame R one bit for running like ******...I don't see him having problems at all...he's a typical american guy...he should have told her where to go and how to get there a long time ago. Lots of men would have. He's willing to put a stop to this nonsense for HIS daughter..that speaks volumes. Anyone with kids knows that.

I'm done...LL you done burned a bridge here.

"She proposed that he stay with us. I nixed that immediately."

LL, you wrote this on December 26th. And now he IS AT YOUR HOUSE!!! It does not matter what you SAY, your actions absolutely, 100%, without a doubt are telling your daughter that you condone her behavior.

I wish I'd know you when your daughter was being so-called "dropped " from the special education program. THis was done WITH your consent. I would have reminded you that with a diagnois of ADD and ODD, and the fact that it DOES affect her education, the school is required by law to serve her. I wish she hadn't been exited.

Remember this: to your daughter, what you ALLOW, you CONDONE.

cm