See prior "Earthman" posts for history. W had EA, one night PA, serious nervous breakdown, now on ADs and in recovery. All has been really well but... I need to deal with my feelings of fear and anger over current situation. Oh, PA was over a year, there's been NC since 5 months (W always called OM) and W told me about PA 4.5 months ago. I know about EA from journals. Long story...

Anyway... W recently touched base with old co-worker and the emails are usually business but sometimes, OM asks her for "pictures" of herself and asks about getting together for a "drink".. nothing graphic but he makes flirtatious comments about how she's his type, ethnically, and joking about how he never got over her, etc.. I'm kind of ok with the "your my type" stuff (well not really considering) but what's with the asking for pictures?

So they met for lunch, in public and I think with someone else there and the post meeting/follwup email from OM to W said nothing that would remotely signal anything happened but W tells me that OM is a business contact for future work and that she never liked him that way, etc...

The question me and the therapist keep asking is why doesn't W set boundaries and entertain inappropiate comments if this is more business contact than personal. She worked with the OM for 5 years, but they hadn't seen each other in over 6 years and the NEW dialog is so racey??

Am I being too conservative or should I continue to express my concerns and how it hurts me and our marriage if she entertains such behavious from men.. when I'm not around..

Oh... and W have never told me about the photo requests or the flattering comments in the emails.. she did forward some jokes and stuff that he sent so she's not hiding that she's talking with him....

I need to not LB with my jealousy.. I asker her if she was meeting "her friend" last night instead of addressing him by real name and she got pissed over that... I shoouldn't have done that. Things have been so good but I've been through so much and have fears...

What to do?

and can I/will I ever tell her about the email survelliance?? Do I have a right to snoop?

Your wife has proven that she cannot maintain proper boundaries with the opposite sex. I would insist that she end contact with this man.

Flirtatious comments are never okay in the workplace, and especially not when one party is married.

well.. it's not technically the work place.. he's a business owner and W is a freelancer/consultant.. and they were co-workers at one time..
They worked together at a company 6 years ago.. and stayed in touch.. the entire department has stayed in touch.. spouse dinners every year, etc.. .some are still some of my W's closest friends but this guy wasn't.. in fact, she had issues with him when they did work together.. she always complained about his surfing the Internet all the time, not follwoing through, etc..

What does insist mean and how do I do that? With the help of our MC? On my own? She told me she has no feelings for him and that he's an opportunity for her for freelance work.. networking, etc.. that's great and people talk about non business and she hasn't instigated.. but he clearly is... and I can't address it since I'm not supposed to know about the flirty emails.. she doesn't share those with me.. although she has sent me an email from him that I used to confront this issue in our last MC session.. about how I feel about it and how it hurts me...

I don't want to be one of those guys who tells his wife what to wear, whatr to say or not to say etc.. she may in fact be flirtatious ( took me 10 years and an EA/PA to find out) but maybe she is and likes the attention.. OR.. maybe she doesn't ASK FOR IT.. but simply doesn't know HOW to set those boundaries for fear of severing a relationship..

We'll keep at this one in MC.. I just want to stop feeling the need to snoop and she hasn't engaged him.. as far as I know...

God. to think she could ever do something again after all we've both been through.. it just blows my mind.. Therapist says she doesn't think like me and it could happen again.. I can't live with that sometimes.. you know..

anyway.. we are doing great.. talking, snuggling, sex, etc.. and most importantly, communicating effectively thanks for MC and MBs..

thanks all for that!

Excuse me, but aren't these red flags that another EA (or worse) is a distinct possibility? I think a MUCH deeper exploration is in order as to why she hasn't disclosed these contacts with you.

This isn't being transparent.

Additionally, neither of these meet the Dr. Phil test. To paraphrase, if you wouldn’t do it in front of your spouse (i.e., with his/her full knowledge) then it’s cheating. I love that definition and it seems to me it applies in darn near every situation when you’re uncertain about the meaning of some unexpected event.

I don’t think she’d accept without question or send “flirty” emails if you were standing behind her watching her open and write emails. Similarly, would she be “flirty” with another man if you were standing at her shoulder? If she would…

Personally, I think you need to be very cautious.

EM,

You clinched it for me with this one...



Smells an awful lot like you are wrestling with this in your own head because it bothers you and you don't want it to. Smells an awful lot like rationalization. (BTDT myself).

If it is a boundary, it is a boundary. If it makes you uncomfortable you should tell her. She SHOULD understand. I mean, she was involved with the guy, right? Ending contact may hurt her career, but if HER boundaries where in the right spot a while ago, she wouldn't be in this situation.

So you say "ABSOLUTELY no contact with this guy." (In a nice, non-love-busting way.)

The she says "Up yours, you don't run my life.."

What do you do then? Do you leave at THAT point? If you don't, is it really a boundary?

And if you find it isn't, what are you worried about?

Time for some soul-searching, my friend. What are you willing to put up with? And what might you put up with if this continues?

NCWalker

Wow. Well, if I were in your shoes I would do this first.

Go back and RE-READ your above post, and tell us what you would tell a friend (or even anonymous Joe) who stated a similar story and asked the same questions. What I often find is that people usually know that the answers are, they just need a little prodding.

I really have to wonder what you mean when you say "all is really well". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> in your recovery. What do you define as "well"?

I don't mean to be a jack A$$ here, but dude, you need a little smelling salt...so you can appreciate the "coffee" aroma. I don't think you are operating on all cylinders here. You can't possibly be.

I am gonna refrain from saying much else, because truthfully, I don't think you are in a position to "take it well", and may just see it as not "supportive".

There are many others who can hopefully enlighten you.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

No, NO.. she was NOT involved with this guy.. ever.... please see previous post..

she had a PA (ONS) with someone she had a thing for well before she met me.. addiction if you will..

this new guy is someone she worked with for 5 years.. they hung out when they worked together.. NOTHING HAPPENED.. only recently, after the EA/PA (ONS) with someone else is she now reconnecting with ANOTHER OM.. a co worker from the past who may be able to help you with consulting opp...

I'm not leaving a 10+ year marriage with 2+ small children because my W, who made (1) mistake, is emailing an ex-co-worker... what are you telling me about boundaries? she needs to understand how to set boundaries relative to what I think is appropriate..

ok.. so I'm in denial and don't want to LB and can't fathom in my wildest dreams that she could ever do that to me again..

what should I do? Demand that she stop talking to an ex-co-worker because I've been snooping on your emails and have uncovered that he's hitting on you and you let it go on..

OK, Earthman....I can sense your frustration. Did someone tell you to leave your ten year marriage with two small children over this email? I will have to go back and review the thread.

You say that your WW had an "addiction" with the first OM and had a ONS (trufhully, I can personally speak from experience here), an "addictive" realtionship of this kind, usually does NOT involve just a One night stand. SO, I would probably rethink that one. Trust me, I thought the same thing.....BUT WAS VERY WRONG.

I think the very fact that your WW is AGAIN engaging in these types of "emails" is very very discouraging. Once again, nooone is telling you to get a Divorce, but you sure as hel* should get out of this river (in Egypt) that you are bathing in.

As to what you should do? I won't tell you my opinion, as it is NOT going to be something that you want to hear. So I will be "supportive" and at least tell you that Snooping in this case is wholely warranted. I wouldn't feel an ounce of remorse for doing this, given your Wife's previous acts of betrayal.

What I see from you is alot of rationalization for your WW actions. That will have to be the 1st thing that you "86" if you hope to get over "this one".

Goodluck

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"OK, Earthman....I can sense your frustration. Did someone tell you to leave your ten year marriage with two small children over this email? I will have to go back and review the thread."

ncwalker implied leaving if I felt that boundaries were crossed over what?? my wife emailing an ex-coworker because he's a man... or if he's being flirtatious and she's not setting him straigt..

WHEN, HOW AND DO I EVER CALL HER ON THE FACT THAT I'VE READ THE EMAILS OF HIM HITTING ON HER IN THE EMAILS AND HER, WHILE NOT EGGING HIM ON, IS NOT TELLING HIM THAT IT'S NOT APPRPRIATE. WHEN DO I GO FROM INSECURE SPOUSE TO PARENT TELLING TEENAGER GIRL WHAT SHE CAN AND CAN'T DO AND HOW DO I KEEP IT FROM BACKFIRING ON ME?

"You say that your WW had an "addiction" with the first OM and had a ONS (trufhully, I can personally speak from experience here), an "addictive" realtionship of this kind, usually does NOT involve just a One night stand. SO, I would probably rethink that one. Trust me, I thought the same thing.....BUT WAS VERY WRONG."

I CAN SAFELY SAY THAT IT HAPPENED ONCE. GEOGRAPHICALLY AND SINCE WE WERE NEVER APART FOR THE ENTIRE MARRIAGE PLUS OTHER REASONS I CAN'T DISCLOSE. I'M A NEW YORK STREET KID AT HEART SO PLEASE TRUST MY JUDGEMENT SOMEWHAT MORE THAN OTHERS..

My W has always had male "friends".. many of which she did not sleep with..

So now comes along this blast from the past who's she's obviously connecting with only 3 months after all ****** broke loose.. can I really tell her to cut it off with him? He's also communicating with other F co-workers, who are close friends with W and who are getting some work from him now, which was my W's intention all along.

Could this guy just be harmless but flirty? Should I care? I pressed W about the tone of his emails and the context of the dialog and she has YET to tell me once that he asks for pictures or that he's pushing to go out for "drinks"..

Like she could drink on ADs...

Am I a jealous nut due to her prior EA/PA or just someone who knows better now..

Earthman, it's no time to be coy with her about this. She has crossed the line. You can tell her to cut it off with him and you should. If he is flirting, what do you think HIS motivation is? How do you think affairs get started.

Earthman:

NC Walker was not telling you to do any such thing (divorce). He was telling you to firmly state your boundaries and understand that allowing her to continue to trample over them is NOT stating any boundary at all.

In essence, you have to acknowledge and reconcile FOR YOURSELF what you can and can't live with.

I could NOT live with a wife who betrayed me MULTIPLE times and exposed me to diseases that could potentially kill me (AIDS, other STD's). This was a BOUNDARY that I COULD NOT live with. Me enforcing that boundary surely sped up divorce in my case. I live with my CHOICES......that's ok, becasue I made the choice willingly to enforce the boundaories that I needed to.

Perhaps that is not something you can live with. I dunno.

Your no doubt a man in crisis.

There are some people who will live with intolerable circumstances to stay married, and that is OK, as long as you understand it.

There is NO RATIONAL REASON why you have to even question the thought of confroting your wife on these despicable behaviors. She has already shown you she has the propensity to cheat and betray you. To have "true recovery" she needs to be an open book. She is not that now.

You had every right to "snoop".....you were indeed "correct".

You should take NC Walkers advice and form what you can and CANNOT accept.

Can you accept a woman who has many men friends (even though she did not sleep with them all)?

Can you accept a woman who flirts and engages in maritally destrucitve behavior like she has done with these emails?


Can you accept the possible fact that your WW's choices to cheat on you are not borne out of an addiction, but are just her "true self"?

Just some food for thought.

Lem

You guys have to realize that W is thinking that I'm being irrational in my actions based on her reality.. which is that she's told me that she met him in public, that she shed a tear over mutual pain, and that he sent her emails... she doesn't know that I know about the suttle passes like you still look good.

I'm going to log off now and save this one for the pros. The next MC session is in two weeks and W and I are still talking every night about all this.. just wish she was being RH.. Denial, fear of hurting me, fear of hurting OM's feelings by telling him to stop, I don't know.

Again.. .12 years of marriage and she had a ONS... .and with alchohol involved... she made a mistake.. could she do it again after all we've suffered?? She's says no but.. we shall see.

I'm not blowing my cover yet.. need to see where this goes so I can see first hand just how far she could take something..

THEN I will know where I stand.. If I stop it (or try to stop it now), then I've only postponed her awareness of the issue until the next former co-worker/friend/etc.


Thanks all and Merry Christmas.. I want to focus on that ffor the next 72 hours... best time of the year, especially for the kids.

oh.. .and W told me that she doesn't see a life without me and that she wants to spend the rest of her life with me... she's not a fluffer and never, ever says what she doesn't feel, which is why I'm often optimistic on this board..

Just think... 20-30 more years and it's all over... all that's left are the posts...

I wonder how many people who have posted here have already gone on to the Great Gig in the Sky....

Peace all..

EM

Just for the record, W is clinically diagnosed with major depression, on ADs for life, and has had a history of mental illness.. a dynamic that is relevant IMO to the EA/PA..

I think I see the word "depressed" thrown around too easily here. Feeling down or sad about something and being debiliated to the point of not being able to get out of bed or take care of children is not the same thing..