Wow! What a thread! I want to address the entire board here. PodPerson started a thread called "Had an affair, and I'm NOT SORRY I did it". At the time of this writing it had 58 posts too it. I read through quite a few of them before writing this. I have been on this site now for well over a year. (Still a junior member Go figure!) Although most of you will read this and say, junior member, who's this, I still feel the urge to state a few things. I am a junior member because I haven't posted a lot on this site. Reason being is I can learn a lot from just reading, when I do post and ask for legitimate help I never have received too many reply's and thirdly, I don't want to get into debates.<P>Let's start with addressing the debate issues. When I Started on this board way back in 1998 there were a lot of posts and what I felt were legitimate responses to them. I learned a tremendous amount about marriage and feelings, and responsibilities. I found this site after purchasing Dr. Harley's book "His Needs Her Needs" I read the book cover to cover several times and started lurking around this site. Most everyone on this board I hold the highest regard for. There are those though that whether you realize it or not do most certainly come across as "Holier than thou". The person that I have followed and admired the most on this site is CA123 (Chris). Why? Because that man has taught me so much about patience, family, restraint, compassion, and down right how to be a "Real Man" than probably he will ever know. However, Chris, You shocked me with your response to 'PodPerson" stating that it wasn't her husbands fault for her affair. <P>I was shocked only for the reason that it takes two to tango. Chris has done his level best at excepting some of the blame for his wife's demise. Yet he still put that in his post to PodPerson's thread. Before I get blasted for that I want to express that I realize that the ultimate decision is the person having the affair. However it still takes two!<P>Maya:<BR>Quote:<BR>"Have you met Carlton? He's unrepentant too. You all can compare notes."<BR>This was your 1st response to PodPerson's thread! Religious, Condescending? Without a doubt.<P>Maya, I respect your posts for the most part. You are very insightful and I personally have learned a lot from you. But in the last, I don't know how long, you have made a lot of condescending remarks to others posts. Think for a minute, the person you are replying to might not be religious or not even believe in God. You will be a big turn off by quoting the bible and referring to religious belief's in general. <P>So on that note! To all, WE are all individuals whom have our own viewpoints and our own experiences to work with. We, to the best of my knowledge, come here to "Marriage Builders" to learn from one another's experiences to help us rebuild ourselves, for one, and our marriages for the second. As we have all seen the latter doesn't always apply.<P>So at this time, I am going to suggest that unless someone specifically asks for spiritual guidance that we all refrain from giving it. I do believe it is time to now separate "Church and State". It causes to many arguments and if its one thing I've learned in my 21+ years experience is that you never NEVER, NEVER EVER discuss "Church, Government, or Politics" in any form when amongst groups. You'll ALWAYS get an argument. Not to mention that it is a moot point considering the context of this forum. <P>Before I close my little preaching here, I want to Address Maya! Maya, I am sorry for singling you out of the thread, you by far are not the only one who has in the past "Quoted" righteous beliefs in posts. However, yours was "Short, Sweet, and to the point" that I chose it to pick on.<P>To all! I want you to understand in layman's terms that I do not want to start another thread of arguments. I want to express your right to believe and feel the way that you do, but I also have the right to express and feel the way I do, as well as anyone else that comes along and expresses the way they feel. <P>I Truly respect PodPerson's opinion on her affair. How many of you betrayers can HONESTLY say that at some point or another you didn't feel the same way? If you never did then why are you here? And more importantly, why did you even have an affair? And for you, the betrayed, how many of you can HONESTLY say that you did nothing wrong in your marriage to cause the affair? <P>Point is we are all responsible in some way for the actions in OUR individual relationships. <BR>And for those of you who disagree with me, all I can say is, you need to re-read Dr. Harley's stuff. Cause you obviously haven't learnt a thing.<P>In Closing, I come here to learn, Period. I want the truth. I want to know what people feel and why they feel that way. We all know that when going through something traumatic that it can feel like a lifetime. So embrace it and learn from these people. Don't ridicule them.<BR>Granted, PodPerson's post started off very antagonistic, however, she is still entitled too her opinion. Personally I want to hear "ALL" Opinions regardless of how abstract they may be to some. More importantly I would love to learn from others with some real constructive replies without so much emphases on how much we can criticize this person.<P>Thanks for your time!<BR>CO<BR>

couelle,<BR>Good to hear from you. It seems like it's been a long, long time.<BR>I haven't read "Podpersons" thread. I deliberately avoid threads that I know are going to anger me. Anger is one thing I don't need more of. However in response to your question, I can HONESTLY say...<P> I did nothing wrong in my marriage to cause the affair.<P>Yes, we had some problems,,as ALL relationships do,,however he CHOSE to have an affair, to lie, to cheat, to deceive, to betray,,rather than to discuss our problems and work out an amicable solution. Obviously, he had unmet needs,,as I ALSO had. You quote Chris as saying "it wasn't her husbands fault for her affair." He's right!! She chose to deal with her dissatisfaction with her relationship by turning to someone other than her spouse. <BR>I personally don't know anyone that is ALWAYS able to meet ALL of their spouses needs ALL the time. Green light for an affair?? Their fault? I don't think so. If I was such a terrible wife, I deserved a confrontation regarding his unsatisfied needs, maybe a request for counseling, maybe even a divorce but I did not deserve infidelity.<BR>

Hear-hear Nerlycrzy!! I sure wish my W at least tried to let me know something was wrong before she left me. Could it be that she WAS communicating and I wasn't listening? No, things went frem great between us to this horror as quick as you can turn off a light switch. Sure, we had your typical marital disputes, but NONE that warranted her betrayal.<P>Couelle - in regards to you "separation of church and state" comments. This is not a Federally subsidized website. In fact, I believe Dr. Harley's practice is Christian based. In my opinion, the vast majority of posters here find GREAT comfort and support through God. I, for one, was completely lost spiritually before this crisis. I thank God that He used it as a wake up call to me. I pray that He give me the opportunity to help Him turn my W's heart back toward Christ.

couelle,<P>Blush, blush. Thanks couelle.<P>I still stand by my comment, "There is no justifiable reason to have an affair." Yes, he was at fault for some of the marriage problems. Yes, he seems to have treated her like crap. Yes, he ignored her for many years. If she was unhappy and had done everything she could to "fix" the marriage, then she should have left before having an affair.<P>I agree it takes two to screw up a marriage and it takes to to have an affair, but the one choosing to have an affair, whether it "just happened" or was planned in some way is solely to blame for choosing that path. Do I accept that I put my Wife in that spot. Sort of, in that she did not express to me the feelings she was not having for me or the feelings she was having for wankboy.<P>This all make sense?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

I agree...what's the point of posting if we feel we can't be honest for fear of being blasted?<P>I think being honest (even if we know we've done wrong) is the only way to learn.

Couelle,<P>I want to thank you for this post. There were several other understanding people who posted to me yesterday without judgement and without blasting, and I appreciate you all. <P>Chris,<P>For the record, I never said my affair was my husband's fault. I must've said a gazillion times yesterday that I ACCEPT FULL RESPONSIBILITY for my own actions. But what I did say, and what I will stand by no matter what anyone else says is that my husband's behavior toward me made me FEEL the way I felt about myself and my marriage. I chose to have an affair after being in a marriage that sucked for so long. I chose to have the affair. That was me. But he DOES share responsibility for the state of our marriage. Everyone acts like it would be so much better for a person to divorce rather than have an affair. I have many friends who's spouses left them, no affair, but just didn't want to be married to them anymore, and it hurt them like hell. Their spouse left and never turned back, end of story. At least in my situation my husband and me still have a chance. If I had left, there would be no chance. I just don't see how divorcing him would have been better in the long run. So, I disagree with that line of thinking. He treated me bad, our marriage sucked, I cheated, and now we have a second chance. Is that so bad?

Ms Pod,<P>I know you never said it was your H's fault. couelle seems to have misinterpreted what I said.<P>I'm extremely glad you guys are working it out. How the second chance came about really sucks, but it's done now, so you two have a lot to learn & I wish you nothing but the best in your journey. It'll have plenty of bumps so hang on!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 29, 1999).]

Couelle<P>I believe, that myself and others on this site refer to God and spirtuality, to simply share with others what has helped us through our crisis. We are not stating that everyone needs to turn to God and religion to be saved, but that it is one tool that might be overlooked when it comes to repairing our marriage, and finding peace through all this madness.<P>I have told many people that I was Baptised in the Church, confirmed in the Church, and married in the Church. But the only time I have been back to Church was for someones wedding or funeral. Religion has not been a part of my marriage, and often times I questioned wether there really was a God.<P>One of the many books I have read during<BR>separation from my wife is, "How To Win Your Wife Back, Before It's To Late" By Gary Smalley. What I learned from this book has made a tremendous impact on how I am dealing with this painfull experience. It said if you have not asked God for help by praying, thats where you should start.<P>I decided what do I have to loose, I tried everything else, what the heck. I prayed for help in dhoeing me what directions I should go. I asked for signs of how I could save my marriage. The very next day I experienced a spiritual awakening, something that was very hard to explain to others, because I could not describe it with words that I knew. Ever since that day of an inner voice telling me to go to mynfavorite bookstore to see if they had a new book. I did, and found a book titled, Loving Solutions" Overcoming the Barriers in Your Marriage, by Gary Chapman. The awakening continued from there, and everything is much better, simply by seeing everything differently. That there was a reason for me experiencing all this pain. As many of you know, the greatest opportunity for learning and growth, is during crisis situations.<P>As with all other suggestions on this site. Take what shared information works for you, and get rid of the rest.

Couelle,<P>I admire and appreciate much of what you said, but I'm going to echo the sentiments of M Go Blue. If someone has found that spirituality and religion has helped them cope, it is entirely appropriate to offer that option as a way to help a fellow sufferer heal. I am not particularly religious, nor do I find it any more or less helpful than other things. However, I don't mind at least listening when someone offers religious or spiritual advice of any denomination. Who knows? It may help me.<P>It may help someone who previously never considered religion as an answer to their problems. Part of Christian religion is to "spread the Word." While often-times we read into that a sense of "holier-than-thou," it's really just good Christians being good Christians. I've found that MOST people that want to preach to me respond more favorably when I simply point out to them that I appreciate their sentiments, but I don't want to be bothered by their message.<P>To exclude Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, WHATEVER advice simply because it is religious would do us a great disservice here. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

May the token Jew chime in on the religious issue? <P>For the most part, I find the people here to be some of the most tolerant "heavy-duty" Christians that I've found anywhere. I've RARELY felt unwelcome here merely because I don't accept a particular religious system or interpretation of a particular book.<P>Chris and Lone Star, you are absolutely right about people who find strength in a particular type of spirituality to be able to say how it's helped them. I don't take any offense at that. It's when people have said things along the lines of "God has forgiven me even though I cheated like mad, and because I have accepted Jesus as my own personal savior, it means I will go to heaven, whereas you, you heathen Jew/Wiccan/Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist/Solar Pagan/whatever who does not believe as I do, it doesn't matter how faithful you are to your spouse, you are damned to hellfire eternal." <P>Even if you believe it, it's a disrespectful judgment. <P>FHL is one of the most spiritual, most "Christian" people I've encountered here, and not once has she been holier-than-thou with me.

coulle-I have to agree with Dazed and Confused, as for having the affair and saying whose fault it was, I think that while things may be the fault of the Husband for treating the wife so shabbily that there is NO Good Reason to go that far. That if there is a problem within the marriage that that problem should be communicated in such a manner that is communication. I have forgiven my H for the sin of having an affair but the hardest part was forgiving him for not communicating his problems and needs to me. These were my biggest issues with his affair, that I was never once told or had the communication that I needed to respond to his needs. He agreed with me later that he didn't tell me what was going on in his head either at the time. He may have tried and I wasn't hearing it, but he needed to say it in a way that I COULD hear it. Maybe that's the hang up with all of this. People do have some options before resorting to this length and maybe the ones that have been betrayed feel they weren't given the opportunity to make the situation better before the betrayers betrayed them. Does this make sense? I hope so. God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Dazed, I think that may have been the biggest compliment anyone has ever given me in my whole life. Thank you very much.<P>I have always tried to live my life congruent with my Christian values and beliefs and if if I ever came off "holier than thou" that would be a discredit to everything I live for.<P>In response to this thread, however, I for one can not seperate my faith from my words or actions. A strong faith, regardless of your religion, is so much a part of person that it acts like a filter for everything that is processed.<P>My personal motto...which I have repeated a few times the last few days...is speaking the truth in love. Saying what you really think or believe, but in a way that builds someone up, never as a club to kick someone when they are down. Never repay evil with evil.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

VERY WELL SAID COUELLE!!!

Well, Couelle, I owe you an apology for offending you with my "religious" posting. Pod's apparent unrepentant posting got the best of me, and my sarcastic self got out the door without a leash.<P>Pod has since told us that she's really NOT what she appeared in that original posting. Misrepresented herself I guess, because she doesn't sound ANYTHING like her very first posting ... I am sorry Pod.<P>However, I will not apologize for my belief in God and in His Risen Son, Jesus. I will not apologize for letting others know what He's done and IS DOING in my life. In fact, if I didn't proclaim His name and his mighty works, I would stand accountable for those that I had an opportunity to reach, but didn't because I was too bashful or afraid of being slammed for my beliefs, and I stayed quiet.<P>In my head it the re-occuring vision of one of you standing in hell as I stand in heaven, and you're screaming "Why didn't you tell me???????" That tears me up. <P>So I will continue to proclaim the Good News to all that will listen. After all, we are the reason that He gave His Son ... He loves us ALL and wants us with HIM! I'm very grateful for that.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 30, 1999).]

Oh brother ... double post.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 30, 1999).]

Maya,<P>I accept your apology. But, I do not believe that I misrepresented myself. I shouldn't have said that I would cheat again, because that is not true. I won't ever cheat again because I will no longer put up with the crap I did before. If my husband begins to act a fool again, he will be left. Point blank. I was angry when I posted, so that's how that slipped out. But everything else I stand by. I have repented my sin to God, and I am sorry that I felt I had to resort to such a thing. But I do not consider myself a lowly person. I reacted to my screwed up situation, like alot of people do. I wish my situation and marriage hadn't gotten so screwed up. But all I can do now is fix it. Thanks for the apology.